on tongues?

[GQ Chris]

What do the reformed here think about speaking in tongues? Is it for today's Christians?

 

[xapis]

No, and this is coming from someone who was raised in the "pentecostal holiness" tradition. Gaffin's book Perspectives on Pentecost is probably the best treatment I've read on the topic. I highly recommend it.

 

[GQ Chris]

I am definitely going to check that out.

 

[Hammster]

I would say it's not normative, but there is nothing in the bible that definitively says that it has ceased.

 

[xapis]

Looking at it from the perspective of biblical theology, the manifestation of the gift of tongues in the upbuilding of the early Church has great redemptive-historical significance. Think about what happened at Babel. The languages (tongues) were multiplied and confused and the people were scattered into many tribes and nations. Then think about what happened on the Day of Pentecost. Jews gathered from every nation heard the Word of God directly in their own language (Acts 2:5ff.). With the spread of the gospel and the Church in the book of Acts, we see this gift being poured out alongside other miraculous events (healings, prophecies, etc.) upon Jews, Samaritans, and, ultimately, Gentiles.

I say these things have "redemptive-historical" significance because, like other such events (e.g. the incarnation, resurrection), they occupy a special, "once and for all" place in redemptive history. The miraculous gifts were necessary in that they confirmed the authority passed to the apostles by Christ. Once the foundation was laid and the church was rooted firmly in "the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3), these gifts were no longer necessary. We clearly see Paul passing the torch on to men like Timothy and Titus and instructing them on how to maintain an ordinary "word and sacrament" ministry, the type of ministry we ought to see in our churches today. Signs, wonders, and miracles are notably absent from the pastoral epistles.

Also, worth noting is the absence of these miraculous gifts from the writings of the early church fathers from the end of the apostolic era, on through the early post-apostolic church and the middle ages (see the quote from Augustine below), and to modern times.

"For those that are baptized do not now receive the Spirit on the imposition of hands, so as to speak in the tongues of all the peoples; neither are the sick healed by the shadow of the preachers of Christ falling on them as they pass; and other such things as were then done, are now manifestly ceased." —Augustine

 

[itisdeliciouscake]

I don't have any reason to believe that there is any reason why we should not have tongues today. I've never understood the people who claim that they definitely know that God doesn't use miraculous gifts such as tongues. (sadly MacArthur falls into this category... =[ )

What I do think needs to be understood is that NEARLY ALL of the claims of the miraculous gifts done today are false. Tongues for example, according to the Bible, should be done in an orderly manner (assemblies of God have completely ignored this obvious piece of Scripture) and should be able to be interpreted by someone with the gift of interpreting tongues. (or else speaking in tongues doesn't edify the body. On top of that I believe there should also be someone intensely knowledgeable in Scripture who can discern whether the message is biblical or not.)

Now, have you EVER seen one of the 'charismatic' (I HATE using that word to describe the 'modern charismatic church' because it simply means 'gifted' which ALL Christians are!!! Since when do they get to highjack that phrase?) churches use tongues that way? I certainly never have.

I however, DO believe that proper use of tongues and miraculous gifts happen today. I'm not seeking it, I may never see it, but that's ok with me.

 

[A New Dawn]

I am mostly a cessationist, especially in places where the NT has been translated into the local languages. I do believe that the gifts are for the building up and edification of the church, and mostly needed where there is no presentation of the gospel to lead the way. I have heard of instances where they were in evidence, but when the gospel (via the NT) was introduced, the need for the gifts diminished.

 

[DD2008]

What do the reformed here think about speaking in tongues? Is it for today's Christians?

No.

The only mode of revelation today in post apostolic times is the written word of God. All has been revealed in the bible that God ordained would be revealed. We are in the last age which ends in the final judgement.

 

[AndOne]

Chris Chris Chris - you had to bring this up didn't you...

I am a third waver - In other words I am Calvinist and believe that the gifts have not ceased. There are some prominent guys in reformed circles who also agree - Wayne Grudem, Sam Storms, Mark Driscol, John Piper, J. I. Packer, C. J. Mahaney, and Joshua Harris to name a few.

I suggest you read Sam Storms books "Convergence - Confessions of a Charismatic Calvinist" and "Introduction to the Gifts of the Spirit" for a Calvinist/Reformed perspective on this. Also Wayne Grudem devotes a pretty hefty chapter to it in his "Systematic Theology."

Having said all that - I was hard pressed to find any scripture whatsoever that clearly indicated the gifts of the Spirit had ceased not to mention plenty of indication that if they had ceased major chunks of the New Testament would be irrelavant. In short that is why I am among Grudem and Storms in affirming them.

Speaking in toungues is one gift I have not been blessed with...

I'll be back with some links from some prominent Calvinists supporting this view...

 

[AndOne]

This is an excellent perspective on the gifts not ceasing from a Calvinist perspective:

Experiential Calvinism and the Charismatic Gifts

 

[GQ Chris]

Cool, I will check out this info. I haven't made a decision on what I believe about tongues yet, but the times I have witnessed it, didn't conform in an orderly way with an interpretation as scripture suggests.

 

[cygnusx1]

What do the reformed here think about speaking in tongues? Is it for today's Christians?

"tongues" better translated "languages" was for a set purpose with a certain time limit , corresponding with it's distinctive use as a sign to the JEWS , it's done away .

what we have today is esctatic utterances 99% of which are certainly anything but languages thus they do not get interpreted ..... I could if I wished still speak in the repetitive sounds I got through Pentecostalism , but that would not be languages .

 

[AndOne]

Cool, I will check out this info. I haven't made a decision on what I believe about tongues yet, but the times I have witnessed it, didn't conform in an orderly way with an interpretation as scripture suggests.

