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On Modrn Health, and Conspiracy Theories

Stephen3141

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Although it is popular to try to "politicize" all sorts of topics, today,
modern healthcare is based on modern science. And modern science has a very
rigorous methodology to test and verify that potential cures for diseases, actually
do work.

Christians who do not acknowledge the rigorous logical methodology of modern
science, probably also do not recognize the same types of rigorous logical
methodology in studying the biblical languages, and the components of critical
Bible study tools and skills.

Although the modern "hard" sciences do not have the basic vocabulary to describe
or discuss moral-ethical models, virtues and vices, no Christian should expect them
to have this ability. This moral-ethical vocabulary is the domain of philosophical
Moral Theory, and is fully discussed by Christian theologians and Christian
philosophers -- it is NOT the domain of healthcare specialists. No Christian
should expect the healthcare specialists to be experts in biblical morality. Nor
should any Christian think that a Christian religious leader, should be an expert in
modern healthcare. These mistakes would be a type of categorical mistake, about
what an "authority" in an area of knowledge, means.
---------- ----------

American Christians need to get in the habit of letting knowledge domain experts,
lead the discussions about topics in their domain of knowledge.

Ignoring the rigorously gained data in a domain of knowledge, and substituting a
personal opinion, or popular gossip, in its place, is a form of "bearing false witness"
about our shared reality. That is, it is a form of LYING. And REGARDLESS OF THE
DOMAIN OF KNOWLEDGE BEING ADDRESSED, Christians are forbidden by the
biblical moral-ethical code, from LYING.
---------- ---------

Kennedy has a long history of ignoring, and denying the huge library of data
on various types of modern healthcare. Just as he is unfit to be considered
an authoritative interpreter of the Bible, so too, he is unfit to be a manager of
American healthcare. This is not a political interpretation -- it is an observation
that he seems incapable of meaningfully dealing with the modern methodology
of the hard sciences.
 

Laodicean60

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Although it is popular to try to "politicize" all sorts of topics, today,
modern healthcare is based on modern science. And modern science has a very
rigorous methodology to test and verify that potential cures for diseases, actually
do work.
Like you are doing here? RFK has some good points can you name a few?
Christians who do not acknowledge the rigorous logical methodology of modern
science, probably also do not recognize the same types of rigorous logical
methodology in studying the biblical languages, and the components of critical
Bible study tools and skills.
Sounds a little arrogant to me but what does your science say about statins and cholesterol, ultra-processed food, and added sugars, the science on natural immunity? When it comes to science do you believe in corporate science like big tobacco and sugar?
 
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Stephen3141

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A religious sect deprived an 8 year old girl of insulin, and she died
as a result. 14 people in the sect, have been found guilty of
manslaughter.

Curiously, North American Christians who are anti-intellectual, do not seem to
see themselves as members of a Christian "sect", that, by their anti-intellectualism,
are preparing their children for near-poverty, in the current American economy.

Being anti-intellectual, is NOT some sort of core historical Christian doctrine.
 
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stevevw

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Although it is popular to try to "politicize" all sorts of topics, today,
modern healthcare is based on modern science. And modern science has a very
rigorous methodology to test and verify that potential cures for diseases, actually
do work.

Christians who do not acknowledge the rigorous logical methodology of modern
science, probably also do not recognize the same types of rigorous logical
methodology in studying the biblical languages, and the components of critical
Bible study tools and skills.

