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On Tongues and other Gifts

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Josephus, Nov 28, 2001.

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  1. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +266
    Messianic
    As I mentioned, I am moving this here from the Round Tables to a more appropriate discussion forum:


    Schrack,

    There are certainly different types of tongues mentioned in the bible.

    The first type are the type of tongues for which there is no interpretation because someone else is able to understand it in their native language. This happened in Acts 2.

    The second type is the type of tongues given for the edification of the church. Such a tongue requires an interpretation for it to make sense to those listening, hence the reason for Paul's instructions.

    The third type is the type of tongues which your spirit gives praises to God as edification for yourself (which is why Paul said a tongue not interpreted only benefits the one speaking it and not anybody else).

    The baptism of the Holy Spirit was often followed by people speaking in tongues, and no one in the early church was denied the Holy Spirit's baptism. Not even a Gentile Centurion and his entire household. If the Spirit was given only for doctrine-making, and not personal edification, where then does the role of Counselor come into play if the Holy Spirit is silent towards your own spiritual and emotional needs? Does he not speak to you as He did with thousands of others recorded in the bible? How does one hear God without the Holy Spirit - for it is indeed He (God Himself) who communicates to us in many ways.

    How can one have a real relationship with something if they can't communicate with it?

    The Word of God is not what is bound between two leather covers. The Word of God is living, and it is the Spirit of God, whom gives life, real words for real people. Just as easily as God speaks to me, he gives me other words for other people, and sometimes it is the interpretation of a tongue someone else has spoken. Tongues require people to step out in faith, not pride, for it is that faith of working with God which gives glorifies God - and tongues is just one of many incredible ways God has provided to not only build up our faith in Him, but to build up and edify his church.


    In that same verse where Paul talks about prophecy ceasing, and tongues being stilled, he too says that knowledge will pass away. Let's reread the verse in 1 Cor 13:8

    Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

    The point about this chapter is about the unfailing nature of love, and how love is the most important means of all, and the only one that lasts. Paul mentions that just as prophecies will cease, tongues stilled, so too will knowledge pass away. If the context of this verse means that prophecy and tongues will one day cease, never to be seen again, then so too one must accept that the same knowledge that accompanied prophecy and tongues (since knowledge is indeed listed in the same category listing here) will also cease with them. Now this context, if true, would mean that the doctrines and teachings themselves which were a result of having the gifts of the Holy Spirit, would in fact cease, never to be seen again. In a sense, it is a self-defeating reality. Without the Spiritual gifts, the knowledge and understanding those gifts bring will simply not be. And if this applies forever, then our hope is truly lost.

    But as we can see, the context is not about future church history, but rather the context and focus of this chapter is the unfailing, never-ending, always-around perfect nature of love; for one can operate in the gifts, but if they have not love, it is for nothing.


    In 2 Cor 14:4, and 12 we can understand that there are two types of spiritual gifts: those that edify ourselves, and those that edify and build up the church.

    Why would anyone not want all that God offers to equip them for His work to build up the church? If gifts were given for the building up of the church then why would they have stopped unless it had accomplished its purpose of building a church? Is the church built-up? Of course not. Otherwise Jesus would have returned by now. The church is constantly growing, and it needs further building up until it comes to a point God is ready to come for her.

    Acts 14:39 and 40 is Paul's charge to not disallow tongues, but to make sure that everything is done in an orderly way.

    Mark 16:17 says "These signs shall follow all who believe..."

    I consider myself as one "who believes."

    John 14:16 says the Counselor (the Holy Spirit) wil be with you forever. Not for a few hundred years, not until the day the last apostle dies - but forever - and will be in those who are His disciples.

    One who counsels is one who talks to you and shows you things. If his purpose is twofold: build up you and build up the church, then we should expect the Spirit of God to opereate in our lives in that manner; manners further defined by the Apostles about what they are in specifics: words of knowledge, words of wisdom, word of prophecy, healing, tongues, interpretation of tongues. And the fruit that these gifts would produce: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Such gifts are exercised under order whenever Christians come together, and they are handled by the offices given of God to some people he has called to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up.

