On the torments of Hell

[JM]

Peter Lombard, the Master of Sentences

​

“Therefore the elect shall go forth…to see the torments of the impious, seeing which they will not be grieved, but will be satiated with joy at the sight of the unutterable calamity of the impious .” Sent. Iv 50, ad fin

​

Martin Luther
​

When questioned whether the Blessed will not be saddened by seeing their nearest and dearest tortured answers, “Not in the least.”

Jonathan Edwards

​

“The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven.”

​

The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss.

​

["The Eternity of Hell Torments" (Sermon), April 1739 & Discourses on Various Important Subjects, 1738]


J.I. Packer


​

"...love and pity for hell's occupants will not enter our hearts." J.I. Packer in article "Hell's Final Enigma" in "Christianity Today Magazine, April 22,2002."


Richard Baxter

​

It is not a terrible thing to a wretched soul, when it shall lie roaring perpetually in the flames of hell, and the God of mercy himself shall laugh at them; when…God shall mock them instead of relieving them; when none in heaven or earth can help them but God, and he shall rejoice over them in their calamity . –(“The Saint's Everlasting Rest” 1846)








​

 

[Philonephius]

These teachings are very difficult to swallow.

That said, the only part I am not convinced of is the idea that the Saints will not mourn for the damned. I think there will be a time of mourning. I find it difficult to believe that I will rejoice at the prospect of my grandfather and other relatives being tormented. Is there anything in the Bible that lends credence to this idea?

 

[ALoveDivine]

We will be dwelling on the new Earth, not floating around in heaven looking down at Hell. No, I don't think we will even have any remembrance of the evils of this age or those who died in their sins. All we will know for the rest of eternity is the joy of being with God and our brothers and sisters in Christ on the new Earth.

The idea that we go to heaven, the lost go to Hell, and were just looking down at them is a myth. Heaven is not our final destination, the new Earth is. I expect that Hell is in some completely different dimension and we'll likely have no contact with it at all, nor any memory of its occupants or the evils of this world.

 

[Ceridwen]

The conversion process involves losing empathy for the welfare of nonbelievers, and pivoting toward a concern for the glorification of Yahweh. Conversion involves coming to love what is lovely and hate what is loathsome -- according to God's moral judgment rather than ours.

God promises us new affections and feelings that come with a new heart: "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws." Ezekiel 36:26-27

Jonathan Edwards stated the reoriented affections must clearly: "The saints highly value the glory of God here in this, but how much more will they so do in the world to come They will therefore greatly rejoice in all that contributes to that glory. The glory of God will in their esteem be of greater consequence, than the welfare of thousands and millions of souls.-Particularly, They will rejoice in seeing the justice of God glorified in the sufferings of the damned." Jonathan Edwards. The End of the Wicked Contemplated by the Righteous.

 

[Ceridwen]

These teachings are very difficult to swallow.

It is difficult to swallow for the natural man who wishes to obey his conscience. But what about the regenerate man who allows Divine Revelation to inform his ideas of good and evil?

A.W. Pink, The Attributes of God, Chapter 16: "The Wrath of God."
Our readiness or our reluctancy to meditate upon the wrath of God becomes a sure test of how our hearts’ really stand affected toward Him. If we do not truly rejoice in God, for what He is in Himself, and that because of all the perfections which are eternally resident in Him, then how dwelleth the love of God in us? Each of us needs to be most prayerfully on his guard against devising an image of God in our thoughts which is patterned after our own evil inclinations. Of old the Lord complained, "Thou thoughtest that I was altogether as thyself" (Ps. 50:21), If we rejoice not "at the remembrance of His holiness" (Ps. 97:12), if we rejoice not to know that in a soon coming Day God will make a most glorious display of His wrath, by taking vengeance on all who now oppose Him, it is proof positive that our hearts are not in subjection to Him, that we are yet in our sins, on the way to the everlasting burnings. "Rejoice, O ye nations (Gentiles) His people, for He will avenge the blood of His servants, and will render vengeance to His adversaries" (Deut. 32:43).​

 

[Philonephius]

It is difficult to swallow for the natural man who wishes to obey his conscience. But what about the regenerate man who allows Divine Revelation to inform his ideas of good and evil?

You're suggesting that I am a natural man because I don't believe we will rejoice at the damnation of unbelievers? That is quite presumptuous of you. Frankly, I don't care what Jonathan Edwards had to say on the matter. He is not God. I do not believe that I will rejoice as my grandfather is cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Anoetos]

It makes sense.

For the saints in glory, such offenses to, and offenders of, the holiness of God, are not fit subjects for pity, but for joy at the triumph of our God in their destruction.

 

[Philonephius]

It makes sense.

For the saints in glory, such offenses to, and offenders of, the holiness of God, are not fit subjects for pity, but for joy at the triumph of our God in their destruction.

So you don't mourn at all for unbelievers that die in their sins? Rev. Moon died today and is probably in Hell. You feel no grief for his soul at all? If that is your philosophy, why bother spreading the Gospel? After all, who cares about them - let them go to Hell. Right?

I think everyone here is ignoring the reality that God did not create Hell for human beings. He created it for the devil and his angels. It is not God's desire that any human being should perish.

 

[Anoetos]

So you don't mourn at all for unbelievers that die in their sins? Rev. Moon died today and is probably in Hell. You feel no grief for his soul at all? If that is your philosophy, why bother spreading the Gospel? After all, who cares about them - let them go to Hell. Right?

I think everyone here is ignoring the reality that God did not create Hell for human beings. He created it for the devil and his angels. It is not God's desire that any human being should perish.

I regret that he did not believe the truth, but I do not mourn him, no. And in glory, my perspective will be even more clear, even more single. That's the point here. Once we are filled with knowledge of God's righteousness and holiness in the way that heaven entails, we will see offenses to it much differently than we do now, we will see them for the cosmic treasons that they are, and we will rejoice with Him at their destruction and their putting away. And even more, we will have no part in them, our commonality with the reprobate will have been utterly taken away.

And this is why we preach the gospel to the living, that they might be spared. It is terrible, but it is deserved to fall under his wrath if a person is at enmity with God. It is our duty to bring the means of rescue to those who may be saved. But to pity those who spend all their energies fighting Him and trampling the cross under foot?

Why? Tell them the truth, but recognizing them for what they are and for what they do means a quite different response. Pity would be entirely inappropriate.

 

[Philonephius]

I regret that he did not believe the truth, but I do not mourn him, no. And in glory, my perspective will be even more clear, even more single. That's the point here. Once we are filled with knowledge of God's righteousness and holiness in the way that heaven entails, we will see offenses to it much differently than we do now, we will see them for the cosmic treasons that they are, and we will rejoice with Him at their destruction and their putting away. And even more, we will have no part in them, our commonality with the reprobate will have been utterly taken away.

And this is why we preach the gospel to the living, that they might be spared. It is terrible, but it is deserved to fall under his wrath if a person is at enmity with God. It is our duty to bring the means of rescue to those who may be saved. But to pity those who spend all their energies fighting Him and trampling the cross under foot?

Why? Tell them the truth, but recognizing them for what they are and for what they do means a quite different response. Pity would be entirely inappropriate.

Thank you for expanding your position. I suppose our disagreement merely boiled down to semantics rather than doctrine. I basically agree with everything you wrote above, although I do have pity for those who died in their sins - especially friends and relatives. Of the five that died in the past few years, probably only one was saved. I think pity is a natural and acceptable emotion given the circumstances.

 

[hedrick]

The conversion process involves losing empathy for the welfare of nonbelievers, and pivoting toward a concern for the glorification of Yahweh. Conversion involves coming to love what is lovely and hate what is loathsome -- according to God's moral judgment rather than ours.

This sounds immoral to me. Why would Jesus weep over Jerusalem if he felt nothing for nonbelievers. And what about all his talk about loving enemies because God loves his.

This certainly provides a simple solution to a number of apologetical questions, but I'd rather live with unresolved questions than with a God that hates most of his creatures.

 

[Rick Otto]

This sounds immoral to me. Why would Jesus weep over Jerusalem if he felt nothing for nonbelievers. And what about all his talk about loving enemies because God loves his.

This certainly provides a simple solution to a number of apologetical questions, but I'd rather live with unresolved questions than with a God that hates most of his creatures.

Me too.

 

[JM]

This sounds immoral to me. Why would Jesus weep over Jerusalem if he felt nothing for nonbelievers.

I did see anything in the passage about Jesus weeping for unbelievers so I looked up the passage in a couple of commentaries and they mention Christ weeping for the evils that were about to befall the city, the temporal torments that would destroy Jerusalem and not unbelievers.

And what about all his talk about loving enemies because God loves his.