I have seen it done properly and orderly. The Sovereign Grace Ministries churches (which are Calvinist) do it according to the model in 1 Corinthians. It is quite different then what you would see in a pentacostal service. Also many third-wave churches refrain from practicing the gifts in church services and restrict the practice to private or small group settings.

 

[mannysee]

I am unsure about this one.

I am aware of the accounts outside of the bible which report that this gift disappeared in the years following the scriptures.
Alan Cairns comes to mind (I like him alot) when he said, "Peter'd out".
Which would bring in the discussion of how much we should allow historical reports to contribute to a conviction about this subject.

In my first months of being regenerated I ran into a group here in Oz called The Revival Fellowship. In fact, I was baptized in water one night with them.

I remember being asked (co-erced would be a better word) to come to a prayer meeting to receive the gift of speaking in tongues.
There were half a dozen of us, sitting down and fervently praying.
One of the group -leading the meeting- was saying to me in an urgent manner, "Come on *****. Start saying anything. Come on!. . .That's it!....Come on ****!".
And thus I 'received' the gift of tongues.

Note that this group teaches that if you don't receive this gift, then you are not "saved".
They are considered a sect.

From there I spent 7? years in The Potters House aka The Door aka CFM.
(another sect. Regarded as a cult by some persons/media).

You would find yourself meeting together at 6am every morning for an hour and praying together out loud at the same time. Many speaking in tongues. Some rocking back-and-forth at the same time.

During the church meetings themselves (often 4 or more times a week), much lifting of hands and praising God in tongues loudly by most people.

In conclusion I look back and say much of this was the effect of group suggestion/hysteria.
To my mind (having read books on cult formation) it also had the effect of somehow 'brainwashing' people i.e. the long periods of very loud shouting in 'tongues' for extended periods of times does something to the mind which is not good.

I don't practice this anymore after having an experience one night by myself when praying. This was shortly before I left the group.
God revealed to me very clearly that what I was doing was definately not from him or acceptable to him.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

I have seen it done properly and orderly. The Sovereign Grace Ministries churches (which are Calvinist) do it according to the model in 1 Corinthians. It is quite different then what you would see in a pentacostal service. Also many third-wave churches refrain from practicing the gifts in church services and restrict the practice to private or small group settings.

I still think it's "faked" for lack of a better word. Nothing deliberate on the part of the one experiencing it of course(most yes, but I believe some are subconsiously doing it like it's real to them.)
I did it once praying for my step-daughter...I realized later that it was faked.
I got so tongue-tied in my fervent prayer for her health at the time I just blurted out nonsense.
It's embarrasing to admit but it happened.
I think that happens with a lot of people talking to GOD...but it's certainly not biblical tongues.
The supposed "interpreters" are all schisters IMHO.

 

[GQ Chris]

I still think it's "faked" for lack of a better word. Nothing deliberate on the part of the one experiencing it of course(most yes, but I believe some are subconsiously doing it like it's real to them.)
I did it once praying for my step-daughter...I realized later that it was faked.
I got so tongue-tied in my fervent prayer for her health at the time I just blurted out nonsense.
It's embarrasing to admit but it happened.
I think that happens with a lot of people talking to GOD...but it's certainly not biblical tongues.
The supposed "interpreters" are all schisters IMHO.

This is my feeling as well.

 

[AndOne]

I still think it's "faked" for lack of a better word. Nothing deliberate on the part of the one experiencing it of course(most yes, but I believe some are subconsiously doing it like it's real to them.)
I did it once praying for my step-daughter...I realized later that it was faked.
I got so tongue-tied in my fervent prayer for her health at the time I just blurted out nonsense.
It's embarrasing to admit but it happened.
I think that happens with a lot of people talking to GOD...but it's certainly not biblical tongues.
The supposed "interpreters" are all schisters IMHO.

Faking the gift is certainly possible. But I usually give the Christian experiencing the gift the benefit of the doubt. It's a luxury I have seeing as how I don't think the gifts ceased at the closing of the canon...

 

[A New Dawn]

Faking the gift is certainly possible. But I usually give the Christian experiencing the gift the benefit of the doubt. It's a luxury I have seeing as how I don't think the gifts ceased at the closing of the canon...

I don't think that they ceased altogether. I think the need for them lessened. Because it is possible to fake speaking in tongues, as well as most of the other gifts, I believe that God's plan was for the gifts to be used in places where the canon is not, to help build up and edify the new saints until the canon is introduced, or even printed in their language. When you look at people like Armstrong and Joseph Smith, and see what happens when one fakes gifts of the spirit, I think that their use is limited, and the reason the canon needs to be relied on.

 

[AndOne]

I don't think that they ceased altogether. I think the need for them lessened. Because it is possible to fake speaking in tongues, as well as most of the other gifts, I believe that God's plan was for the gifts to be used in places where the canon is not, to help build up and edify the new saints until the canon is introduced, or even printed in their language. When you look at people like Armstrong and Joseph Smith, and see what happens when one fakes gifts of the spirit, I think that their use is limited, and the reason the canon needs to be relied on.

I completely agree with you on this... Any word uttered or spoken; or any act that is contrary to scripture should be called out and discarded....

 

[heymikey80]

I'm a practical cessationist -- following Sproul's argument that the Spirit is under no compulsion to distribute all gifts, and He chooses the times to distribute them.

I also believe the gift of tongues was confused with ecstatic tongues among Gentile mystery religions. I don't really have a good handle on Christian treatment of ecstatic tongues beyond Paul's possibly rating it among the least gifts to be desired (though arguably it's either addressing it or not -- the arguments have been made both ways)