    Like a good soldier in the army of God, I need my equipping from the Spirit in order to do the work of God which I could not otherwise ordinarily do.

    The spiritual fruit in my life which follows in accordance with Galation's description of the fruit of the spirit is a testament to me that the day I recieved the Holy Spirit's baptism of fire was the beginning of a whole new level of relationship with the Most High - a relationship He desires to have with all of us, if we are willing. And "willing" is the key word.


    Because this topic is a nonessential Christian topic, I am moving it from the Round Tables and into the Workshop, if you'd like to continue it from there. :)
     
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  2. Just1ce4all

    Just1ce4all Guest

    +0
    Did anyone bring up that despite having hundreds of translations of the bible, not everyone has a bible, nor knows other languages? Speaking in tongues, biblically and even now, has been known to convey messages that only certain persons or people could hear, and would understand. It still happens to this day.

    Mark 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

    New, as in, not previously known. Either God inspired or you actually go out and learn. Evidence can be shown with how many translations of the bible there are. Heck, there's a Klingon Version in the making. Trekkies don't understand the KJV.

    So speaking in tongues is just speakin in another language, and has been known to be the work of God, speaking through someone who didn't already know the language because it was necassary.

    What language does God speak? You don't need a spiritual speech to communicate with God. He already knows english ;)
     
  3. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +266
    Messianic
    "What language does God speak?"

    Actually, I would probably say that the first human language that God created in man to speak was that of Adam and Eve, and that of Noah, and of mankind before the Tower of Babel, and the latest languages we have from that region are forms of Ancient Hebrew which later diverged into Babylonian and Semetic Hebrew as it is spoken today.

    Quite possibly the names written on Jesus's belt, clothing, and horse will be names of his identity written in Hebrew. :)
     
  4. Just1ce4all

    Just1ce4all Guest

    +0
    I tried making the point that God speaks all languages, because He is the Creator of all languages. He is the Master of Communication. No matter the language you speak, He can understand you better than anyone.

    And who's to say that his clothing will say things in Hebrew? Perhaps God will make it so everyone understands what is written, like it's written in our language. God is all-powerful, no? But that is theories, and dangerous. It's not worth disputing, won't make any difference whether we know the truth of that or not.
     
  5. Schrack

    Schrack Guest

    +0
    Hi Josephus,

    Well, I can see this is going to turn into one of those "lengthly" discussions. :)

    The first type are the type of tongues for which there is no interpretation because someone else is able to understand it in their native language. This happened in Acts 2.

    The second type is the type of tongues given for the edification of the church. Such a tongue requires an interpretation for it to make sense to those listening, hence the reason for Paul's instructions.

    The third type is the type of tongues which your spirit gives praises to God as edification for yourself (which is why Paul said a tongue not interpreted only benefits the one speaking it and not anybody else).


    Actually, there is only one gift of tongues, and according to the apostle Paul it is the God-given ability to speak in various "kinds of tongues" or languages, 1 Cor. 12:10. This gift can be used to preach the gospel to the lost in foreign languages; or, it can be speaking, praying, or singing in a foreign language during congregational services, which obviously would require interpretation. Now languages are meant to be understood, otherwise what is the sense of speaking? Consequently, you misread Paul when he speaks about the Corinthians' speaking in tongues and not being able to understand what was being said. He was not sanctioning this as the proper use of the gift, but rather was correcting them for their disorderly and confusing use of them. The gifts were not meant to be used for personal edification (as that is a selfish use of the gift); on the contrary, if they were to be used it was for the edification of the entire congregation, which is what the Corinthians were not doing.

    The baptism of the Holy Spirit was often followed by people speaking in tongues, and no one in the early church was denied the Holy Spirit's baptism. Not even a Gentile Centurion and his entire household.

