On the immoral

[DarkProphet]

Many Christians claim that homosexuality is immoral because sections of the Bible say it is, but this brings up a larger question. What gets deemed "immoral"? After all the Bible also says that shellfish is immoral but Christians don't impose bans on that. Also why is it that God's morals seem to line up with the morals of the people that wrote the Bible?

 

[kevlite2020]

If the morals of the Bible lined up so well with the morals of the people who wrote it, why did they have such a hard time following it? If you read through Kings, Chronicles, Exodus, all sorts of books in the Old Testament really, you will see over and over that they fail to keep those morals and are constantly punished for it. You'd think if it was just the morals they wanted to impose, it would be things that they were able to follow, right?

I will let someone wiser then me answer about things like shellfish. I have my theories on it but I'd rather someone with more of a Biblical background explain it to you.

 

[DarkProphet]

If the morals of the Bible lined up so well with the morals of the people who wrote it, why did they have such a hard time following it? If you read through Kings, Chronicles, Exodus, all sorts of books in the Old Testament really, you will see over and over that they fail to keep those morals and are constantly punished for it. You'd think if it was just the morals they wanted to impose, it would be things that they were able to follow, right?

Even that's inconsistent, God's chosen murdered women and children when commanded but be alittle impatient when God doesn't deliver on a promise then they get punished. In anycase I was refering more to the NT then the OT on that point.

I will let someone wiser then me answer about things like shellfish. I have my theories on it but I'd rather someone with more of a Biblical background explain it to you.

Does that mean it falls under an unanswered question for you personally?

 

[visionary]

As a Messianic Judaism member, we believe a Yeshua style of obedience to the commandments, which include not eating the shellfish. Does that help?

 

[Jesusfreak93]

Well actually, shellfish may have been immoral in the Old Testament, but with Jesus paying the price for our sins, it enabled us to pray directly to God. By asking God to bless the food, it becomes holy and therefore fit to eat. And I agree with kevlite, the people who wrote the Bible had a hard time following the morals just as we do today.

 

[drich0150]

In any case I was refering more to the NT then the OT on that point.

The majority of the books of the "New Testament" were written to the local churches to correct the behavior of those who wanted to love and serve God, but their natural behavior was contrary to their ultimate professed Goal.

After all the Bible also says that shellfish is immoral but Christians don't impose bans on that.

This is referred to as self righteousness.. The self righteous among us will have Hell to pay.

Also why is it that God's morals seem to line up with the morals of the people that wrote the Bible?

Because God hand pick those who were to contribute to scripture. Why else would He include a writing or writer that did not jive with what He wanted to convey?

 

[ebia]

Many Christians claim that homosexuality is immoral because sections of the Bible say it is, but this brings up a larger question. What gets deemed "immoral"? After all the Bible also says that shellfish is immoral but Christians don't impose bans on that.

Of course one's discussion needs to be a bit more subtle than "because the bible says so" and deal with the fact that all Scripture is contextual.

Also why is it that God's morals seem to line up with the morals of the people that wrote the Bible?

What were you hoping for - a text that says "This is what God says but I (Paul) disagree with Him"? But I would suggest that the bible - especially the New Testament - is enormously challenging to its immediate audience, including the author so far as it is possible to tell.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Also why is it that God's morals seem to line up with the morals of the people that wrote the Bible?

Because the people who wrote the Bible were much more intelligent than most of us are and knew better than to rely on their own wisdom and understanding. (Proverbs 3:5)

A BOND-SLAVE OR OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[Jazmyn]

No-one is righteous before God, the Law was given so that we would become concious of this, so that sin might be made utterly sinful, so we would recognise that we needed a Saviour, who is Jesus Christ.

 

[DarkProphet]

As a Messianic Judaism member, we believe a Yeshua style of obedience to the commandments, which include not eating the shellfish. Does that help?

Yes and no, do you also stone your children to death if they decide to leave your faith? If not then you are cherry picking.

 

[DarkProphet]

The majority of the books of the "New Testament" were written to the local churches to correct the behavior of those who wanted to love and serve God, but their natural behavior was contrary to their ultimate professed Goal.

More accurately is was against Paul's view of God's goals.

This is referred to as self righteousness.. The self righteous among us will have Hell to pay.