Although the modern "hard" sciences do not have the basic vocabulary to describe
or discuss moral-ethical models, virtues and vices, no Christian should expect them
to have this ability. This moral-ethical vocabulary is the domain of philosophical
Moral Theory, and is fully discussed by Christian theologians and Christian
philosophers -- it is NOT the domain of healthcare specialists. No Christian
should expect the healthcare specialists to be experts in biblical morality. Nor
should any Christian think that a Christian religious leader, should be an expert in
modern healthcare. These mistakes would be a type of categorical mistake, about
what an "authority" in an area of knowledge, means.
---------- ----------

American Christians need to get in the habit of letting knowledge domain experts,
lead the discussions about topics in their domain of knowledge.
Though there is such a dicipline as philosophy of science. Science is one thing but how its applied and used is another.
Ignoring the rigorously gained data in a domain of knowledge, and substituting a
personal opinion, or popular gossip, in its place, is a form of "bearing false witness"
about our shared reality. That is, it is a form of LYING. And REGARDLESS OF THE
DOMAIN OF KNOWLEDGE BEING ADDRESSED, Christians are forbidden by the
biblical moral-ethical code, from LYING.
For the most part yes but I think most objections are not based on subjective beliefs but reasonable questioning scientific claims. Just because a scientist makes a finding or claim doesn't mean that they also are not subject to bias.

Look at gender identity. 20 years ago gender was regarded by social scientists as a social construction and biological sex the objective reality. Now its the other way around and gender identity is the objective reality and biological sex the social construction. The only think that has changed are the political ideology of the scientists who make these claims.
Kennedy has a long history of ignoring, and denying the huge library of data
on various types of modern healthcare. Just as he is unfit to be considered
an authoritative interpreter of the Bible, so too, he is unfit to be a manager of
American healthcare. This is not a political interpretation -- it is an observation
that he seems incapable of meaningfully dealing with the modern methodology
of the hard sciences.
If your going to bring in the ability to be an authoritive interpreter of the bible then we can call into question just about every politician. But especially those on the left who re interpret the bible to conform with their political ideology.

I think the main benefit of Kennedy is that he has made this issue his platform and its basically about making Americans healthy again. He mentions the additives that are poisoning generations and I tend to agree. Allergies, diseases, genetic disorders, and mental disorders have increased tremendously.

Anyone who is willing to tackle this monster of a problem will be good. As we know that theres a lot of vested interests in bi pharma and politicians who are making fortunes off big health corps. Profits should not be put before people.

I have seen no other politician willing to take this on and its overdue. I would have thought Christains would support exposing lies and the ways big business is making people sick and not better and destroying the environment.
 
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Stephen3141

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Though there is such a dicipline as philosophy of science. Science is one thing but how its applied and used is another.

For the most part yes but I think most objections are not based on subjective beliefs but reasonable questioning scientific claims. Just because a scientist makes a finding or claim doesn't mean that they also are not subject to bias.

Look at gender identity. 20 years ago gender was regarded by social scientists as a social construction and biological sex the objective reality. Now its the other way around and gender identity is the objective reality and biological sex the social construction. The only think that has changed are the political ideology of the scientists who make these claims.

If your going to bring in the ability to be an authoritive interpreter of the bible then we can call into question just about every politician. But especially those on the left who re interpret the bible to conform with their political ideology.

I think the main benefit of Kennedy is that he has made this issue his platform and its basically about making Americans healthy again. He mentions the additives that are poisoning generations and I tend to agree. Allergies, diseases, genetic disorders, and mental disorders have increased tremendously.

Anyone who is willing to tackle this monster of a problem will be good. As we know that theres a lot of vested interests in bi pharma and politicians who are making fortunes off big health corps. Profits should not be put before people.

I have seen no other politician willing to take this on and its overdue. I would have thought Christains would support exposing lies and the ways big business is making people sick and not better and destroying the environment.

I agree that Kennedy is bringing up questions that no other politician
is centering on.

But, this does not make him qualified to manage massive numbers of
scientists, given his history of ignoring the rigorous methods of inquiry
and testing, that scientists have done in the past.
 
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stevevw

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I agree that Kennedy is bringing up questions that no other politician
is centering on.

But, this does not make him qualified to manage massive numbers of
scientists, given his history of ignoring the rigorous methods of inquiry
and testing, that scientists have done in the past.
I am sure Kennedy is not the actual one doing the investigations and this would be done by professionals in those fields. This is more than a one man job but a team effort with probably several heads overseering things.