    Actually, you can find a number of passages where people converted, got baptized, and were not said to have been baptized in the Holy Spirit. And the reason for that is very simple: the baptism in the Holy Spirit was never meant to be an individual experience. It was a congregational thing. Go look in your Bible and you will find it only occurred four times and always upon a particular {b]group[/b] of different people: first Jews, then Samaritans, then Gentiles, and finally upon a rebaptized (or we should say, properly baptized) group of believers. In addition to this, whenever baptism (whether that of the Holy Spirit or that of water) is administered it need never to be repeated. And this is why Paul then taught the Ephesians many years later that there is now only ONE baptism, and that being water baptism, which is the one that is to be perpetually administered since there will always be conversions. And once these converts are baptized and joined the Lord's church, they can then enjoy the benefits which the Comforter brought to the church when he was given nearly 2000 years ago.

    If the Spirit was given only for doctrine-making, and not personal edification, where then does the role of Counselor come into play if the Holy Spirit is silent towards your own spiritual and emotional needs? Does he not speak to you as He did with thousands of others recorded in the bible? How does one hear God without the Holy Spirit - for it is indeed He (God Himself) who communicates to us in many ways.

    One doesn't need the gift of tongues to hear God. How did people hear him before the gift of tongues was ever given?

    How can one have a real relationship with something if they can't communicate with it?

    You can communicate to God by prayer or song; God can communicate to you by the preaching and teaching of his Word. After all, that's what the Scriptures are there for, to make the Christian complete, thoroughly equipped. David said, "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path."

    The Word of God is not what is bound between two leather covers. The Word of God is living, and it is the Spirit of God, whom gives life, real words for real people. Just as easily as God speaks to me, he gives me other words for other people, and sometimes it is the interpretation of a tongue someone else has spoken. Tongues require people to step out in faith, not pride, for it is that faith of working with God which gives glorifies God - and tongues is just one of many incredible ways God has provided to not only build up our faith in Him, but to build up and edify his church.

    First, Jesus said his words are spirit, and they are life. So the Scriptures are alive and they do speak to us through God's Holy Spirit. Second, Paul said tongues are a sign to unbelievers, not believers. Therefore, they were not originally meant to be used in church, but that's what the Corithians began to do. And is in part why Paul put such restrictions upon the use of tongues in church.

    In that same verse where Paul talks about prophecy ceasing, and tongues being stilled, he too says that knowledge will pass away. Let's reread the verse in 1 Cor 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. The point about this chapter is about the unfailing nature of love, and how love is the most important means of all, and the only one that lasts. Paul mentions that just as prophecies will cease, tongues stilled, so too will knowledge pass away. If the context of this verse means that prophecy and tongues will one day cease, never to be seen again, then so too one must accept that the same knowledge that accompanied prophecy and tongues (since knowledge is indeed listed in the same category listing here) will also cease with them. Now this context, if true, would mean that the doctrines and teachings themselves which were a result of having the gifts of the Holy Spirit, would in fact cease, never to be seen again. In a sense, it is a self-defeating reality. Without the Spiritual
    gifts, the knowledge and understanding those gifts bring will simply not be. And if this applies forever, then our hope is truly lost.


    You have confused knowledge itself with the ceasing of the gift of knowledge, which was used to divulge divine information to the saints regarding things pertaining to Christ (e.g. Eph. 3:4). Knowledge itself did not cease with the ceasing of the gift of knowledge anymore than languages ceased with the ceasing of the gift of languages.

    In 2 Cor 14:4, and 12 we can understand that there are two types of spiritual gifts: those that edify ourselves, and those that edify and build up the church.

    I've already commented on the fact that I'm not one who subscribes to the idea that gifts were given for our personal edification, but only for the edification of others. As Paul taught, "Let every one of us please his neighbor for his good to edification. For even Christ pleased not himself...."