Huh? So can Christians eat shellfish or not?

Because God hand pick those who were to contribute to scripture. Why else would He include a writing or writer that did not jive with what He wanted to convey?

Because everyone is a sinner there should be some MAJOR things that don't go concurrent with the traditional view. Slavery and selling of children into marriage come to mind but there are others.

 

[DarkProphet]

Because the people who wrote the Bible were much more intelligent than most of us are and knew better than to rely on their own wisdom and understanding. (Proverbs 3:5)

A BOND-SLAVE OR OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

Does that mean we are not allowed to think about our morals or the consequences of them?

 

[DarkProphet]

No-one is righteous before God, the Law was given so that we would become concious of this, so that sin might be made utterly sinful, so we would recognise that we needed a Saviour, who is Jesus Christ.

But it's inconsistent, you are not allowed to even THINK about someone inappropriately yet you are allowed to beat your slave to near death because he is your property.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Does that mean we are not allowed to think about our morals or the consequences of them?

MY DEAR FRIEND,

Of course not! It means that the only True and Unchanging Morality comes from God--the only being competent to judge and proclaim "Right" and "Wrong".

The converse to God's morality proclaimed by His Prophets (as opposed to "dark prophets") is our beloved "Situational Morality" so pervasive today--a product of our twisted, self-centered, and self-serving desires for illusionary "freedom" and "pleasure."

The writers of the Bible, wisely allowing their sense of Morality to be informed by God, have proclaimed unchanging Moral Truths to us in Scripture--Truths which we would do well to follow.

A BOND-SLAVE OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[Coralie]

Haven't read the thread but just answering the OP:

Many Christians claim that homosexuality is immoral because sections of the Bible say it is, but this brings up a larger question. What gets deemed "immoral"?

As a general rule of thumb, in Xianity whatever is idolatrous (shows that a person is worshipping something/someone besides God) is immoral.

This is an extremely dense concept. An individual Xian is responsible for applying it, in context, across his whole life: for example, it includes the idea that human beings are made in God's image, and are precious to God, and should be treated with honour--so adultery and fornication (having sex outside of marriage) is a sin, since both sins damage human relationships.

Also, deciding that God meant "a man and a man" rather than "a man and a woman" = marriage, because it's more convenient and culturally logical to do so, would be an idolatrous action.

Another e.g.: there are times that a Xian will go to war in order to protect others, but in other circumstances, that same Xian may refuse to participate in armed conflict in order to save lives.

After all the Bible also says that shellfish is immoral but Christians don't impose bans on that.

Please don't forget that Xians are not bound by the Old Testament, but by the New Testament. Dietary restrictions were a feature of the Old Testament, which was binding only for the Jewish people (and those who converted to Judaism before Jesus' death).

The New Testament was extended to all peoples, including the Gentiles (i.e., those who are not Jewish). The dietary and cleanliness/holiness prohibitions (e.g. physical circumcision of boys) were specifically lifted in the NT, since God ordained that the focus be shifted from external to internal obedience. See Mark 7 for more information on this. There are other passages that deal with this too.

Also why is it that God's morals seem to line up with the morals of the people that wrote the Bible?

Well... if you believe that God directly inspired the writers of the Bible to write what they did, then that would answer your question.

If you believe that the Biblical writers wrote what they did to control people, etc. according to their own personal morality... well then, why ask the question, since you already know the answer?

And gee, did they ever get their own way, those horrid Biblical writers. Writing all those nasty, controlling things so they could live a life of fame, fortune and comfort--

uh... I mean.... live their lives in material poverty and terrible hardship, and later die criminals' deaths, which could have been avoided had they recanted...

hmmm.

/<gentle sarcasm>

 

[freeport]

Many Christians claim that homosexuality is immoral because sections of the Bible say it is, but this brings up a larger question. What gets deemed "immoral"? After all the Bible also says that shellfish is immoral but Christians don't impose bans on that. Also why is it that God's morals seem to line up with the morals of the people that wrote the Bible?

Common sense?

Many components of the Law are to be taken spiritually. For instance, Paul pointed out the law, 'do not keep your oxen from eating while treading the grain' is not really about oxen at all.

If you wish to proclaim your own homosexuality, then do so, and maybe that should be discussed. It is common sense people who are not homosexual do not want to do this: they recoil at the very suggestion of it.