The first thing I would imagine is just testing and verifying data on health. What exactly is behind poor health. But a lot is obvious. We know these additives are not good. So its more about regulations to change this and creating healthier standards. Thats going to be less about health and more about legalities.

But what I can't understand with all those complaining about Kennedy is that he is being shot down before hes had a chance. We have heard all the complaining and ad hominems from the left, Trumps a Nazi, Gabbards a Russian stool, Musk is a nutcase, Vance is an extremist and just about every nominee is labelled as some crazy or immoral person before they have even had a chance.

Yet people seem to have nothing to say about the present state of affairs thats been going on for years which is literally making people sick. Its like the pot calling the kettle black. Dems who have resided over big health killing our kids and they have a hide to question someone who wants to do something about it.

Bringing up unfounded comspiracy theories. How about we deal with the real conspiracy thats been happening for years with politicians and coporations vested interests in exploiting peoples health for profits.

Just the simple fact that Trump and Kennedy are wanting to bring this up which is something governments have ignored should be applauded. I would have thought anything is better than the status quo. If they achieve half of what they intend to then its much better than the absolute nothing being done at the moment.
 
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Aaron112

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I have seen no other politician willing to take this on and its overdue. I would have thought Christains would support exposing lies and the ways big business is making people sick and not better and destroying the environment.
A lot of persons 'might' have thought so too, and likely a multitude of persons still thinks so.. just like unwary individuals 'might' think they can find, test, identify and verify what is true and what is not truth on this forum, at least in some categories. Sorry. Nope. Numbers and money and rules is more enforced and protected and desired than truth.
 
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Aaron112

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the rigorous methods of inquiry
and testing, that scientists have done in the past.
From all that has been seen in the last century, the germany scientists from wwII had more influence over all american drugmaking and covering up truth and nutrition
than any Christian had , could have, or has at all today.
 
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stevevw

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A lot of persons 'might' have thought so too, and likely a multitude of persons still thinks so.. just like unwary individuals 'might' think they can find, test, identify and verify what is true and what is not truth on this forum, at least in some categories. Sorry. Nope. Numbers and money and rules is more enforced and protected and desired than truth.
Yes the truth according to society has been corrupted and anything now claimed as truth or is in our best interest is a lie. BUt thats a pity because in doing so its misled and harmed a lot of people.

But in the end the truth always comes out and in this case generations later we are seeing the damaging effects that will take generations to fix if not never be fixed. In fact the damage done has already damaged future generations and will probably effect generations after that. We reap what we sow.
 
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Stephen3141

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I am sure Kennedy is not the actual one doing the investigations and this would be done by professionals in those fields. This is more than a one man job but a team effort with probably several heads overseering things.

The first thing I would imagine is just testing and verifying data on health. What exactly is behind poor health. But a lot is obvious. We know these additives are not good. So its more about regulations to change this and creating healthier standards. Thats going to be less about health and more about legalities.

But what I can't understand with all those complaining about Kennedy is that he is being shot down before hes had a chance. We have heard all the complaining and ad hominems from the left, Trumps a Nazi, Gabbards a Russian stool, Musk is a nutcase, Vance is an extremist and just about every nominee is labelled as some crazy or immoral person before they have even had a chance.

Yet people seem to have nothing to say about the present state of affairs thats been going on for years which is literally making people sick. Its like the pot calling the kettle black. Dems who have resided over big health killing our kids and they have a hide to question someone who wants to do something about it.

Bringing up unfounded comspiracy theories. How about we deal with the real conspiracy thats been happening for years with politicians and coporations vested interests in exploiting peoples health for profits.

Just the simple fact that Trump and Kennedy are wanting to bring this up which is something governments have ignored should be applauded. I would have thought anything is better than the status quo. If they achieve half of what they intend to then its much better than the absolute nothing being done at the moment.

(Kennedy has already had his chance.

