On the value of Vaccines.

TLSITD · May 13, 2020

KomatiiteBIF said:
In these times of anti-vaxxers and plandemics, I have found myself asking the question of how deadly certain diseases were for society in pre-vaccine days. Such as Polio or the measles.

What does everyone here think or know about how deadly various diseases were, and how many lives have been saved since discovery of their respective vaccines?

Is anyone familiar with sources that provide explicit data and number of pre-vaccine deaths that can be used in justifying the value of Vaccines? For example, I recently heard that measles would kill up to 15% of people infected.

I think the benefit of vaccinations is a tricky subject for a few reasons.

For one thing, the world of today is not the world of yesterday. Hygiene, nutrition and sanitation have all vastly improved in much of the world, and these factors contribute to the overall health of an individual and his or her ability to fight off illness or his or her susceptibility to serious illness or death from a disease.

We also have more and better medicines and better medical treatments for those who become ill than we used to. The disappearance and decrease of many diseases can probably be attributed to those factors, in addition to whatever role vaccines may have played, and we would have to know the impact of those other factors to know how much we ought to credit vaccines for the prevention, reduction and eradication of once deadly diseases.

For another thing, the vaccine development process is tedious and expensive, and in order to get a vaccine to market and start making money on it before its patent expires, the companies that develop them skip trials to save time. They also add various ingredients to the vaccines to produce the immune response from the body that is desired to fight off the illness because using the dead virus isn't effective enough to produce that reaction. Those ingredients can potentially be quite harmful, but the companies are under financial pressure to get the vaccine out as quickly as possible in order to make a profit, so corners are cut that shouldn't be.

And then there is the question of whether natural inoculation through infection, with medicinal support for symptoms, isn't more effective than vaccines. That would be worth testing.

I would personally rather take my chances with the real thing and know that I had had it and that my body had acquired resistance or immunity to it than take my chances with whatever additives are in a vaccine and still not have the resistance or immunity to the disease that I would have had if I had just contracted it naturally.

pitabread · May 13, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
This is a good definition of health. However the role of the healthcare system in it is badly overstated.

What is health?: Defining and preserving good health

That's not a singular definition; there are multiple definitions and factors described. They also don't include any sort of metrics for measuring health, outside of mortality rate.

For example, they state, "A person who has good physical health is likely to have bodily functions and processes working at their peak."

How does one measure "peak" health? How would one know if they are at said peak?

I'm also not sure why are you think they overstating the role of a healthcare system as a factor for good health.

pitabread · May 13, 2020

TLSITD said:
And then there is the question of whether natural inoculation through infection, with medicinal support for symptoms, isn't more effective than vaccines. That would be worth testing.

We know that vaccines for existing diseases are far more effective than immunity via natural infections. The latter results in far more adverse effects for other diseases (measles, polio, etc) than a vaccine would.

Job 33:6 · May 13, 2020

TLSITD said:
I think the benefit of vaccinations is a tricky subject for a few reasons.

For one thing, the world of today is not the world of yesterday. Hygiene, nutrition and sanitation have all vastly improved in much of the world, and these factors contribute to the overall health of an individual and his or her ability to fight off illness or his or her susceptibility to serious illness or death from a disease.

We also have more and better medicines and better medical treatments for those who become ill than we used to. The disappearance and decrease of many diseases can probably be attributed to those factors, in addition to whatever role vaccines may have played, and we would have to know the impact of those other factors to know how much we ought to credit vaccines for the prevention, reduction and eradication of once deadly diseases.

For another thing, the vaccine development process is tedious and expensive, and in order to get a vaccine to market and start making money on it before its patent expires, the companies that develop them skip trials to save time. They also add various ingredients to the vaccines to produce the immune response from the body that is desired to fight off the illness because using the dead virus isn't effective enough to produce that reaction. Those ingredients can potentially be quite harmful, but the companies are under financial pressure to get the vaccine out as quickly as possible in order to make a profit, so corners are cut that shouldn't be.

And then there is the question of whether natural inoculation through infection, with medicinal support for symptoms, isn't more effective than vaccines. That would be worth testing.

I would personally rather take my chances with the real thing and know that I had had it and that my body had acquired resistance or immunity to it than take my chances with whatever additives are in a vaccine and still not have the resistance or immunity to the disease that I would have had if I had just contracted it naturally.

