On DNA percent differences between taxa and YEC timelines

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YES it depends on context. How often do I have to agree with you before you explain why you say so?

Evolution of the species depends on survival of the fittest. I don't care whether that means some day humanity will be stupider but stronger. This conversation is not about "superior", but, "from there to here".
Then I don't understand what your issue is.

We've established that there are a significant number of mutations naturally in the population...
We've agreed that a small percentage of them are likely to become fixed in the population...

The reasonable conclusion seems to be that it's just a matter of time for them to build up to the point that two separated populations would be clearly different species.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Then I don't understand what your issue is.

We've established that there are a significant number of mutations naturally in the population...
We've agreed that a small percentage of them are likely to become fixed in the population...

The reasonable conclusion seems to be that it's just a matter of time for them to build up to the point that two separated populations would be clearly different species.
Obviously. So the question is: how much time?

If the answer to that depends on how much time it [apparently] took, rather than whether it makes sense that it could have happened that quickly, then that roadblock, to me believing in the kind of evolution people are claiming to be established fact, remains. (Lol, I put the last two commas there to avoid confusion in a conversation about fossils, "established fact remains". Let's hope established fact doesn't become fossilized too!)
 
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Shemjaza

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Obviously. So the question is: how much time?

If the answer to that depends on how much time it [apparently] took, rather than whether it makes sense that it could have happened that quickly, then that roadblock, to me believing in the kind of evolution people are claiming to be established fact, remains. (Lol, I put the last two commas there to avoid confusion in a conversation about fossils, "established fact remains". Let's hope established fact doesn't become fossilized too!)
Didn't we just go over a napkin calculation that gave us roughly the order of magnitude of time as concluded by the experts?

(I'm pretty sure your roadblock is your absolute disagreement with the conclusion, not the fine details of mechanisms.)
 
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Mark Quayle

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Didn't we just go over a napkin calculation that gave us roughly the order of magnitude of time as concluded by the experts?

(I'm pretty sure your roadblock is your absolute disagreement with the conclusion, not the fine details of mechanisms.)
Yes, but nothing to show how much of that contributed to survival/propagation of any forms that continued on to further forms. Worse than vague —if I was to take that calculation on face value, ignoring that it only was about mutations of any use, it would be very misleading, no?
 
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Shemjaza

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Yes, but nothing to show how much of that contributed to survival/propagation of any forms that continued on to further forms. Worse than vague —if I was to take that calculation on face value, ignoring that it only was about mutations of any use, it would be very misleading, no?
No... I'd have thought that "of any use" and "contributed to survival/propagation" were synonymous.
 
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Mark Quayle

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No... I'd have thought that "of any use" and "contributed to survival/propagation" were synonymous.
My bad, I wasn't clear. I meant, "of any use of the term, 'mutation' ". Not 'useful for survival/propagation'.
 
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Shemjaza

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My bad, I wasn't clear. I meant, "of any use of the term, 'mutation' ". Not 'useful for survival/propagation'.
I think we might be talking across each other somehow.

I'm not sure where the conflict is occurring.

I'm pretty sure the following aren't in dispute:
Mutations occur and add variation to genetics
Variations in genetics can alter traits of a life form
Altered traits in a life form may increase or decrease its chances of successfully reproducing


What I don't understand is why there's an issues with accepting that the evidenced mechanism for adding variation (even with a low probability that any particular variation is advantageous) is responsible for the variations we see in nature?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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For those lacking a crystal ball, such
categorizing is essentially impossible
Yes, except for extreme cases; but mainly in hindsight, e.g. when a mutation has spread relatively rapidly through the population or has not spread through the population.
 
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Estrid

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Yes, except for extreme cases; but mainly in hindsight, e.g. when a mutation has spread relatively rapidly through the population or has not spread through the population.

Enlarging on what I suggested with the word "essentially".
 
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Estrid

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I think we might be talking across each other somehow.

I'm not sure where the conflict is occurring.

I'm pretty sure the following aren't in dispute:
Mutations occur and add variation to genetics
Variations in genetics can alter traits of a life form
Altered traits in a life form may increase or decrease its chances of successfully reproducing


What I don't understand is why there's an issues with accepting that the evidenced mechanism for adding variation (even with a low probability that any particular variation is advantageous) is responsible for the variations we see in nature?

It's not a dispute as such, but rather a commitment to
intellectual dishonesty
 
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loveofourlord

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where do you get the four to eight percent difference between humans and chimps? The standard accepted difference is about 1.2% difference.

Comparing Chimp, Bonobo and Human DNA | AMNH

It really depends on what you count as a mutation or change, Is:
thequickbrownfox becoming
thequicbrownfox 1 mutation or 8 or 9? and so on. Is it the insert/deletions or the total change to the gene, also are you counting junk DNA or coding DNA and other things.
 