He has formally written, in the past, about the uselessness of vaccines.
And he has rejected the scientific data, from controlled studies, in the past,
that have upheld the goodness of vaccines.

Kennedy has claimed that additives tovaccines, have made them causes of
autism. But, these vaccines, with everything in them, have been rigorously tested
for safety, and found to NOT cause autism.

It's not a question of giving him a chance. Kennedy does not have the good judgment
to follow the complete process of modern sciences, and testing.)
 
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Stephen3141

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As an aside, there is now a test, from a strand of hair of a kid, that can
rule out that they are on the autism spectrum, with about 90% accuracy.

The obvious problem with the "spectrum", is that one can have some marker
genes, but that they may never activate and present symptoms. And so, this
type of gene test for autism, has a builtin inaccuracy.
 
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stevevw

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(Kennedy has already had his chance.

He has formally written, in the past, about the uselessness of vaccines.
And he has rejected the scientific data, from controlled studies, in the past,
that have upheld the goodness of vaccines.

Kennedy has claimed that additives tovaccines, have made them causes of
autism. But, these vaccines, with everything in them, have been rigorously tested
for safety, and found to NOT cause autism.

It's not a question of giving him a chance. Kennedy does not have the good judgment
to follow the complete process of modern sciences, and testing.)
But if we are using the idea of good judgement as the criteria then the so called experts that have proven the science seem to have also caused a lot of sickness. Your more or less advocating for more of the same. The so called experts are not as great as you think.

Sure obvious benefits of vaccines have been proven and theres little evidence that they cause harm. THe good outweighs the bad nevertheless. But there are many examples where the science was not so great and this needs to be addressed.

I don't think anyone has taken on the job of health without some preconcieved ideas or without some bias that influences the outcomes for what is allowed and seen as good.

So in that sense I say lets see how things go. If its based on the science and everyone is transparent about the science then the science will win out. I think if anything Kennedy is advocating for the science. HIs views may be a little off on some things but his reasons for questioning the system is the science. He claims theres counter evidence for his position and not that its just a belief.

So the important think is they are taking a scientific based approach and so the science can be presented and if it shows the vaccines are safe then theres no arguements. But if there is evidence for other treatments and medications that are causing harm (which there definitely is) then its good that someone is at last challenging big corp and pharma and the politicians who benefit from them in biasing the facts and making us all sick.

The fact is people are getting sicker and its the present system thats doing it. Most of it is from the stuff we put in our food and medications. Or the over supply and reliance on medications when other healthier options were available. Its good that this basic problem is being addressed as no one has done so for decades and its such an obvious prevention that should not be happening.
 
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Johan2222

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Although it is popular to try to "politicize" all sorts of topics, today,
modern healthcare is based on modern science. And modern science has a very
rigorous methodology to test and verify that potential cures for diseases, actually
do work.

Christians who do not acknowledge the rigorous logical methodology of modern
science, probably also do not recognize the same types of rigorous logical
methodology in studying the biblical languages, and the components of critical
Bible study tools and skills.

Although the modern "hard" sciences do not have the basic vocabulary to describe
or discuss moral-ethical models, virtues and vices, no Christian should expect them
to have this ability. This moral-ethical vocabulary is the domain of philosophical
Moral Theory, and is fully discussed by Christian theologians and Christian
philosophers -- it is NOT the domain of healthcare specialists. No Christian
should expect the healthcare specialists to be experts in biblical morality. Nor
should any Christian think that a Christian religious leader, should be an expert in
modern healthcare. These mistakes would be a type of categorical mistake, about
what an "authority" in an area of knowledge, means.
---------- ----------

American Christians need to get in the habit of letting knowledge domain experts,
lead the discussions about topics in their domain of knowledge.