When hundreds of millions of people are dying, and a vaccine turns that number down 99% in the span of a few years, it isn't a question of if improved dietary practices were responsible for saving lives. It's simply a matter of knowledge that vaccines had saved lives.

OldWiseGuy · May 13, 2020

pitabread said:
That's not a singular definition; there are multiple definitions and factors described. They also don't include any sort of metrics for measuring health, outside of mortality rate.

For example, they state, "A person who has good physical health is likely to have bodily functions and processes working at their peak."

How does one measure "peak" health? How would one know if they are at said peak?

I'm also not sure why are you think they overstating the role of a healthcare system as a factor for good health.

We're back to square one then. You have to decide for yourself if you are in peak health (if it is even important).

The 'healthcare' system deals with sickness, not health.

pitabread · May 13, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
We're back to square one then. You have to decide for yourself if you are in peak health (if it is even important).

Which again means that all this discussion about health in the context of a population is moot.

The 'healthcare' system deals with sickness, not health.

Where I live, it's a lot more than that. Maintaining health can mean doing regular 'maintenance'.

For example, I get routine dental cleanings and checkups to maintain good oral health. I also go for annual doctor checkups, regardless of whether I am feeling unwell.

Catching things before they become a health issue is arguably better than waiting until one becomes noticeably ill.

If you have a healthcare system that only encourages people to use it when they are ill, then that's a problem with your healthcare system.

TLSITD · May 13, 2020

pitabread said:
We know that vaccines for existing diseases are far more effective than immunity via natural infections. The latter results in far more adverse effects for other diseases (measles, polio, etc) than a vaccine would.

I would agree that for certain diseases vaccines are the best treatment option. But I don't think they are always the best option, or that they should be the automatic first choice to combat a virus. Not all viruses are equal. Neither are all vaccines.

Strathos · May 13, 2020

If anti-vaxxers think that personal freedom should trump public safety, do they also think that drunk driving should be legal?

TLSITD · May 13, 2020

KomatiiteBIF said:
When hundreds of millions of people are dying, and a vaccine turns that number down 99% in the span of a few years, it isn't a question of if improved dietary practices were responsible for saving lives. It's simply a matter of knowledge that vaccines had saved lives.

Every situation is different. I didn't say that vaccines are never useful or the best option, but that there are other factors and treatments besides vaccines that contribute to the decrease in disease and that those things should be taken into account when relevant. Vaccines have their risks as well, sometimes very serious ones, and with little or no benefit (the AIDS vaccine comes to mind). So I think it wise to determine what the best course of action is for treating a particular virus and not just assume that a vaccine is it.

Job 33:6 · May 13, 2020

TLSITD said:
Every situation is different. I didn't say that vaccines are never useful or the best option, but that there are other factors and treatments besides vaccines that contribute to the decrease in disease and that those things should be taken into account when relevant.

You may as well have just informed me that eating fruits and vegetables is good for my health. Thank you for sharing.

TLSITD · May 13, 2020

KomatiiteBIF said:
You may as well have just informed me that eating fruits and vegetables is good for my health. Thank you for sharing.

(Was this thread created to promote vaccination as the best treatment for all viruses under all circumstances then? If it was, I must have missed that statement of purpose in the OP...)

OldWiseGuy · May 13, 2020

Strathos said:
If anti-vaxxers think that personal freedom should trump public safety, do they also think that drunk driving should be legal?

Drunk driving is legal in the U.S. Hundreds of people are killed by repeat drunk drivers each year. Drunk drivers have their licenses suspended but are allowed to drive their vehicles.

Shemjaza · May 14, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
Drunk driving is legal in the U.S. Hundreds of people are killed by repeat drunk drivers each year. Drunk drivers have their licenses suspended but are allowed to drive their vehicles.

The United States is a very strange country.

If driving without a licence isn't a crime, why do people need licences?

createdtoworship · May 14, 2020

KomatiiteBIF said:
From Wikipedia, Measles - Wikipedia:

In 1980, 2.6 million people died of it,[7][the vaccine was invented in 1963] and in 1990 , 545,000 died; by 2014, global vaccination programs had reduced the number of deaths from measles to 73,000.[9][17] Despite these trends, rates of disease and deaths increased from 2017 to 2019 due to a decrease in immunization.[18][19][20] The risk of death among those infected is about 0.2%,[5] but may be up to 10% in people with malnutrition.[7] Most of those who die from the infection are less than five years old.[12]

I agree with vaccinations, however here is some statistics that were brought up to me this week:

IF YOU VACCINATE - In the first 6 years of life your child receives the following:

•17,500 mcg 2-phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)
•5,700 mcg aluminum (neurotoxin)
•Unknown amounts of fetal bovine serum(aborted cow blood)
•801.6 mcg formaldehyde (carcinogen, embalming agent)
•23,250 mcg gelatin (ground up animal carcass)
•500 mcg human albumin (human blood)
•760 mcg of monosodium L-glutamate (causes obesity & diabetes)
•Unknown amounts of MRC-5 cells (aborted human babies)
•Over 10 mcg neomycin (antibiotic)
•Over 0.075 mcg polymyxin B (antibiotic)
•Over 560 mcg polysorbate 80 (carcinogen)
•116 mcg potassium chloride (used in a lethal injection)
•188 mcg potassium phosphate (liquid fertilizer agent)
•260 mcg sodium bicarbonate (baking soda)
•70 mcg sodium borate (Borax, used for cockroach control)
•54,100 mcg of sodium chloride (table salt)
•Unknown amounts of sodium citrate (food additive)
•Unknown amounts of sodium hydroxide (Danger! Corrosive)
•2,800 mcg sodium phosphate (toxic to any organism)
•Unknown amounts of sodium phosphate monobasic monohydrate (toxic to any organism)
•32,000 mcg sorbitol (Not to be injected)
•0.6 mcg streptomycin (antibiotic )
•Over 40,000 mcg sucrose (cane sugar)
•35,000 mcg yeast protein (fungus)
•5,000 mcg urea (metabolic waste from human urine)
•Other chemical residual

(From the book, "What The Pharmaceutical Companies Don't Want You To Know About Vaccines" - By Dr.Todd M. Elsner)

I mentioned it was a chiropractor not an immunologist.

But I wondered if you ever heard of these ingredients?

What do you think of this list?
I have also heart hat aborted baby cells are used to harvest viruses, what do you have on that?

I have replied my best efforts but I thought I would introduce this and debate it here, to get more ammunition.

FrumiousBandersnatch · May 14, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
We'll know one way or the other when all the testing is complete. There is a reason why so many are hardly affected by their exposure to coronavirus. I suspect it's because their immune systems are working pretty well. It is a fact that the overwhelming number of serious infections including deaths are among those with weak or compromised immune systems.

I think you'll find it's far more complicated that that. For a very readable and authoritative guide to the human immune system, I recommend "The Beautiful Cure: The New Science of Human Health" by Daniel M. Davis.

Shemjaza · May 14, 2020

createdtoworship said:
I agree with vaccinations, however here is some statistics that were brought up to me this week:

IF YOU VACCINATE - In the first 6 years of life your child receives the following:

•17,500 mcg 2-phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)
•5,700 mcg aluminum (neurotoxin)
•Unknown amounts of fetal bovine serum(aborted cow blood)
•801.6 mcg formaldehyde (carcinogen, embalming agent)
•23,250 mcg gelatin (ground up animal carcass)
•500 mcg human albumin (human blood)
•760 mcg of monosodium L-glutamate (causes obesity & diabetes)
•Unknown amounts of MRC-5 cells (aborted human babies)
•Over 10 mcg neomycin (antibiotic)
•Over 0.075 mcg polymyxin B (antibiotic)
•Over 560 mcg polysorbate 80 (carcinogen)
•116 mcg potassium chloride (used in a lethal injection)
•188 mcg potassium phosphate (liquid fertilizer agent)
•260 mcg sodium bicarbonate (baking soda)
•70 mcg sodium borate (Borax, used for cockroach control)
•54,100 mcg of sodium chloride (table salt)
•Unknown amounts of sodium citrate (food additive)
•Unknown amounts of sodium hydroxide (Danger! Corrosive)
•2,800 mcg sodium phosphate (toxic to any organism)
•Unknown amounts of sodium phosphate monobasic monohydrate (toxic to any organism)
•32,000 mcg sorbitol (Not to be injected)
•0.6 mcg streptomycin (antibiotic )
•Over 40,000 mcg sucrose (cane sugar)
•35,000 mcg yeast protein (fungus)
•5,000 mcg urea (metabolic waste from human urine)
•Other chemical residual

(From the book, "What The Pharmaceutical Companies Don't Want You To Know About Vaccines" - By Dr.Todd M. Elsner)

I mentioned it was a chiropractor not an immunologist.

But I wondered if you ever heard of these ingredients?

