On the value of Vaccines.

[Job 33:6]

In these times of anti-vaxxers and plandemics, I have found myself asking the question of how deadly certain diseases were for society in pre-vaccine days. Such as Polio or the measles.

What does everyone here think or know about how deadly various diseases were, and how many lives have been saved since discovery of their respective vaccines?

Is anyone familiar with sources that provide explicit data and number of pre-vaccine deaths that can be used in justifying the value of Vaccines? For example, I recently heard that measles would kill up to 15% of people infected.

 

[Job 33:6]

From Wikipedia, Measles - Wikipedia:

In 1980, 2.6 million people died of it,[7][the vaccine was invented in 1963] and in 1990 , 545,000 died; by 2014, global vaccination programs had reduced the number of deaths from measles to 73,000.[9][17] Despite these trends, rates of disease and deaths increased from 2017 to 2019 due to a decrease in immunization.[18][19][20] The risk of death among those infected is about 0.2%,[5] but may be up to 10% in people with malnutrition.[7] Most of those who die from the infection are less than five years old.[12]

 

[AnotherAtheist]

Polio, again from Wikipedia: History of polio - Wikipedia

Number of cases in the US dropped from 58,000 to 5,600 with the introduction of the vacciine.

More history here: Timeline of polio - Wikipedia

More information about other diseases here: Historical Comparisons of Morbidity and Mortality for Vaccine-Preventable Diseases in the United States

 

[A_Thinker]

In these times of anti-vaxxers and plandemics, I have found myself asking the question of how deadly certain diseases were for society in pre-vaccine days. Such as Polio or the measles.

What does everyone here think or know about how deadly various diseases were, and how many lives have been saved since discovery of their respective vaccines?

Is anyone familiar with sources that provide explicit data and number of pre-vaccine deaths that can be used in justifying the value of Vaccines? For example, I recently heard that measles would kill up to 15% of people infected.

From ... Simply put: Vaccination saves lives

"Few measures in public health can compare with the impact of vaccines.

Vaccinations have reduced disease, disability, and death from a variety of infectious diseases.

For example, in the United States, children are recommended to be vaccinated against 16 diseases. Table 1 highlights the impact in the United States of immunization against nine vaccine-preventable diseases, including smallpox and a complication of one of those diseases, congenital rubella syndrome, showing representative annual numbers of cases in the 20th century compared with 2016 reported cases. All of the diseases have been reduced by more than 90% and many have either been eliminated or reductions of 99% or more have been achieved.

A recent analysis of vaccines to protect against 13 diseases estimated that nearly 20 million cases of diseases were prevented, including over 40,000 deaths.

In addition to saving the lives of our children, vaccination has resulted in net economic benefits to society amounting to almost $69 billion in the United States alone. A recent economic analysis of 10 vaccines for 94 low and middle-income countries estimated that an investment of $34 billion for the immunization programs resulted in savings of $586 billion in reducing costs of illness and $1.53 trillion when broader economic benefits were included.

The only human disease ever eradicated, smallpox, was eradicated using a vaccine, and a second, polio, is near eradication, also using vaccines."

Table 1
Simply put: Vaccination saves lives

 

[Job 33:6]

From 1964-1965, before the development of a vaccine against the disease, a rubella epidemic swept the United States. During that short period there were 12.5 million cases of rubella. Twenty thousand children were born with CRS: 11,000 were deaf, 3,500 blind, and 1,800 intellectually disabled. There were 2,100 neonatal deaths and more than 11,000 abortions – some a spontaneous result of rubella infection in the mother, and others performed surgically after women were informed of the serious risks of rubella exposure during their pregnancy.

As of 2004, rubella was declared eliminated in the United States, and transmission of the rubella virus in the World Health Organization’s Region of the Americas was halted in 2009.

Rubella | History of Vaccines

 

[sesquiterpene]

Homologous protein domains in SARS-CoV-2 and measles, mumps and rubella viruses: preliminary evidence that MMR vaccine might provide protection against COVID-19

In these times of anti-vaxxers and plandemics, I have found myself asking the question of how deadly certain diseases were for society in pre-vaccine days. Such as Polio or the measles.

What does everyone here think or know about how deadly various diseases were, and how many lives have been saved since discovery of their respective vaccines?

Is anyone familiar with sources that provide explicit data and number of pre-vaccine deaths that can be used in justifying the value of Vaccines? For example, I recently heard that measles would kill up to 15% of people infected.

