On the clouds?

[Pacigoth13]

This goes back to the whole "on the clouds" problem. Perhaps this post will be clearer than some in the past in conveying what my initial point always was...

Here are the questions before us:
1. Is there a second coming?
2. If so, when is it?
3. If so, how are we to understand what it is?

We'll return to the "clouds" discussion when we get to the third point.

 

[Pacigoth13]

1. Is there a second coming of Jesus?

I.e., will Jesus in the glorified, resurrected form that he had when ascended come back the way he came?

The creeds state "He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead".

--He will come again...

This is clearly presented in the 1st chapter of Acts. Acts follows narrative format, not apocalyptic/prophetic.

Furthermore, the culmination of the Kingdom 'on earth as it is heaven' and the day when 'every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Christ is Lord' and pointing forward to the point where God is 'all in all' in a sense of realised panentheism all make the presence of both Jesus and God and the Spirit on earth as full as that presence can be.

So yes, the coming of God to all that is is eventually necessary. There is a consummation point, there is a "blessed hope" for the Church.

My point is not to say that the above is not true, or "won't happen" or something otherwise cooky like that. My point is to say that we have so misunderstood the second coming and eschatology by cluttering it with irrelevant points from apocalyptic and prophetic streams to the point where we may as well replace

"on earth as it is in heaven"
with
"on earth as it is in hell"

--He will come again in glory

obviously. Jesus is glorified, so whatever Jesus does takes place in glory

--He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead

This is a simple connection with the final resurrection and the final white throne judgment with the full presence of God being poured out on all creation.

This makes all of this not so much a future event in time/space as it does tell us what it means for time to end and for creation to be renewed. The renewal of the earth and the consummation of the kingdom makes judgment necessary. Again, it is not a future event, it is the telos of all events. It can even be said that in part it happens whenever someone dies and meets God--but it is all not yet fulfilled.

The telos has begun, is in process now, and will be completed/realised when all is said and done.

To be continued...

 

[Pacigoth13]

2. If so, when is it?

Obviously, we cannot really say. We can't put future contingents on free agents, so we have to take the "wait and see" approach.

Here is what we can say... that a second coming hasn't happened yet. This can be said simply because we can't be at the consummation yet. There is still evil, there is still places where the Kingdom needs to grow, there is still time, things are still in process, etc. etc.

Thus, it doesn't help us that preterists claim the second coming in 70 CE.

Something great and apocalyptic and prophetic happened in 66-70 CE with the closing of the temple and opening of the Church--yes--
second coming, no.

 

[Pacigoth13]

3.

To be continued in a future thread...