    Why would anyone not want all that God offers to equip them for His work to build up the church? If gifts were given for the building up of the church then why would they have stopped unless it had accomplished its purpose of building a church? Is the church built-up? Of course not. Otherwise Jesus would have returned by now. The church is constantly growing, and it needs further building up until it comes to a point God is ready to come for her.

    I did not say all gifts have ceased, but only certain ones which were used to dispense revelatory information. We now get that information from the Scriptures. But there is still a need for the gifts such as teaching, giving, ruling, and the like, gifts which in many church circles today receive far, far, far less attention than tongues. But they are in reality gifts which are far, far, far more important than tongues.

    Acts 14:39 and 40 is Paul's charge to not disallow tongues, but to make sure that everything is done in an orderly way.

    Of course. When the gift of tongues was in operation, why would anyone want to disallow them?

    Mark 16:17 says "These signs shall follow all who believe..."

    Yes, and the Bible shows us that they indeed did follow those who believed (like in the book of Acts). But that doesn't mean that they were all meant to be perpetual. When was the last time you saw an apostle?

    I consider myself as one "who believes."

    I am sure you do, and I don't have any reason to doubt you, but don't you think it possible that as a believer you could just very well be mistaken? Could it be that you have been taught incorrectly by well-intentioned folk?

    John 14:16 says the Counselor (the Holy Spirit) wil be with you forever. Not for a few hundred years, not until the day the last apostle dies - but forever - and will be in those who are His disciples.

    Yes, but the presence of the Holy Spirit is not a guarantee that every single spiritual gift would remain perpetually. See above.

    Like a good soldier in the army of God, I need my equipping from the Spirit in order to do the work of God which I could not otherwise ordinarily do.

    This is true. But try going into a country where you've never learned the language and see if you can preach the Gospel to them. You can't, and you won't, because you haven't the gift of tongues. Why is it do you suppose that before churches send off their missionaries to foreign lands, they prepare them first by teaching them the native tongues?

    The spiritual fruit in my life which follows in accordance with Galation's description of the fruit of the spirit is a testament to me that the day I recieved the Holy Spirit's baptism of fire was the beginning of a whole new level of relationship with the Most High - a relationship He desires to have with all of us, if we are willing. And "willing" is the key word.

    Well no one could have been more willing than me when I first became a Christian. I struggled with hearing both sides to this issue, and finally took it up with God to seek the truth of the matter. I asked him, that if the gift was still in operation, would he give to me so that I would know for a certainty. I am sure you can guess the answer that I got. And even without the gift, my relationship has flourished with the Lord for the past 14 years. And I am here to say that no one misses anything if they don't speak in tongues. Paul said he spoke in tongues more than anyone (and that is because he was in more foreign lands than anyone), yet he would rather speak in the church five words in his own understanding so that ALL might be edified. Now that should put some perspective on the issue for you.

    "Because this topic is a nonessential Christian topic..."

    I realize, Josephus, that this is the view of many (maybe only because people have heard it so often from Hank Hanegraff) but I would strongly disagree for the simple reason that through the gift of tongues divine revelation was given, and as far as I am concerned the Scriptures are the totality of God's divine revelation. One is not gonna get any more revelation than what's in the Bible, but for one to say that tongues is still in operation is to say that one believes in being open to extrabiblical revelation. And how many aberrant groups do we know that has used extrabiblical revelations to propogate their movement? In fact, how would you explain being able to believe in sola scriptura and the doctrine of tongues at the same time?

    SchracktheBaptist
     
  6. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +266
    Messianic
    What would you expect to do if God gave you the gift of tongues? Would you even know it if you got it?

    God waited over 400 years to give Abraham's decendents the land of Israel. 40 years for Caleb's reward for faithfulness. 30 years for Jesus to begin his ministry, and hopefully 2000 years to finally come back again.

    And how do you expect God to give you words in a spiritual language if you don't even bother to open your mouth and let him begin speaking through it - you and Him in unity of spirit?