Here's something that would drive antivaxxers crazy(er): The authors suggest that the MMR vaccine might provide protection against SARS-CoV-2, which is one reason younger victims are much less likely to have severe symptoms. It's all highly speculative, of course:

 

[AnotherAtheist]

Here's something that would drive antivaxxers crazy(er): The authors suggest that the MMR vaccine might provide protection against SARS-CoV-2, which is one reason younger victims are much less likely to have severe symptoms. It's all highly speculative, of course:

Unfortunately, no it wouldn't. They'd just dismiss the evidence as conspiracy no matter how compelling it is.

 

[Job 33:6]

Here is a question:

Is anyone aware of cases in which vaccines have been demonstrated to harm people? Such as in the case of mental retardation? Or how about with relation to mercury in flu vaccines?

Even if it were only one case in a million, have vaccines ever done harm to people?

 

[AnotherAtheist]

Vaccines most definitely have done some harm to some people.

That doesn't mean that, on balance, vaccines aren't a very good thing for public health. But, it's undeniable that there are some people who are damanged.

The number is, I believe, far less than the number of claims of damage due to vaccines.

If you search long enough, I'm sure you'll find deaths due to safety belts in cars. I found one: An Immediate Death by Seat Belt Compression; a Forensic Medicine Report That doesn't mean that, on balance, safety belts aren't a major plus significantly reducing death and injury due to car accidents.

I'm a bit suspicious of thiis question as one-sided claims of harm due to vaccines without comparison to the orders of magnitude larger benefits is one invalid form of argument frequently used by anti-vaxxers.

 

[Job 33:6]

Vaccines most definitely have done some harm to some people.

That doesn't mean that, on balance, vaccines aren't a very good thing for public health. But, it's undeniable that there are some people who are damanged.

The number is, I believe, far less than the number of claims of damage due to vaccines.

If you search long enough, I'm sure you'll find deaths due to safety belts in cars. I found one: An Immediate Death by Seat Belt Compression; a Forensic Medicine Report That doesn't mean that, on balance, safety belts aren't a major plus significantly reducing death and injury due to car accidents.

I'm a bit suspicious of thiis question as one-sided claims of harm due to vaccines without comparison to the orders of magnitude larger benefits is one invalid form of argument frequently used by anti-vaxxers.

Interesting.

Would these be non lab-replicated cases of harm from vaccination, thus suggesting that the cause might be something other than the vaccine? Or is this something that we can put a finger on and case say, yes, a certain vaccine caused a certain illness?

 

[sesquiterpene]

Here is a question:

Is anyone aware of cases in which vaccines have been demonstrated to harm people? Such as in the case of mental retardation? Or how about with relation to mercury in flu vaccines?

Even if it were only one case in a million, have vaccines ever done harm to people?

The US has a special court to compensate people who have been injured by vaccines. The Wikipedia entry has a table listing injuries per million vaccinations for each vaccine:National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program - Wikipedia

 

[AnotherAtheist]

Interesting.

Would these be non lab-replicated cases of harm from vaccination, thus suggesting that the cause might be something other than the vaccine? Or is this something that we can put a finger on and case say, yes, a certain vaccine caused a certain illness?

I believe that it is well established that vaccines can cause injury, and here is some research discussing that. How can vaccines cause damage? It's recognised that effectively those few who are damaged have paid a price for the benefit that the vast majority of the population receives. Hence some countries have vaccination injury compensation programs. E.g. National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program - Wikipedia

I am uncomfortable with proviiding this information as, as I said, it is often mis-used by anti-vaxxers who will promote individiual cases of vaccine injury as meaningful, while not mentioning the benefits of vaccination. I.e. lying by omissions.

 

[Job 33:6]

I believe that it is well established that vaccines can cause injury, and here is some research discussing that. How can vaccines cause damage? It's recognised that effectively those few who are damaged have paid a price for the benefit that the vast majority of the population receives. Hence some countries have vaccination injury compensation programs. E.g. National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program - Wikipedia

I am uncomfortable with proviiding this information as, as I said, it is often mis-used by anti-vaxxers who will promote individiual cases of vaccine injury as meaningful, while not mentioning the benefits of vaccination. I.e. lying by omissions.

Interesting.

So while there appears to be millions of lives saved (thereby justifying value in vaccines), on occasion, for reasons that are perhaps unclear, perhaps 1 in a million people (or less) who receive a vaccine, may be Injured?

And so some say, well, because so and so of this 1/1,000,000 case was injured, perhaps we should do away with vaccines, despite the hundreds of millions saved?

I'm curious though. Of how an injury could occur at a rate of 1/1,000,000. Is this comparable to eating a can of tuna, where 1/1,000,000 might get sick from mercury? Or could it be associated with pre-existing conditions?