And do some never ask "why"?

Too bad.

They should.

 

[freeport]

Many Christians claim that homosexuality is immoral because sections of the Bible say it is, but this brings up a larger question. What gets deemed "immoral"? After all the Bible also says that shellfish is immoral but Christians don't impose bans on that. Also why is it that God's morals seem to line up with the morals of the people that wrote the Bible?

Put another way "DarkProphet", are you here stating your own preferred immorality is homosexuality?

I know people generally don't like to talk about such things when they feel they would be judged. But, that is okay, as Christians we are not to judge those outside the Church.

Did you know that some wild animals turn homosexual when locked up? For instance, bull cows.

And people are locked up by sin.

Maybe it is a slave mentality. People afraid to be who they really are?


They approach challenges to their pretensions with great hatred.

They want to keep them.


Love hurts. It really does. It is scary to consider love as the rule. But, if love is not the rule... what, exactly, is? And is that where people want to end up?

 

[spidergains]

A look at the Biblical Hebrew definitions of good and evil are helpful here.
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

As you can see, there is a qualitative as well as a moral difference between good and evil. The "pardon" offered by Jesus' atoning sacrifice redeems those who confess that they fall short of good and request the pardon.

Nicodemus, a high priest, was no better or any more worthy of heaven than a homosexual (see John 3). The difference is, most homosexuals today want to be accepted as good. Churches can say what they like, but homosexuality, Biblical speaking, is evil. Eating shellfish is less "evil."

 

[DarkProphet]

Put another way "DarkProphet", are you here stating your own preferred immorality is homosexuality?

No but as a minority I feel for their situation.

I know people generally don't like to talk about such things when they feel they would be judged. But, that is okay, as Christians we are not to judge those outside the Church.

Yet Christians do so all the time.

Did you know that some wild animals turn homosexual when locked up? For instance, bull cows.

Did you know that some animals turn homosexual in the wild?

And people are locked up by sin.

Maybe it is a slave mentality. People afraid to be who they really are?

Huh? Are you not the one that is bond to God?

They approach challenges to their pretensions with great hatred.

They want to keep them.

Huh? Who are your referring to?

Love hurts. It really does. It is scary to consider love as the rule. But, if love is not the rule... what, exactly, is? And is that where people want to end up?

Christians are not exactly "loving" when it comes to homosexuals, atheists, muslims, or any number of groups that fall in line with their doctrine.

 

[freeport]

Christians are not exactly "loving" when it comes to homosexuals, atheists, muslims, or any number of groups that fall in line with their doctrine.

That is a stereotype, totally.

You are locked in a delusion "Us vs Them" box. It happens to a lot of people. Especially in religion or politics. See one person claiming to represent an entire group, and it continues to prove the theory... of hate.

See, people can rail about how "all Christians are hateful", or "all Muslims", or "all Democrats are evil", or "all Republicans", or whatever their thing is. And what does that do for them? It creates for them a climate of fear and hate. Many do this while claiming it is their enemies who are like them... for instance, Hitler claimed the Jews had a cabal to take over the world. What did he do? Try and take over the world.

How can I say this? Super easy and obvious and a point I constantly bring up here to the very few stragglers who are locked into this sort of delusion, that is among those who have some vast stereotype against ALL Christians -- the majority, the vast majority, of the Free World IS Christian.

Is 75% of the population who call themselves "Christian" hateful like you say? No way.


I would hate to live in such a world where one sees everyone around them full of hate... thinking one is the only intelligent, sensitive, tolerant, loving person. That would be horrendous.


Especially as you consider yourself an outsider to "all these Christians".


Now, you can respond back trying to prove my own evil. Maybe my off the cuff comments about homosexuality have proven it to you? Whatever. Judge me as you will. It truly does not effect me. Why would it? Why would I care if some person out there in the wild abandon of six billion people thinks I am evil incarnate?

LOL...

But, what about you and your deeply dark view of the vast majority of people around you?

Are you really this way?

Personally, I don't hate you at all. I am sure someone burned you somewhere, claiming to be Christian. It is only normal to continue to feed such things.

People don't want to see beyond their "enemies" and love them, because love hurts.

Yet, they are unhappy in their own lives when they live this way.