On the goodness of God

[DarkProphet]

Reading through the answers from my other questions I came across a few that boil down to "(something or another) because God is good". On the surface the worst part about this statement is simply that believing that God is good comes down to a matter of trust, I suppose that is the nature of faith, however the deeper problem lays in the fact that according to Christian doctrine God is also the measure of good. This means that by definition God is good no matter what he does. Do a quick summary of the Old Testament and you get God ordering brother to kill brother, God ordering genocides, and God killing every man, woman, and child expect for Noah and his family. My question is how can you reconcile this with your current sense of morality? Also if God is your source of morality does that mean that you would approve of genocide if you felt God ordered it?

 

[childofGod31]

We don't know God's plan and why He does certain things. We don't see "the big picture". We might see a part of the house (in a drawing) and wonder what in the world it is (if we can't see the other part). I imagine this world and whatever happens is something like that. We are just a creation. We know only what God wanted us to know. He, as the Creator, has that right.

I would do whatever God told me to do, but the fact is: He told us to love everybody and to turn the other cheek. He told us to love even our enemies and to pay evil with good. This sounds like a good God. And this doesn't sound like a genocide to me.

I don't pretend to understand why some people won't be saved.

But I choose to trust Him. What is the alternative? To trust Satan? No way.

 

[DarkProphet]

But I choose to trust Him. What is the alternative? To trust Satan?

The world is not so black and white, there are other alternatives.

 

[Rafael]

When a surgeon goes after a cancer, does he leave a little bit of it alive inside the body just because he feels sorry for it or has moral obligation to let that living thing remain alive alrhough it is killing the rest of the body?
The Bible lists the sins of those who met His wrath, and many times if not all being recorded, they had fair warning to repent. Failing to repent, they met with eventual destruction. Each person has law written upon their hearts, as the Bible says, and it doesn't take a book to let a person know when they have killed or been hateful - commiting sin. Their conscience tells them and warns them, but eventually, even the conscience can be seared by continuous sin against the knowledge of the truth that lies within, making them dead to the truth and to true life.

Romans 1:18-22 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. ¶ They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities––his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.
Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools.

Verse 25 in summary: "They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise!"

 

[ebia]

Reading through the answers from my other questions I came across a few that boil down to "(something or another) because God is good". On the surface the worst part about this statement is simply that believing that God is good comes down to a matter of trust, I suppose that is the nature of faith, however the deeper problem lays in the fact that according to Christian doctrine God is also the measure of good.

Depending what you mean, that would be according to the doctrine of someChristians.

Do a quick summary of the Old Testament and you get God ordering brother to kill brother, God ordering genocides, and God killing every man, woman, and child expect for Noah and his family. My question is how can you reconcile this with your current sense of morality? Also if God is your source of morality does that mean that you would approve of genocide if you felt God ordered it?

They are stories and accounts written by people still trying to understand God.

 

[MelissaShae]

He sent his only son here to be tortured and crucified for the sins of all of us so that we could have eternal life with Him......can't get much better that and if God's love doesn't show thru that then nothing will.

 

[MethodMan]

Reading through the answers from my other questions I came across a few that boil down to "(something or another) because God is good". On the surface the worst part about this statement is simply that believing that God is good comes down to a matter of trust, I suppose that is the nature of faith, however the deeper problem lays in the fact that according to Christian doctrine God is also the measure of good. This means that by definition God is good no matter what he does. Do a quick summary of the Old Testament and you get God ordering brother to kill brother, God ordering genocides, and God killing every man, woman, and child expect for Noah and his family. My question is how can you reconcile this with your current sense of morality? Also if God is your source of morality does that mean that you would approve of genocide if you felt God ordered it?

If you had a child and one day walked into the kitchen to find that child with their hand stuck over the stove and they were being burned alive, would you take steps to remove that child from their trap?

 

[Deren]

Reading through the answers from my other questions I came across a few that boil down to "(something or another) because God is good". On the surface the worst part about this statement is simply that believing that God is good comes down to a matter of trust, I suppose that is the nature of faith, however the deeper problem lays in the fact that according to Christian doctrine God is also the measure of good. This means that by definition God is good no matter what he does. Do a quick summary of the Old Testament and you get God ordering brother to kill brother, God ordering genocides, and God killing every man, woman, and child expect for Noah and his family. My question is how can you reconcile this with your current sense of morality?

Easy. It's called context. For if you will also do a perusal of the events you describe above, they didn't just take place indescriminately. There was a reason, and there was mercy involved as well. If you fail to take those things into account, then sure, God can be made out to be the worst tyrrant of tyrrants. But, then again, so could anyone else, if we simply left out "the rest of the story."

Also if God is your source of morality does that mean that you would approve of genocide if you felt God ordered it?

Absolutely. But once again, you've got to include context. For if you leave that out, and others use the same approach to judging you, then it won't be long until you're accused of all kinds of things that are not true as well.

 

[DarkProphet]

If you had a child and one day walked into the kitchen to find that child with their hand stuck over the stove and they were being burned alive, would you take steps to remove that child from their trap?

I fail to see what this has to do with the original question. In any case I would not need to remove the child because the child would remove them self from the stove.