 

[AnotherAtheist]

Interesting.

So while there appears to be millions of lives saved (thereby justifying value in vaccines), on occasion, for reasons that are perhaps unclear, perhaps 1 in a million people (or less) who receive a vaccine, may be Injured?

And so some say, well, because so and so of this 1/1,000,000 case was injured, perhaps we should do away with vaccines, despite the hundreds of millions saved?

I'm curious though. Of how an injury could occur at a rate of 1/1,000,000. Is this comparable to eating a can of tuna, where 1/1,000,000 might get sick from mercury? Or could it be associated with pre-existing conditions?

I believe that the mechanisms by which vaccines very occasionally cause harm are understood. But, I do not have suitable references to hand which can explain.

One example is that of live vaccines, where the vaccine is a living but attenuated virus that infects the vaccinated individual, but does not cause noticiable disease. It is possible, though very rare, that the vaccine virus may mutate back into the wild form (and cause the original disease) or to a new, dangerous strain. See, e.g., Attenuated vaccine - Wikipedia

 

[sesquiterpene]

Interesting.

So while there appears to be millions of lives saved (thereby justifying value in vaccines), on occasion, for reasons that are perhaps unclear, perhaps 1 in a million people (or less) who receive a vaccine, may be Injured?

And so some say, well, because so and so of this 1/1,000,000 case was injured, perhaps we should do away with vaccines, despite the hundreds of millions saved?

I'm curious though. Of how an injury could occur at a rate of 1/1,000,000. Is this comparable to eating a can of tuna, where 1/1,000,000 might get sick from mercury? Or could it be associated with pre-existing conditions?

The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program has a list of injuries ("Table Injuries") which pretty much automatically receive compensation if it occurs within a certain time frame following vaccination. Heading the list is anaphylaxis - severe allergic reaction. There is also encephalitis, which is possibly also due to allergic reactions causing very high fevers for an extended period. You can also look up Rotashield, which had one particular rare side effect, which caused the vaccine to be withdrawn. https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/vaccinecompensation/vaccineinjurytable.pdf

 

[sesquiterpene]

The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program has a list of injuries ("Table Injuries") which pretty much automatically receive compensation if it occurs within a certain time frame following vaccination. Heading the list is anaphylaxis - severe allergic reaction. There is also encephalitis, which is possibly also due to allergic reactions causing very high fevers for an extended period. You can also look up Rotashield, which had one particular rare side effect, which caused the vaccine to be withdrawn. https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/vaccinecompensation/vaccineinjurytable.pdf

Other injuries include Vasovagal syncope - basically, the person fainted following the injection and hurt themselves. Sounds almost amusing, but yes you can really hurt yourself that way. Also included are physical injuries to the shoulder by the needle - I think many of these are due to accidents by the medical practitioner.

 

[Emsmom1]

Here is a question:

Is anyone aware of cases in which vaccines have been demonstrated to harm people? Such as in the case of mental retardation? Or how about with relation to mercury in flu vaccines?

Even if it were only one case in a million, have vaccines ever done harm to people?

Yes, my daughter's friend has a diagnosis of "vaccine-induced lupus." She was in middle school when she received the pertussis vaccine (there was a spate of whooping cough cases at the time). There is a National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program in the US. That said, I am not an anti-vaxxer and think vaccines do significantly more good than harm.

 

[A_Thinker]

Homologous protein domains in SARS-CoV-2 and measles, mumps and rubella viruses: preliminary evidence that MMR vaccine might provide protection against COVID-19
Here's something that would drive antivaxxers crazy(er): The authors suggest that the MMR vaccine might provide protection against SARS-CoV-2, which is one reason younger victims are much less likely to have severe symptoms. It's all highly speculative, of course:

That's interesting.

I wonder how universally the MMR vaccine is administered to children world-wide ...

 

[Strathos]

While this is a useful thread, what does it have to do with creationism?

 

[Ophiolite]

While this is a useful thread, what does it have to do with creationism?

It is an unwritten law of the forum that no thread should remain on topic beyond post #8. Since some threads exceed this limit the average is restored by ones like this that are placed in the wrong sub-forum.

In order to contribute to this institutional disorganisation it is important, certainly by Page 2 of a thread, to pay absolutely no heed to the Opening Post, or Thread Title. Regular members should also begin making posts that push their own agendas and hobby-horses from Page 3 onwards. (Immediately in the case of @OldWiseGuy and @xianghua.)

This disinformation and fake news has been brought to you by the Committee for Public Nonsense. Don't try this at home!