What do you think of this list?
I have also heart hat aborted baby cells are used to harvest viruses, what do you have on that?

I have replied my best efforts but I thought I would introduce this and debate it here, to get more ammunition.

List of scary sounding chemicals... but without the context that indicates if they are actually dangerous.

For example, do people talk about the cyanide content of fruit? They don't despite there being easily enough to kill you in the average peach, it's locked up in a safe compound.

Haven't you read the misleading descriptions of water where they attempt to scare people about Dihydrogen Monoxide?

FrumiousBandersnatch · May 14, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
Actually that's the only answer that makes sense for the individual. You don't ask the teacher what the textbook says, you study it for yourself. Same with health. You study it, then apply it and see what happens. If you are successful your health will improve and then you'll have a pretty good idea what health actually is. A note of caution. Obtaining health is not easy. It takes time, will power, and some sacrifice. And it is life changing, which is likely the reason so few want to become healthy.

Reminds me of so many answers on these forums about faith and finding evidence for God...

Just sayin'.

createdtoworship · May 14, 2020

Shemjaza said:
List of scary sounding chemicals... but without the context that indicates if they are actually dangerous.

For example, do people talk about the cyanide content of fruit? They don't despite there being easily enough to kill you in the average peach, it's locked up in a safe compound.

Haven't you read the misleading descriptions of water where they attempt to scare people about Dihydrogen Monoxide?

yeah I wanted to post this to see if there are any safe compounds that I am missing, that may nullify some of the scarier chemicals.

FrumiousBandersnatch · May 14, 2020

createdtoworship said:
I agree with vaccinations, however here is some statistics that were brought up to me this week:

IF YOU VACCINATE - In the first 6 years of life your child receives the following:

•17,500 mcg 2-phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)
•5,700 mcg aluminum (neurotoxin)
•Unknown amounts of fetal bovine serum(aborted cow blood)
•801.6 mcg formaldehyde (carcinogen, embalming agent)
•23,250 mcg gelatin (ground up animal carcass)
•500 mcg human albumin (human blood)
•760 mcg of monosodium L-glutamate (causes obesity & diabetes)
•Unknown amounts of MRC-5 cells (aborted human babies)
•Over 10 mcg neomycin (antibiotic)
•Over 0.075 mcg polymyxin B (antibiotic)
•Over 560 mcg polysorbate 80 (carcinogen)
•116 mcg potassium chloride (used in a lethal injection)
•188 mcg potassium phosphate (liquid fertilizer agent)
•260 mcg sodium bicarbonate (baking soda)
•70 mcg sodium borate (Borax, used for cockroach control)
•54,100 mcg of sodium chloride (table salt)
•Unknown amounts of sodium citrate (food additive)
•Unknown amounts of sodium hydroxide (Danger! Corrosive)
•2,800 mcg sodium phosphate (toxic to any organism)
•Unknown amounts of sodium phosphate monobasic monohydrate (toxic to any organism)
•32,000 mcg sorbitol (Not to be injected)
•0.6 mcg streptomycin (antibiotic )
•Over 40,000 mcg sucrose (cane sugar)
•35,000 mcg yeast protein (fungus)
•5,000 mcg urea (metabolic waste from human urine)
•Other chemical residual

(From the book, "What The Pharmaceutical Companies Don't Want You To Know About Vaccines" - By Dr.Todd M. Elsner)

I mentioned it was a chiropractor not an immunologist.

But I wondered if you ever heard of these ingredients?

What do you think of this list?
I have also heart hat aborted baby cells are used to harvest viruses, what do you have on that?

I have replied my best efforts but I thought I would introduce this and debate it here, to get more ammunition.

Many of those are harmless at tenths of a gram or more per day, and even the most potentially toxic are harmless at 10x the levels mentioned per year. Micrograms are millionths of a gram. You will consume far greater amounts of most of them in your diet - most of them are food additives.

Toxicity and dosage are closely related. Substances that are positively beneficial in low doses can be toxic at high doses, and not just obvious ones like digitalis or botulinum toxin - even water and oxygen are lethally toxic at high doses.

FrumiousBandersnatch · May 14, 2020

createdtoworship said:
yeah I wanted to post this to see if there are any safe compounds that I am missing, that may nullify some of the scarier chemicals.

Which scary chemicals did you have in mind? - I don't see any on that list. I suspect someone with an agenda is trying to scare people.

On the value of Vaccines.

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