    In regards to tongues, I don't think of this interpretation of one as "new revelation:"

    'My children My children, know how much I love you. You are my own, my beloved. Consider what you do today, and then consider my heart. Give up what pride and selfishness has brought upon you, and then seek my help to stand up to the temptations of the enemy. For times are comming that are more violent than you can imagine. I will be with you. Know that I love you and desire to be with you, you are My children. Says the Lord."

    How do you hear God's voice? Schrack, can you honestly say you've had a one on one coversation with God? The bible word is good, it is life and truth about God, but on the surface it's only one of many ways God can communicate to us. God isn't limited by the bible. But just as much, the words we hear from God are unchanging in their truth and and stature, thus we can test new words with the word already given. In that translation above, there is nothing there that contradicts the written word, nor in our spirits can we judge it not of God.

    It's sad to me to see people limiting their relationship with God to just the bible and one-way prayer. Granted, it is good, and a good starting point for the basics of any soldier of Christ, but just as we will forever be in the presences of the Most High in the eternities after the End of the Age, so too we can have a relationship with the Father as Jesus had a relationship with Him.

    Don't you see that the disciples made it their point to live and walk with the Father as Jesus did? We are imitators of Christ, not just readers about him. We have been called sons of God though the Spirit by which we cry "abba" Father, and like Jesus, have spiritual sonship relationship with the Father. And like all good Fathers, our Father wants to relationally know us, and he's provided Himself (the Spirit) as a means to do so.

    The scripture in Paul's day was the Old Testament. The letters that make up the Testament of the New Covenant are just that: testimonials about the life, times, and actions of those that heard, lived out, and died for the New Covenant. Of course, their words would match up what God has written through the prophets of old, and thus no "new" revelation would be there to contradict the Law and Prophets. Of course, since we are 2000 years removed from the life and times of Jesus, they (the apostles) remain our only believing authoratative witnesses, and thus their writings of what Jesus said and did must be and should be taken into account as scriptural references and words of God.


    Listen up, this gets good :)

    But I've often wondered: what is scripture? And I always come back to the same answer: all of it. But what makes scripture useful? Is it the exact words themselves? Is it the chronologies, the historical atrocities, the personal letters of commendation and recommendation?

    I think someone once said "all scripture is given..." for many purposes. Because like our country's constitution, we can derive all sorts of intentions from a variety of perspectives, and backgrounds - but namely the ONLY perspective and background that fully gives merit and credit to a piece of literature as becomming scripture; is that of God's.

    Thus you have chronologies being listed to prove who Jesus was, and stories of atrocities being used to illustrate biblical principles in action, and personal letters of recommendation as insights into the personal workings of the early church - but scripture, inasmuch as the principles themselves which we derive from the persepect of God, can only be fully understood from the perspective of God. Thus enters onto the scene man's limitation to fully grasp meanings and understandings, and thus becomes the reason for the Holy Spirit to give to each one of us the Spirit of Truth from which to discern such "living" truth for ourselves, never contradicting one another, and in total, perfect, and complete unity.

    That is scripture. But scripture isn't God. The Spirit is God, and Jesus is the living Word. It could probably be easier said that the Word isn't scripture, but rather the Word of God is written of in scripture. And this is the reason for inspiration: what to write down, what to include or not include. Not some gigantic revelation never known before, but rather the only revelation we see taking place throughout the entire bible is that of UNDERSTANDING that which was already there.


    The Word of God has been "written" long before the bible. We've only been taking the last 4000 years to discover the incredible beauty of it and write it down.

    The "basics" the "essentials" (one God, creation, sin, need for redemption) are already in existence in our daily lives, and in the cultures all around the word. This is one of the reasons why Paul says no one is without excuse to come to know God (Rom 1:20).

    My point is that "revelation" (that which we -you and I have access to) is merely understanding of that which is already there. You seem to equate tongues with some sort of revelation of new knowledge or doctrine. This is incorrect. The gnostics of Paul's day probably would support such a view, but certain that is now what Paul nor I support.

    Scripture as we have it is basically given to show us the Truth of God. Understanding (revelation) is the wisdom of applying it to our lives. Without the Holy Spirit, there is no understanding. Tongues or no tongues, revelation word, prophecy or not, without the Spirit of God to show us the Truth of what we read and see, we can easily be led astray by our own interpretations and imaginations.

    I can't imagine why God would want to remove this key feature and building block from His church after only a hundred years.

    What I don't seem to understand is the logic of the gifts of the spirit 'ceasing.' I seem to imagine in my mind some old 92 year old Christian who was only a thought in his mother's mind when she was at the feet Paul's protoge Timothy and being the last of his generation to possess the gift of tongues, seek desperately over 30 years of his remaining life to give that gift to another to pass it on in the congregation so desperately trying to hang on to every revelatory word the dead woman's now very old and dying son clings to the last breath to offer the congregation the last tidbits of revelation never before found or seen or implied or could ever possibly be interpreted from the Old Testament.

    And then to find no record written anywhere in the history of the Church of the shortage crisis of tongue-speakers for revelation knowledge.

    My answer is simply this: tongues were not given for new revelatory knowledge, but rather for the building up and edification of the church: namely - conviction of those listening to the interpretation to come and repent before God as the interpreter probably listed sins to exact details of the sinners there, and those same tongues were used by interpretation to give understanding of the times they were going through, and direction - such communication from God that proves that God uses more than what he used to communicated to the Prophets of old with. God now uses the Holy Spirit to manifest gifts in such precise order and magnitude that one becomes absoultely convinced of God's glory and purposes for themselves and for the church as a whole.

    "New" revelation was for the gnostics who believed there was more than what the old testament scripture was saying or implying.

    It comes as no surprise the Paul felt led to write by his own hand "see to it that you are not decieved..." a warning most obviously and logically found in the truth and testimony of the Spirit of God.

    These are just a few things to think about. I understand how some people wish to hold to Sola Scriptura. In a sense, I believe they are right to do so, but in another sense I believe they have the wrong definition. As I've countless said on many occasions: the bible is not God. The words contained in leather are not more important than what the Spirit says they are; but one thing is guaranteed: they are truth. The source of this truth comes FROM the (emphasis on THE) Truth Himself: the Spirit of Truth, Jesus Christ Himself, The Word we come to know as written on our hearts, and is God.

    How can we know that word written on our hearts if we can't even read it? If we read that word with only the bible, and without the Holy Spirit, we are at best looking at the truth He has written on our hearts through the limited blinders and glasses of our own perspectives. But with the Holy Spirit personally adapting and revealing to our lives His perfect will and His perfect truth (which we do find written in the bible) we have access to the clear understanding of the Word of God for our lives and for the church so that we ourselves live and walk with Him, but also (and more importantly from God's perspective) so that we edify and BUILD the church with that corporate understanding in unity and thus are able to grow as His children. So yes, you are right Schrack, the gifts are giving for the building up of the church...but you are wrong when you say they are not for us individuals because as individual we too are the church and body of Christ. And it is the purpose of the Church to glorify God, and I am sure God enjoys making that a reality through us individual Church-parts as well.

    It is the Holy Spirit that gives these gifts of understanding, not of ourselves, lest we should boast. Every interpretation and doctrine derived from all means except the Holy Spirit, is susceptible to error. But all interpretation and doctrine derived from all means including the Holy Spirit is truth and life everlasting, and something (rather someone) we die to ourselves and live for.
     
  7. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +266
    Messianic
    bump!
     
  8. solo66 man

    solo66 man Well-Known Member

    +2
    Those are big long arguements I will have to look at later.
     
  9. Hishandmaiden

    Hishandmaiden The Humble Servant Supporter

    +221
    Christian
    Private
    What an interesting food of thoughts.
     
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