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On submission in the bible

Rhamiel

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Mutual submission doesn't sound like submission at all to me, so I personally don't see the point in using that word to refer to an egalitarian relationship model. It's not very useful.

egalitarian, puts emphasis on personal liberty and equality

mutual submission, puts its emphasis on the Christian ideal of self sacrifice

I do agree that the term "mutual submission" is kind of a clunky term

personally, I think a complimentarian view is more in keeping with the traditions and practices of Christianity
 
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Goodbook

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Where wives are advised to submit to their husbands, husbands are advised to love and cherish their wives.

does this mean wives aren't also meant to love and cherish their husbands and husbands aren't meant to submit to their wives? what do you think?
 
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Goodbook

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i will just post the whole passage

Ephesians 5:21-6:4King James Version (KJV)
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
 
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Goodbook

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to me..it seems to say that if you are married, you submit to your husband exclusively like to the Lord. if you are not, you just submit to each other in fear of God. I don't think being single excludes you from submitting to each other....being married just means your first person to submit to is your own husband...and it seems to me, this piece of advice is especially for women BECAUSE Eve went and did her own thing and didn't listen to Adam. She was easily decieved by the serpent. But Adam was at fault because he abdicated his headship and responsibility to protect Eve, to love her and stop her from foolish action. God had spoken to him first, he relayed it to Eve. Eve was not hearing from God, only through Adam.

thats why God punished him a bit more severely, as he was responsible for looking after her.
 
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Messy

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I once heard that women are first told to respect him because then they automatically also love him or that that comes first or something.
I even read about a woman who just for no good reason, she was angry with her family or something, just married some guy she didn't even love and when she got saved she started to respect him and listen to him and do what the Bible says and then she really loved him and they got a good marriage.
 
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Sketcher

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It can soften attitudes towards one's spouse in many cases. Sometimes it even works both ways.

The principle to keep in mind (as I have been taught) is to focus on your responsibility in the relationship rather than your spouse's. Stop keeping score of what he or she is doing wrong, focus on the right that you are to do. Ideally, both people will do that. But if nobody's doing it, it's your job as the Christ-follower to be the catalyst.
 
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Cearbhall

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egalitarian, puts emphasis on personal liberty and equality

mutual submission, puts its emphasis on the Christian ideal of self sacrifice
That's fair. It adds the fact that they're both giving to each other.
 
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Cearbhall

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still kind of a clunky inorganic term
I just tend not to like the term "submission" because of the connotations. Usually when people use the term in a religious context, they're saying what they think other people should do rather than talking about it as something that they want to do. I have no problem with people freely choosing it, but being brainwashed into it is another beast entirely. I'm actually much more comfortable with the way that D/s relationships function in non-religious contexts.
 
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Rhamiel

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really?
I was thinking something kind of the opposite
many people seem "brainwashed" into rejecting traditional gender roles

a Christian relationship, any relationship, should be based on love, on seeking what is best for the other person.

while non-religious D/s relationships can be based on love, love is not strictly necessary for such a relationship to take place.
so even if the relationship between Christians had some qualities of a D/s relationship, it would be based on love (ideally) and not just about power


when I say love, I mean love in the Christian sense
true love seeks the best interest of the beloved
"for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son"
too many people reduce love to sentimentality
 
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Cearbhall

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really?
I was thinking something kind of the opposite
many people seem "brainwashed" into rejecting traditional gender roles
I'm not really sure how a person can be brainwashed into not adopting gender roles that have almost completely been constructed by culture. That idea seems a bit strange to me. I wouldn't say that I've been brainwashed into rejecting Sharia law, for example. It would first have to be relevant to my life and cultural experience for me to have "rejected" it.
 
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Rhamiel

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rhamiel, sorry what's a d/s relationship?

I think she meant Dominant and Submissive relationships

where one party is the "Dom" and the other party is the "Sub"

she said that she was more comfortable with such a relationship among non-religious people

I said I did not agree, because a Christian relationship should be based on love
while relationships among non-religious people do not necessarily have that as the ideal

(I am not saying that non-religious people can not love, that would be silly)
 
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Goodbook

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er..I don't understand. in the Bible, the husband isn't called to 'dominate' his wife, he's advised to 'love and cherish' her. While the wife is advised to 'submit' that does not mean the husband is to dominate. Being a head doesn't mean you dominate, otherwise Jesus would 'dominate' us, because he is the head of the church. I've never regarded Jesus as a 'dominator'. He leads us, yet he serves us, he comes in the form of a servant. I guess that's the paradox...
 
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Goodbook

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in the OT, Adam was to have dominion over all the animals and earth and subdue it, but not over his wife. His wife is NOT an animal, she is made from him.
When God punished them for disobedience, he did say Adam would rule over Eve and her desire would be for him. But that doesn't mean that pattern stays in the NT. Because Jesus came to break the curse.
 
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Rhamiel

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You have a Christian understanding of love

many people misunderstand this

to lead, but not dominate

not to be dominant out of selfish pride and appetite
but rather, seeking the to love your wife
with a Biblical view of love as seeking the best for the beloved
 
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Cearbhall

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I think she meant Dominant and Submissive relationships

where one party is the "Dom" and the other party is the "Sub"
Yes, but there's a whole spectrum of power dynamics in relationships. I was just using the term to encompass them all. If one person in a relationship has the final word in the household and is seen as the HOH and spiritual head, that's one version. That's a dominant trait.
er..I don't understand. in the Bible, the husband isn't called to 'dominate' his wife, he's advised to 'love and cherish' her. While the wife is advised to 'submit' that does not mean the husband is to dominate.
It's a loose term. If one person is submitting to the will of the other, that's a power dynamic. Is this not the sort of submission that you're thinking of?
 
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SnowyMacie

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many people seem "brainwashed" into rejecting traditional gender roles

The thing about gender roles is that they're almost entirely made up. We have an obsession with gender in our society, both liberals and conservatives. Men and women, naturally, aren't that psychologically different, but that's hard to really go too much furthet since the problem is how ingrained gender is in our society it becomes hard to separate nature from environment.


In any relationship ever, one person is going to be more dominant than the other.
 
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