Ignoring the rigorously gained data in a domain of knowledge, and substituting a
personal opinion, or popular gossip, in its place, is a form of "bearing false witness"
about our shared reality. That is, it is a form of LYING. And REGARDLESS OF THE
DOMAIN OF KNOWLEDGE BEING ADDRESSED, Christians are forbidden by the
biblical moral-ethical code, from LYING.
---------- ---------

Kennedy has a long history of ignoring, and denying the huge library of data
on various types of modern healthcare. Just as he is unfit to be considered
an authoritative interpreter of the Bible, so too, he is unfit to be a manager of
American healthcare. This is not a political interpretation -- it is an observation
that he seems incapable of meaningfully dealing with the modern methodology
of the hard sciences.
Everybody lives in the modern era.

Doesn’t matter what generation you are brought up in, you are living in the modern era.

Everybody thinks their generation has figured it out because they are the latest one, “the modern generation.”

You can just imagine the Egyptians 2000 years ago saying;

You know everybody knows that you cannot heal somebody’s eyesight by putting clay on their eyelids. That is ridiculous.

Everybody knows you can’t bring somebody back to life just by calling into a tomb and telling someone to come out of it. That is utterly ridiculous.

Am I saying that I have never used modern medicine or modern facilities in modern hospitals?

No.

Do I think that Elijah or Elisha or Samuel or Daniel would use modern hospitals if they were alive today?

No, by no means. Absolutely not at all.

Why not?

Well for a number of reasons, all related to the fact that they were more faithful and obedient to God than anyone alive today.

Modern medicine is highly esteemed by man.

Luke 16:15 KJV
. . . for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

The technology of modern medicine is worshipped and the worship of it is clearly revealed in proud words of great praise.

Jeremiah 1:16 KJV
And I will utter my judgments against them touching all their wickedness, who have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, and worshipped the works of their own hands.

There is a lot of finger pointing and complaining about many leaders in many countries all over the world, but does the Bible not say that God will give us over to the rule of wicked leaders if we do not walk in his ways?

The faithful walk in obedience and God blesses them with righteous leaders and health and contentment.

All of man’s problems are always related to his disobedience to God and pointing fingers at our leaders is not going to solve them, on the contrary, doing so has only ever aroused God’s wrath in a greater way because those leaders are always ordained over us because of our sinful ways.

God may hear our cries and because of his great mercy he may lead us out of bondage, but if he does, be prepared to be led into the desert and utterly destroyed for the wickedness of our ways.

Complaining and finger pointing is never the answer.
 
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Stephen3141

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Everybody lives in the modern era.

Doesn’t matter what generation you are brought up in, you are living in the modern era.

Everybody thinks their generation has figured it out because they are the latest one, “the modern generation.”

You can just imagine the Egyptians 2000 years ago saying;

You know everybody knows that you cannot heal somebody’s eyesight by putting clay on their eyelids. That is ridiculous.

Everybody knows you can’t bring somebody back to life just by calling into a tomb and telling someone to come out of it. That is utterly ridiculous.

Am I saying that I have never used modern medicine or modern facilities in modern hospitals?

No.

Do I think that Elijah or Elisha or Samuel or Daniel would use modern hospitals if they were alive today?

No, by no means. Absolutely not at all.

Why not?

Well for a number of reasons, all related to the fact that they were more faithful and obedient to God than anyone alive today.

Modern medicine is highly esteemed by man.

Luke 16:15 KJV
. . . for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

The technology of modern medicine is worshipped and the worship of it is clearly revealed in proud words of great praise.

Jeremiah 1:16 KJV
And I will utter my judgments against them touching all their wickedness, who have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, and worshipped the works of their own hands.

There is a lot of finger pointing and complaining about many leaders in many countries all over the world, but does the Bible not say that God will give us over to the rule of wicked leaders if we do not walk in his ways?

The faithful walk in obedience and God blesses them with righteous leaders and health and contentment.

All of man’s problems are always related to his disobedience to God and pointing fingers at our leaders is not going to solve them, on the contrary, doing so has only ever aroused God’s wrath in a greater way because those leaders are always ordained over us because of our sinful ways.

