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MY BROTHER,[serious];49767430 said:
This doesn't really answer the question I'm trying to ask.
"GOOD" in the sense you are using it in describing God can be differentiated from "bad" or "neutral" in that it is self-sacrificing, humble, and patient. A prime example would, of course, be God's willingness to sacrifice Himself for us, His rebellious children, on the Cross.[serious];49768145 said:
In order to deal with the "suffering problem" you would need to look at man in a fallen and sinful world rather than God who created it "very good"(Gen 1:31)[serious];49768145 said:
Ok, we've got a working definition of "good" as self-sacrificing, humble, and patient, but I'm not sure this really meshes with the world or even the bible. Probably the biggest problem is the humble part. humble people do not demand praise from subordinates. They do not write things such as "I am great" "there is none higher than me" etc. The bible is full of praises of God. If it's God's word than it's quite the opposite of humble.
Jesus Christ was God manifested in the flesh--in a form human beings could understand and relate to. As He said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father. The Father and I are one"(John 14:9), and then invites us to Him by stating, "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."(Matthew 11:28-30)[serious];49768410 said:
God didn't create hell--we do. God doesn't condemn us to it--we choose it. When all is said and done, hell is the absence of God and heaven is His presence. Our freewill-engendered choices determine our lot. God, in His humility, of course, begs us to chose the latter, but He humbly refuses to force our Love or compel our choice in the matter. We are responsible for our choice and for its eternal outcome.[serious];49768410 said:
Given that you have yet to meet the Man, you might want to withhold judgment until you do. Your assertions above come under the heading of "Forgiven them Father for they know not what they do."(Luke 23:34)[serious];49768932 said:
Hell was created by Satan and the fallen angels the same way ours is created. Hell--which is the absence of God--is created by a self-willed cutting oneself off from God through rebellion or denial. Sin is its own punishment.[serious];49768932 said:
God has given us the gift of freewill and He refuses renege on His gift. We were not created robots and God will not control our choices as if we were.[serious];49768932 said:
If we define "good" as "anything that happens" we've abandoned any functional meaning of "good". when a child gets cancer and dies in pain and agony, that is not good. Likewise, calling evil good is not good. Simply refusing to acknowledge bad things as bad does not solve the problem.
well, we can't very well simply refuse to make a decission on the matter until it's too late.
but revelations is pretty clear that hell was created for satan, not by satan.
God, if we are to view him as 3x omni, knew at creation that he would be condemning billions and billions to eternal suffering under the rules he devised. but let's set that aside a moment. I still have trouble with the idea that we "choose" to go to hell. Obviously, those who don't believe in God aren't doing so because eternal suffering doesn't sound so bad to them, but because they have been convinced by the situation they are in that either a different religion is true (often with the same threat of hell for members of other religions) or that no God is likely to exist, or that we cannot know the nature of God. God, if omnipotent, has plenty of power to make himself known. Not just as a "still small voice" that seems to exist in every religion telling various people to believe various things, but in grand undeniable ways. If you see your child doing something dangerous, do you:
suffering occurs even for believers. I am no less happy and content now than I was as a believer.
That's right, we are an evolved animal driven by instincts which we CAN understand and control.
keep in mind, we are all playing the game by the rules he has implemented. Well, according to christianity anyway.
You need to make absolutely sure, my brother, that the fact you have made and expressed such a facetious "decision" in this matter regarding your Lord and Savior is not an indication that your heart is hardened and that "too late" has arrived.[serious];49771854 said:
Yes, in the act of rebelling against God and seeking to distance himself from his Creator, he simultaneously--and i am sure inadvertently--prepared for himself a place meeting this criteria. SIN CARRIES ITS OWN PUNISHMENTS.[serious];49771854 said:
Our sins condemn us, not God. God has spelled out, quite clearly, that all sin contains within it the seeds of its punishment. Yes, God foreknew His creatures' rebellion and its consequences before the foundation of the earth so He prepared the antidote--His beloved Son--which He, out of Love for us, gifted us with as an antidote for our spiritual illness.[serious];49771854 said:
The choice is made when the sin is committed. By sin and rebellion, the person chooses to willfully separate themselves from God. Given their God-given freewill to make that choice, there is NOTHING God can do to get the offender to reverse course but to plead with them to do so and offer the means of doing so--the gift of His Only Begotten Son.[serious];49771854 said:
ALL God's ways are both "grand" and "undeniable." The fact that we choose to close our eyes and plug our ears is on us--not Him. Why is it so hard for atheists to take responsibility for their own choices and their consequences? It appears to me to be a sign of serious immaturity--even for self-labeled "evolved animals".[serious];49771854 said:
God has done both. The Bible is His written Word to us; His Son, our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ, is His living Word, gifted to us out of His great Love and Compassion for us. Neither has been heeded by many--if not most--people for one lame excuse or another, escuses which won't hold up under scrutiny when the time comes.[serious];49771854 said:
If you had been a believer, you would know your Lord and His characteristics and would not have made the statements you did at the beginning of this post regarding His lack of humility, etc. You may have learned second-hand some things about Him, and you may have even provisionally mentally and temporarily accepted them as being true. However, if you had ever met your Lord face-to-face, we would not be having this conversation as you would have willingly allowed yourself to be crucified upside down before saying such things about the One who Loves you eternally without limits. Perhaps your position as a "believer" was that which was described as being, "As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up."(Matthew 13:4) Sad![serious];49771854 said:
YOU ARE NOT an evolved animal.[serious];49771854 said:
I was devout for the first 20+years of my life. I had the whole personal relationship thing going. I wasn't one of those people who was raised christian and just stuck with it by inertia. Actually, my deconversion came after steadily increasing commitment and growing faith. I felt led to explore my faith by carefully and neutrally examining what I believed and why I believed it. I was and still am completely confident that the God I had known for my entire life would not let me stray beyond the bounds of salvation. Throughout that questioning period I continued to pray and even now I pray. I feel the same connection I did before. I still read the bible and have a great love for it. For me at least deconversion was not a loss of faith, but a culmination of it. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. So please, do not fall into the trap of simply dismissing other's experience as not being relevant because you assume there weren't Real Christians
I am, of course, using a game as a metaphor for life. The comment about "evolved animal" was more pointing out that recognizing our past and the role of instinct does not make us powerless to overcome those instincts when it suits us. In fact, recognizing the way our mind and emotions work allows us to tailor our approach to decision making to play to our strengths.
There is no such thing as deconversion. Conversion is based upon establishing a face-to-face relationship with Jesus Christ. Once you have met that most wonderous, most Loving, and been eternally blessed in your relationship with Him, there is no chance of your turning away let alone "deconverting"--whatever that means beyond being an oxymoron.[serious];49774060 said:
For the truly converted lovers of God, the past is crucified, dead, and buried. The new life of the Resurrection prevails. Yours appears alive and well--which perhaps proves my first point above.[serious];49774060 said:
Without God, we have no strengths to "play to"--for all our strength is in Him. Therefore, the weaker we become, the stronger we are. You again prove my first point above.[serious];49774060 said:
Day by day, "contemporary christianity" is becoming more and more of an oxymoron. May God forgive us![serious];49774881 said:
[serious];49767430 said:
