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Sure, nature...it's laws...those would be things I consider "undesigned".
I don't know how familiar you are with intelligent design...but generally speaking, it's proponents claim that the entire universe and everything in it is designed.
Over the years, I've heard a lot of proponents of intelligent design argue that certain aspects of reality point to the idea that an entity of extreme intelligence (god) created the entire universe and everything in it...from the biggest galaxy, to the smallest rock...and all life everywhere.
My question to anyone holding such a belief would be...what distinguishes design from un-designed? For the purposes of this thread...I'll simply use the term "natural" for un-designed.
If all of reality is designed...how does one recognize design and distinguish it from that which is simply natural? What would natural even mean in such a universe?
Looking forward to answers.
That's not my premise...that's my belief...and it's not the question in the OP.
You seem to think that everything is designed, you should be able to answer the question...
What distinguishes design from non-design? If everything is designed...then what is the criteria for detecting design? How would you tell it apart from something not designed?
Without a way to determine if something is designed or not...then the entire claim that "everything is designed" falls apart.
Over the years, I've heard a lot of proponents of intelligent design argue that certain aspects of reality point to the idea that an entity of extreme intelligence (god) created the entire universe and everything in it...from the biggest galaxy, to the smallest rock...and all life everywhere.
My question to anyone holding such a belief would be...what distinguishes design from un-designed? For the purposes of this thread...I'll simply use the term "natural" for un-designed.
If all of reality is designed...how does one recognize design and distinguish it from that which is simply natural? What would natural even mean in such a universe?
Looking forward to answers.
The answer to how we determine if something is designed or not is by looking at the thing in question and viewing the clear evidence of design.
Now...please list the natural forces that determine that matter will come alive.
List these and we will know if rocks will ever live. Please do list them all.
1.
2.
3.
4.
To your question:
I pondered space and the lack of life.
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Indeed. If "science" can't prove its case, credit will go to the Great Pumpkin. Or, pixies. How about one of those "gods"? Do we have evidence for any of those?Thank you for illustrating my example.
So are there natural forces that would cause a tree to fall? Ever?
If so please list these forces and we can determine if the tree will ever fall.
Now...please list the forces that determine that matter will come alive.
List these and we will know if rocks will ever live. List them all.
motion forces
thermal
electrical
physical
meta-physical
etc.
Can I ask - is it unreasonable to consider that nature designed it's own laws - or how did those laws originate?
Whilst I do believe that God is The Creator ..... I am reluctant to confine my understanding to one particular label, e.g. Creationism, Intelligent Design etc. For many years I was a YEC and was anti - science ....... but it was actually science that put an end to my YEC stance!
I have often been one of those who delve into this subject, and I have tried many times to convey my understanding. For me 'nature' or the 'natural relm', is governed by laws and/or constructs that make them 'be'. I have found many focus on an object, or a force itself as the means of scientific analysis. Empirical data: drop an apple and you prove to yourself the existence of what is termed as gravity, and that pretty much it. But to me, what are the constraints of gravity and how did it come to be? I know that gravity is the force that attracts a body toward the center of the earth, or toward any other physical body having mass. But how did this law come to be? Which made me ask the question: what force constrains the laws of physics? I could not accept the notion that gravity, for example, is a sentient entity. Nor could I accept that gravity was a learned trait, or a force that had to learn it's own properties by morphing, or evolving into it's current state. Which lead me to believe in intelligent design. For me, even if all exsitance was created by a big bang, it still dose not account for the very laws of physics that put the expansion in motion in the first place. According to the theories of physics, if we were to look at the Universe one second after the Big Bang, what we would see is a 10-billion degree sea of neutrons, protons, electrons, anti-electrons (positrons), photons, and neutrinos. Then, as time went on, we would see the Universe cool, the neutrons either decaying into protons and electrons or combining with protons to make deuterium. So how did the matter even know how to react in that way? What set the laws in motion? Also the big bang theory is a conglomeration of Albert Einstein's general theory of relativity along with standard theories of fundamental particles. All of which (by the scientific model) was discovered some 14 billion years after the fact.Over the years, I've heard a lot of proponents of intelligent design argue that certain aspects of reality point to the idea that an entity of extreme intelligence (god) created the entire universe and everything in it...from the biggest galaxy, to the smallest rock...and all life everywhere.
My question to anyone holding such a belief would be...what distinguishes design from un-designed? For the purposes of this thread...I'll simply use the term "natural" for un-designed.
If all of reality is designed...how does one recognize design and distinguish it from that which is simply natural? What would natural even mean in such a universe?
Looking forward to answers.
The argument falls apart here because this is the fallacy of special pleading.
"Nature designed it's own laws"...
You're looking at the laws of physics like someone had to write them to tell matter how to interact. Those laws are just descriptions of how matter interacts...they describe, they don't prescribe.
Whilst I do believe that God is The Creator ..... I am reluctant to confine my understanding to one particular label, e.g. Creationism, Intelligent Design etc. For many years I was a YEC and was anti - science ....... but it was actually science that put an end to my YEC stance!
I don't think so. There must be a primary cause that made everything else.
That is not special pleading but simple fact.
Your premis that "nature" is the same as "undesign" is a flawed premis if all reality is designed by God. There simply is no reason to think anything is undesigned except for God Himself.
Indeed. If "science" can't prove its case, credit will go to the Great Pumpkin. Or, pixies. How about one of those "gods"? Do we have evidence for any of those?
I honestly have no idea what you're talking about...
Are you asking me about possible silicon based life forms? What does this have to do with design?
Wonderful...now we're getting somewhere...
What is the "clear evidence of design"?