God may hear our cries and because of his great mercy he may lead us out of bondage, but if he does, be prepared to be led into the desert and utterly destroyed for the wickedness of our ways.

Complaining and finger pointing is never the answer.

(How do I respond to this post?)

This comment is full of assertions, and questionable interpretations of Scripture.

Arbitrarily sorting "modern medicine" into categories such as arrogance, or
idolatrous trust, IS ARBITRARY.

Historical, orthodox Christians, typically assert that Scripture is reliable,
AS TO WHAT IT ADDRESSES. And, most historical Christians (I assert)
would NOT say that Scripture addresses modern discoveries, in medicine, or
other scientific disciplines. So, Christians do not have to view modern
intellectual discoveries over against the reliability of Scripture.

This comment, is from a distinctively anti-intellectual theological position,
that most historical Christians (I assert) would disagree with.
 
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Johan2222

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This comment, is from a distinctively anti-intellectual theological position,
that most historical Christians (I assert) would disagree with.
Now on that assertion we can definitely agree, but when you are shown that scripture actually supports your claim, what do you suppose might then possess you to refute and devalue the evidence?

Did you ever notice how none of God’s chosen people ever used the opinions of majorities to help defend their assertions?

Did you ever notice how discernment and interpretation of scripture was always confined to the tiniest fraction of those professing knowledge of God, while apostates always used consensus to support their delusions?

John 7:45-48 KJV
Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him? [46] The officers answered, Never man spake like this man. [47] Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived? [48] Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?

Of course if you believe God’s word you are going to expect no different because that thread runs all through scripture.

Matthew 7:13-14 ASV
Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby. [14] For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it.

Matthew 22:14 KJV
For many are called, but few are chosen.

Modern medicine and the technology associated with it is one of the most highly esteemed things on Earth today.

Luke 16:15 KJV
. . .for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Shame that so many people can’t see the truth in front of their faces.
 
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Stephen3141

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Now on that assertion we can definitely agree, but when you are shown that scripture actually supports your claim, what do you suppose might then possess you to refute and devalue the evidence?

Did you ever notice how none of God’s chosen people ever used the opinions of majorities to help defend their assertions?

Did you ever notice how discernment and interpretation of scripture was always confined to the tiniest fraction of those professing knowledge of God, while apostates always used consensus to support their delusions?

John 7:45-48 KJV
Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him? [46] The officers answered, Never man spake like this man. [47] Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived? [48] Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?

Of course if you believe God’s word you are going to expect no different because that thread runs all through scripture.

Matthew 7:13-14 ASV
Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby. [14] For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it.

Matthew 22:14 KJV
For many are called, but few are chosen.

Modern medicine and the technology associated with it is one of the most highly esteemed things on Earth today.

Luke 16:15 KJV
. . .for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Shame that so many people can’t see the truth in front of their faces.

The appeal to a majority opinion, is not enough to establish it as true.

BUT, pointing to a majority opinion, and simply declaring it false because
it is a majority opinion, is also logically dysfunctional.
 
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Johan2222

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The appeal to a majority opinion, is not enough to establish it as true.

BUT, pointing to a majority opinion, and simply declaring it false because
it is a majority opinion, is also logically dysfunctional.

Luke 16:15 KJV
. . .for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Unless of course Stephen3141 decides that the claim is logically dysfunctional, because when he leans unto his own understanding he is wise enough to prove even God wrong.
 
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Stephen3141

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Luke 16:15 KJV
. . .for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Unless of course Stephen3141 decides that the claim is logically dysfunctional, because when he leans unto his own understanding he is wise enough to prove even God wrong.


I was talking specifically about the ad populam logical fallacy.

If you want to be specific about theology, you need to specify
what you think this verse means. Jesus is talking to the Pharisees,
who like to make themselves out as righteous before "men".

I hardly think that Jesus is addressing a larger principle.
 
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Aaron112

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Modern medicine and the technology associated with it is one of the most highly esteemed things on Earth today.
For almost a century it has also been the primary main most common cause of sickness and death.
 
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