Omnscience AND freewill???

[Grega]

I think that the Scriptures are fairly clear that God is omniscient and has a plan for us. And that we can choose to reject his will for us. The two are indeed contradictory, if we were speaking of a human. But God, by definition, is not, and has attributes we cannot explain or understand (though we can certainly try).
Yes the scriptures may say many things...I just don't believe them. When I put some of the statements under test...they produce contradictions

For all I know, God is like the Kwisatz Haderach from Herbert's "Dune" books, and can see all possible futures and pasts. Unlike him, God can see the best plan for each person. I don't know. The Bible, which tells us a great deal about God's attributes, does not go into the "how" aspects of this.

I also think of God as outside of the time stream. It's a human rationalization, but how else does one understand the many times the Bible explains God's relationship to time as being intimately connected to both what we call the past and what we call the future? What God sees when he looks at my timeline could be the "past" to him, even though I have not done it yet. Again, I have no idea.

But the focus for me is not how God knows this stuff, but rather the hope I have because he knows it. God HAS a plan... a reason for my specific existence... just as he ahs a plan for yours. I can veer from that path; I can even deny him completely. But that doesn't change the fact that he has a plan, and that he sees both my past and my future (or many futures). And that wherever I am, he is with me and loves me.

It's kinda like when people ask me when I was saved. I answer, "Oh, about two thousand years ago on a cross in Jerusalem". Time isn't the point. God's love is. The whole Bible is a story of God reconciling us to himself... the rest is interesting, but not central.

I think that the Scriptures are fairly clear that God is omniscient and has a plan for us. And that we can choose to reject his will for us. The two are indeed contradictory, if we were speaking of a human. But God, by definition, is not, and has attributes we cannot explain or understand (though we can certainly try).
Yes the scriptures may say many things...I just don't believe them. When I put some of the statements under test...they produce contradictions.
Even if we can't understand all of your god's attributes, for the ones that have been described then for them to be true they must not be inconsistent

For all I know, God is like the Kwisatz Haderach from Herbert's "Dune" books, and can see all possible futures and pasts. Unlike him, God can see the best plan for each person. I don't know. The Bible, which tells us a great deal about God's attributes, does not go into the "how" aspects of this.
But even if every permutation of any conceivable collection of events is played out in infinitely many timelines, 'I', Greg[sub]1[/sub], exist in only one of them.
Your god can know all things it is possible for me to do given these other timelines and I say this is fine...but the moment you say your god knows what Greg[sub]1[/sub] actually does then from the point where I live out my existence on this timeline I have no choice but to do exactly what your god sees me do...and since your god can see both the beginning and the end of this timeline simultaneously, then as he creates our universe...he creates the sequence of events that will be played out on this timeline and sees all events on this timeline simultaneously...there can be no variance in this sequence of events since your god sees everything simultaneously.

I also think of God as outside of the time stream. It's a human rationalization, but how else does one understand the many times the Bible explains God's relationship to time as being intimately connected to both what we call the past and what we call the future? What God sees when he looks at my timeline could be the "past" to him, even though I have not done it yet. Again, I have no idea.
No matter how one chooses to wriggle, omniscience implies your god knows precisely what I do at any point on any and all points on a particular timeline...it doesn't matter here how he knows it, it doesn't even matter if he isn't timeless and resides in n-dimensional time free to zip between temporal dimensions willy-nilly (with all the paradoxes that come with this formulation)...all that is important is that given he knows all actions I perform, and he created a universe whereby I would perform them, I necessarily have to perform them actions from the point on this timeline where I exist...otherwise what he sees and knows I will do at all points on this timeline, and then what I actually do are different...a contradiction

But the focus for me is not how God knows this stuff, but rather the hope I have because he knows it. God HAS a plan... a reason for my specific existence... just as he ahs a plan for yours. I can veer from that path; I can even deny him completely. But that doesn't change the fact that he has a plan, and that he sees both my past and my future (or many futures). And that wherever I am, he is with me and loves me
If your god does have a plan...then so long as he doesn't know what actions I will perform I will run with your assertion we have free-will...otherwise repeat what I've said above

It's kinda like when people ask me when I was saved. I answer, "Oh, about two thousand years ago on a cross in Jerusalem". Time isn't the point. God's love is. The whole Bible is a story of God reconciling us to himself... the rest is interesting, but not central.
I have yet to determine that this 'story' is feasible

 

[Grega]

Right, but if the creator of Star Wars were able to give his characters free wills... A human cannot create a will, or even a being to possess a will. But if a God could create a free will at a point in time, and let it go on its own from there, the effect could be the same as watching a movie, or maybe like a panoramic mural.




I don’t understand - it sounds like you’re saying "can I do two different things at once?" Of course not. But why does His seeing you do something mean that you weren’t free to do otherwise?



Not if He intentionally allowed for events to be outside the realm of His control. Or you could say nothing is outside His control, but He simply does not exercise control.



Yes, right, we have free will by extraordinary divine decree.



Just reverse that, and we have the answer – What I choose must determine my God’s knowledge.



I could choose to do something other, but then that other is what He sees. Before I decide upon an action, there may be an infinite number of different choices available to me, but after I've acted, there is only one action - the action I took. And that's what God sees. He sees it a billion years before I acted, and a billion years after; it just happens to occupy one point on my timeline; that doesn't mean I wasn't free to make it; it doesn't mean I couldn't have done a different action.



When you put it that way, yes, that is extremely difficult to understand. We can’t explain it, but remember that He is timeless, and the things He created (the universe and everything in it) are not. So if He willed it to be so, there could possibly be a separation of the two natures - His omniscient, timeless nature, and the time-sequence-dependent nature of the cosmos.