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chevyontheriver

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It really depends on what you count as a mutation or change, Is:
thequickbrownfox becoming
thequicbrownfox 1 mutation or 8 or 9? and so on. Is it the insert/deletions or the total change to the gene, also are you counting junk DNA or coding DNA and other things.
Of course it is one mutation. But people can have ‘fun with math’ if they want to. Just like it is easy to lie with statistics. Essentially we end up destroying communication if we persist in that kind of thing.
 
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loveofourlord

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Of course it is one mutation. But people can have ‘fun with math’ if they want to. Just like it is easy to lie with statistics. Essentially we end up destroying communication if we persist in that kind of thing.

remember a protein is made of 3 letter sequences, so 1 deletion, changes every single protein in the sequence, so 1 mutation causes a massive change, that's why it's not that simple. Different studies have different criteria and what they are focusing on.
 
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chevyontheriver

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remember a protein is made of 3 letter sequences, so 1 deletion, changes every single protein in the sequence, so 1 mutation causes a massive change, that's why it's not that simple. Different studies have different criteria and what they are focusing on.
Yes, a deletion (or insertion) mutation changes everything downstream and may well be fatal if the encoded protein is vital. But it's still one mutational change no matter how massive the effect.

There are only a half dozen or so mutations that could turn a chicken into an apparent dinosaur. Changes in leg and beak and not much more and they would look and perhaps even act like miniature velociraptors.
 
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tas8831

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Yes, but nothing to show how much of that contributed to survival/propagation of any forms that continued on to further forms.
Irrelevant.
When creationists claim 'X-% difference is too much for evolution to account for', they do not specify that they are referring to adaptive/relevant mutation, just the total percentage.
Worse than vague —if I was to take that calculation on face value, ignoring that it only was about mutations of any use, it would be very misleading, no?
Then your beef is with your fellow creationsts.

When creationists specify that some number of beneficial mutations is too few (this is the tactic that people like ReMine and Sanford use), their arguments fail as well.
For such arguments are always based on a simple-minded belief that there must be some huge number of such mutations to account for any kind of evolution. Especially for human evolution, because we are so special.
Creationists will also often start out trying to argue about the beneficial mutation issue, but then they conflate those mutations with all mutations.
Because they don't know any better. Or maybe they do, but are more concerned with winning that with being honest.
Here, for example, is Jeff Tomkins of the ICR, from 2013:


Jeffrey Tomkins, Institute for Creation Research
Proposal
A preliminary study was performed by Tomkins comparing 40,000 chimpanzee genomic sequences against the human genome which indicated that reported levels of human-chimp DNA similarity were significantly lower than commonly reported. The present, follow-up study was then completed in which chimp chromosomes were sliced into new individual query files of varying string lengths and queried against their human chromosome homolog. This allowed for comparisons to be optimized irrespective of the linear order of genes and sequence features. The definition of similarity was the amount (percent) of optimally aligned chimp DNA. For the chimp autosomes, the amount of optimally aligned DNA sequence provided similarities between 66 and 76 percent, depending on the chromosome. Only 69 percent of the chimpanzee X chromosome was similar to human and only 43 percent of the Y chromosome. Genome-wide, only 70% of the chimpanzee DNA was similar to human under the most optimal alignment conditions. While, chimpanzees and humans share many localized protein-coding regions of high similarity, the overall extreme discontinuity between the two genomes defies evolutionary time-scales and dogmatic presuppositions about a common ancestor.​

He was once a competent geneticist, but then he went to work a creationist propaganda mill. Note that his SOLE argument is re: the % figures.
And he is a "professional."
I will not mention that the means by which he came to these lower-than usual numbers (which he was initially inspired to do when Todd Wood reported a 90-ish% similarity at a creationist meeting using a non-buggy version of BLASTn) was designed TO GET lower numbers to bolster his claim. I will not mention that he wrote a script that told a buggy version of BLASTn to look for and compare bits of DNA 10 (as well as other lengths, but all very short) nucleotides in length, and to consider a single base difference to return a similarity of 0 (as he explained in his full publication on this through ICR). I will not bother to mention that Tomkins later, unable to keep denying that he had used a buggy version of BLASTn, tried to rescue his claim, still using small segments of DNA rather than just a straight site-by-site analysis, and came up with 88%. I will also not mention that even 88% was considered by Tomkins to be 'too little' to support evolution, with no mention of adaptation or fitness or beneficial mutations.
I will definitely not mention that he refuses to run his comparisons on pairs of taxa that creationists claim are descendants of a created kind, for what should be obvious reasons.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Irrelevant.
When creationists claim 'X-% difference is too much for evolution to account for', they do not specify that they are referring to adaptive/relevant mutation, just the total percentage.