This passages comes with a lot of tradition and would take longer to unpack so I'll just post a few links and leave it at that.

Love Your Enemies - SermonAudio.com

"Common Grace Considered": Search results for love your enemies

This certainly provides a simple solution to a number of apologetical questions, but I'd rather live with unresolved questions than with a God that hates most of his creatures.

I don't know, I think if we keep in mind the sinfulness of sin, it makes sense.

jm

 

[twin1954]

but I'd rather live with unresolved questions than with a God that hates most of his creatures.

This statement reveals a great deal about who you think God ought to be rather than who He actually is.

 

[CalledOutOne]

Have you not read Revelation? Just after God throws a ton of people into hell here's what the saints sing:

"Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God; because His judgments are true and righteous; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and He has avenged the blood of His bond-servants on her."

And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever."

(Revelation 19).

If that's not praise to God, then what is?

Can we really love God intimately and fully if we don't love His glorious wrath? We must love all of the attributes of almighty God. Praise God for His beautiful, glorious, wonderful, wrath.

The Puritans had no problem with this.

 

[Erinwilcox]

While I wholeheartedly agree that God will be glorified through the demonstration of His wrath upon the wicked, I think that too much contemplation and excitement regarding this topic can lead to having the same attitude toward the wicked now . . .

Someday, when Christ returns, we will be called to behold the splendor of God's wrath, but for now we are called to love those at whom His wrath will be directed and commanded to preach to them the gospel of repentance.

In my opinion, some Reformed circles (the Puritans included) spend(t) too much time pondering God's wrath that is to come and too little actively endeavoring to love and evangelize those who are lost. I know that some would disagree with me here, but I believe that preaching a sermon which speaks on the agonies of Hell and the blessings of Christ is one thing (and could be used to convict those in their sins), but to dwell too much on how we all will rejoice when the wicked are thrown in Hell is quite another--if I were unsaved and sitting in a church where they seemed to ENJOY preaching/thinking on that topic, I would totally be turned off.

You can think on it now if you will, but it does little to show the all-encompassing love of Christ to the reprobate if they think that all we do is rejoice now on how they will be punished. It also seems to foster less of a compassion now for those people. Regardless of one's beliefs on this matter, it is for the future, the time that is to come and not now.

*As a note, I am NOT saying that the Puritans did not evangelize, just that I think they had a tendency to, at times, write/preach too often on the coming wrath.

 

[JM]

In my opinion, some Reformed circles (the Puritans included) spend(t) too much time pondering God's wrath that is to come and too little actively endeavoring to love and evangelize those who are lost.

I would say the Puritans spent more time then we do pondering their own sinfulness, their own unworthiness and therefore the wrath of God. The two are connected.

 

[Erinwilcox]

I would say the Puritans spent more time then we do pondering their own sinfulness, their own unworthiness and therefore the wrath of God. The two are connected.

Yes, but once we come to Christ, our sins have been forgiven. In my mind, pondering my own sinfulness and unworthiness makes me all the more thankful for His mercy and forgiveness . . . and these thoughts should make us want to shout from the rooftops what a wonderful, merciful, loving God we serve and should make us all the more eager and ready to share this love with the lost.

 

[gord44]

It is difficult to swallow for the natural man who wishes to obey his conscience.

I would hope it would be difficult to swallow for any compassionate man. A 'regenerate' man especially.

 

[JM]

Yes, but once we come to Christ, our sins have been forgiven. In my mind, pondering my own sinfulness and unworthiness makes me all the more thankful for His mercy and forgiveness . . . and these thoughts should make us want to shout from the rooftops what a wonderful, merciful, loving God we serve and should make us all the more eager and ready to share this love with the lost.

Romans 7 comes to mind. It is not the fear of hell that causes us to think of hell, but our lack of true holiness and our right understanding that we truly, without Christ, deserve hell.

How does a Saint come to "shout from the rooftops" of God's love unless they rightly discern their sinfulness?

I believe if we start at our own depravity and lack of holiness the Puritans were correct to think on hell for the obverse side of the coin is heaven. We, in ourselves, deserve hell and this is brought to our minds and brought into the focus of our conscience daily through the experimental teaching of God the Holy Spirit. We groan in this body of death knowing we are saved but unworthy...that we are saved by Christ alone and humbled that we are accepted in the beloved. Knowing our fate without Christ makes us shout from the rooftops of God's amazing grace and love for His people.

jm