 

[MethodMan]

I fail to see what this has to do with the original question. In any case I would not need to remove the child because the child would them self from the stove.

I undersatnd you fail to see the relevance the same as you fail to God as the source of all things good. As I said, the child is trapped, unable to move on his own. What would you do?

 

[DarkProphet]

I undersatnd you fail to see the relevance the same as you fail to God as the source of all things good. As I said, the child is trapped, unable to move on his own. What would you do?

This is an odd hypothetical but fine... I would remove the child from the situation. Now, what does this have to do with the original question?

 

[MethodMan]

This is an odd hypothetical but fine... I would remove the child from the situation. Now, what does this have to do with the original question?

Your question:

My question is how can you reconcile this with your current sense of morality?

You are that child. Your flesh is burning away in sinful torment. God will remove you from that existence. One way or another. Do you prefer to rest in His Grace or face His Wrath?

Also if God is your source of morality does that mean that you would approve of genocide if you felt God ordered it?

That would contradict what is written in the scirptures, so I would say "Get behind me Satan" to anything that would suggest such a thing.

 

[DarkProphet]

Your question:

My question is how can you reconcile this with your current sense of morality?

You are that child. Your flesh is burning away in sinful torment. God will remove you from that existence. One way or another. Do you prefer to rest in His Grace or face His Wrath?

See this is were the analogy is flawed. According to Christian doctrine God is also the one who put me in that situation in the first place. It would be like someone forcing a child's hand on the stove and then removing it. Would you declare that person a good person as a result?

Also if God is your source of morality does that mean that you would approve of genocide if you felt God ordered it?

That would contradict what is written in the scirptures, so I would say "Get behind me Satan" to anything that would suggest such a thing.

God does ask for genocide from certain people in the Bible so I fail to see how that would contradict scripture.

 

[MethodMan]

See this is were the analogy is flawed. According to Christian doctrine God is also the one who put me in that situation in the first place. It would be like someone forcing a child's hand on the stove and then removing it. Would you declare that person a good person as a result?

Well, there you are wrong. God gave Man the ability to avoid the trap of sin. Most have a tough time admitting that we are our own worst enemy.

God does ask for genocide from certain people in the Bible so I fail to see how that would contradict scripture.

A better hermeneutic tells one differently. You can continue to focus on what God told Israel to do. What did God tell the Church to do?

 

[DarkProphet]

A better hermeneutic tells one differently. You can continue to focus on what God told Israel to do.

Very well I will disregard half your religious text as you do so.

What did God tell the Church to do?

I don't believe God tells anyone to do anything. My question was would you approve if you felt God told you and on that basis many people have committed many heinous crimes.

 

[MethodMan]

Very well I will disregard half your religious text as you do so.

There is a whole world between disregarding it and knowing what it means in the cotext given.

I don't believe God tells anyone to do anything. My question was would you approve if you felt God told you and on that basis many people have committed many heinous crimes.

As I have already said, if I felt that, I would know it wasn't from God.

 

[HypnoToad]

Very well I will disregard half your religious text as you do so.

Wow, for a skeptic, you'd been fairly reasonable right up to that comment. We do not "disregard half of our religious text". Israel had its covenant with God, the modern church has another covenant with God. Why would we follow a covenant for someone else?

There is old covenant (Old Testament), and there is new covenant (New Testament). The "genocides" you speak of occurred with Israel under the old covenant. With the church today, God has the new covenant. In the context of our covenant, not Israel's, God ordering a genocide does not fit.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Reading through the answers from my other questions I came across a few that boil down to "(something or another) because God is good". On the surface the worst part about this statement is simply that believing that God is good comes down to a matter of trust, I suppose that is the nature of faith, however the deeper problem lays in the fact that according to Christian doctrine God is also the measure of good. This means that by definition God is good no matter what he does. Do a quick summary of the Old Testament and you get God ordering brother to kill brother, God ordering genocides, and God killing every man, woman, and child expect for Noah and his family. My question is how can you reconcile this with your current sense of morality? Also if God is your source of morality does that mean that you would approve of genocide if you felt God ordered it?

God by definition is perfect, why wouldn't you listen to perfection? What other sources of knowledge are greater than the Alpha and the Omega?

And yes, I would do anything that God asks me to do.

 

[DarkProphet]

Wow, for a skeptic, you'd been fairly reasonable right up to that comment. We do not "disregard half of our religious text". Israel had its covenant with God, the modern church has another covenant with God. Why would we follow a covenant for someone else?

I realize that the laws from the OT are nullified by Jesus in the NT but I'm talking about God's actions not his laws. If you accept that the God in the OT is the same as in the NT then you cannot ignore what he has done in the OT.

There is old covenant (Old Testament), and there is new covenant (New Testament). The "genocides" you speak of occurred with Israel under the old covenant. With the church today, God has the new covenant. In the context of our covenant, not Israel's, God ordering a genocide does not fit.

So basically you are saying that God ordered Jews to commit genocide and not Christians. Why would their be a distinction between what God orders Jews to do and what he orders Christians to do?

 

[DarkProphet]

And yes, I would do anything that God asks me to do.

And this is the scariest part of your religion. If you would do anything you felt God told you to do then you are one step away from committing any kind of heinous act because you had a feeling that it was the right thing to do.