Then your beef is with your fellow creationsts.

When creationists specify that some number of beneficial mutations is too few (this is the tactic that people like ReMine and Sanford use), their arguments fail as well.
For such arguments are always based on a simple-minded belief that there must be some huge number of such mutations to account for any kind of evolution. Especially for human evolution, because we are so special.
Creationists will also often start out trying to argue about the beneficial mutation issue, but then they conflate those mutations with all mutations.
Because they don't know any better. Or maybe they do, but are more concerned with winning that with being honest.
Here, for example, is Jeff Tomkins of the ICR, from 2013:


Jeffrey Tomkins, Institute for Creation Research
Proposal
A preliminary study was performed by Tomkins comparing 40,000 chimpanzee genomic sequences against the human genome which indicated that reported levels of human-chimp DNA similarity were significantly lower than commonly reported. The present, follow-up study was then completed in which chimp chromosomes were sliced into new individual query files of varying string lengths and queried against their human chromosome homolog. This allowed for comparisons to be optimized irrespective of the linear order of genes and sequence features. The definition of similarity was the amount (percent) of optimally aligned chimp DNA. For the chimp autosomes, the amount of optimally aligned DNA sequence provided similarities between 66 and 76 percent, depending on the chromosome. Only 69 percent of the chimpanzee X chromosome was similar to human and only 43 percent of the Y chromosome. Genome-wide, only 70% of the chimpanzee DNA was similar to human under the most optimal alignment conditions. While, chimpanzees and humans share many localized protein-coding regions of high similarity, the overall extreme discontinuity between the two genomes defies evolutionary time-scales and dogmatic presuppositions about a common ancestor.​

He was once a competent geneticist, but then he went to work a creationist propaganda mill. Note that his SOLE argument is re: the % figures.
And he is a "professional."
I will not mention that the means by which he came to these lower-than usual numbers (which he was initially inspired to do when Todd Wood reported a 90-ish% similarity at a creationist meeting using a non-buggy version of BLASTn) was designed TO GET lower numbers to bolster his claim. I will not mention that he wrote a script that told a buggy version of BLASTn to look for and compare bits of DNA 10 nucleotides in length, and to consider a single base difference to return a similarity of 0 (as he explained in his full publication on this through ICR). I will not bother to mention that Tomkins later, unable to keep denying that he had used a buggy version of BLASTn, tried to rescue his claim, still using small segments of DNA rather than just a straight site-by-site analysis, and came up with 88%. I will also not mention that even 88% was considered by Tomkins to be 'too little' to support evolution, with no mention on adaptation or fitness or beneficial mutations.
I will definitely not mention that he refuses to run his comparisons on pairs of taxa that creationists claim are descendants of a created kind, for what should be obvious reasons.
At this point I am not trying to defend the YEC arguments. I am trying to find out if my own are invalid. If I must understand their arguments to understand my own well enough, it would seem to validate theirs, (to some degree, anyway). But I don't understand theirs, so I give up. Things remain the same. I don't have time to pursue YEC and Theory of Evolution to the point of armchair expert. But it seems I can't be convinced of Evolution because (so far) I can't just take the word of others, whether accurate or not on the details, to be all there is to it. My objections still remain. Sorry. And thanks for your efforts.
 
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tas8831

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I don't have time to pursue YEC and Theory of Evolution to the point of armchair expert. But it seems I can't be convinced of Evolution because (so far) I can't just take the word of others, whether accurate or not on the details, to be all there is to it. My objections still remain. Sorry. And thanks for your efforts.
Ok, be well.
 
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tas8831

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If I was particularly hopeful of being convinced, I might do so. But I'm not,
So when you comment, you are just being disingenuous. Got it.
just as most atheists have no use for arguments for first-cause-with-intent. Dismissed with a flick of the wrist.
You mistake and conflate your rationale with that of others. The "first-cause-with-intent" claim suffers from at least 2 major problems:

1. It is IRRELEVANT to evolution, since evolution is not about the origin of the universe
2. It is non-parsimonious (as it relies on at least one evidence-free assumption)

Darwinian Evolutionary theory is not my claim. I don't need to prove it wrong.
Yeah. Apparently, you don't even need to try to understand it.
 
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tas8831

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From what I understand, there were billions, maybe trillions or more, of beneficial mutations necessary to reach the present state of evolution.
Sounds like big numbers are too much for you to grasp.

Check this out - it was estimated in the 1980s that a typical cell - just any old cell - in the body uses between 50 and 150 moles of ATP each day.

1 mole = ~6x10^23 particles, or:

600,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules of ATP.

x 150 = 90000000000000000000000000 ATPs

Per day.

WOW. That must mean that cells don't exist! I mean, look at that HUGE number!!!
 
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