But I don’t know. Really it only takes a little humility to admit that things could certainly be possible, but which our human minds can’t logic out. A few generations ago no one could conceive of a black hole which seemed at first to contradict or suspend known physical laws. So it’s not at all a cop-out to say “With God all things are possible”. It seems arrogant, short-sighted and “human-centric” to think that just because right now we can’t understand how something is possible, means that it’s impossible. I think any good science fiction author would say the same.

Also, I’d refer back to “synger’s” good answer above.



Christians believe that at a certain point in the human timeline, 2,000 years ago, God willingly entered the timeline.

Right, but if the creator of Star Wars were able to give his characters free wills... A human cannot create a will, or even a being to possess a will. But if a God could create a free will at a point in time, and let it go on its own from there, the effect could be the same as watching a movie, or maybe like a panoramic mural.
No...because then this implies that there is a timeline for which your god sees all events simultaneously, meanwhile, he simultaneously doesn't know what we are going to do when he sees forwards from this point in this timeline where he gave us free will...you're wriggling further into quicksand my friend.

I don’t understand - it sounds like you’re saying "can I do two different things at once?" Of course not. But why does His seeing you do something mean that you weren’t free to do otherwise?
Because if your god simultaneously creates a universe (whereby he can see all events on the timeline) and sees I do X...then at some point on this timeline I will be created...and I will do X!...it doesn't matter if I think I have a choice in the matter from my own perspective, I'm doing X whether you like it or not!

Not if He intentionally allowed for events to be outside the realm of His control. Or you could say nothing is outside His control, but He simply does not exercise control.
By the proposition that your god sees the beginning, end, and all points inbetween simultaneously this timeline is invariant...his control or lack of it is of no importance

Just reverse that, and we have the answer – What I choose must determine my God’s knowledge.
This implies what your god sees is contingent upon what you do; for this to be true then as your god focuses on this timeline at a point before your creation (whilst he somehow focuses on every other point...simultaneously) he would not know what you are going to do (since your god's knowledge of what you do is contingent upon you actually doing something first), this implies that your god is not omniscient as he focuses on this point...but your god is timeless so he is either always omniscient or always not omniscient!
If he is always omniscient then he can not be not omniscient when he focuses on a timeline point before your creation. Therefore he must know what you do at this point...therefore his knowledge is not dependent upon you first doing something!

I could choose to do something other, but then that other is what He sees. Before I decide upon an action, there may be an infinite number of different choices available to me, but after I've acted, there is only one action - the action I took. And that's what God sees. He sees it a billion years before I acted, and a billion years after; it just happens to occupy one point on my timeline; that doesn't mean I wasn't free to make it; it doesn't mean I couldn't have done a different action.
No you can't!...your god sees your timeline before your creation on it, and he knows precisely what you will do at the point you are created...you will do exactly as he expects you to do...as you live out your existence you will operate under the 'illusion' of freewill

When you put it that way, yes, that is extremely difficult to understand. We can’t explain it, but remember that He is timeless, and the things He created (the universe and everything in it) are not. So if He willed it to be so, there could possibly be a separation of the two natures - His omniscient, timeless nature, and the time-sequence-dependent nature of the cosmos.
We already have this situation by assumption. Your god is timeless, our timeline isn't....you can't explain it because it is nonsensical

But I don’t know. Really it only takes a little humility to admit that things could certainly be possible, but which our human minds can’t logic out. A few generations ago no one could conceive of a black hole which seemed at first to contradict or suspend known physical laws. So it’s not at all a cop-out to say “With God all things are possible”. It seems arrogant, short-sighted and “human-centric” to think that just because right now we can’t understand how something is possible, means that it’s impossible. I think any good science fiction author would say the same
Here you're talking about physical laws...If someone tells me that the world was made of custard before humans existed then this does not defy logic, it defies only the physical laws we believe to be true... contradictions cannot be handwaved away quite so easily as the proposition that physical laws are subject to change at your gods will.

Also, I’d refer back to “synger’s” good answer above.
I have

 

[Grega]

Here is where I have the problem. I think there are two ways of looking at this. Ether you are saying 1) God knew what we were going to do before we did it, so we didn't have a choice in the matter. or 2) God created a universe in which everything is determined by physical laws, therefore there is only one way events could ever go, regardless of Gods omniscience. To me (2) is a better arguement then (1).

Problems with (1): ''Before you were created God knew everything that you would ever do, so you could never do anything different from this.'' The first problem with this, I think, is the word before. God is above and beyond time and so in a way for God there is no before for Him. When He knows that you will do something before you do it, it is not because He has foreknowledge, it is because He is there as you do it and in the past at the same time. He can look down from beyond time and see action X happening, and because He is beyond time He knows this is every other time. My point is that it is no different from you seeing someone doing X. If you go into the future in a time machine, change nothing but see action X, then go back in time. Did you make action X happen? No, you just saw the free act of that person, and that person is not now forced to do that action because you know it WILL happen, but he will choose it freely regardless of your knowing. I think this is true of God also. You don't act because God knows, He knows because you act. I think that is the main point.

Problems with (2): I don't believe we are predetermined by the laws of physics and the conditions at the start of the world. I believe we can really choose to do one thing rather than another and it isn't just the consequence particles hitting other particles. Maybe this is down to the 'soul' giving consciousness outside of the physical world, but I just believe this. I find some 'Near-Death Experiences' to be good evidence for consciousness beyond the body.

If it ws (2) you ment then fair enough, but I don't think that there is a good reason to believe (1).

Problems with (1): ''Before you were created God knew everything that you would ever do, so you could never do anything different from this.'' The first problem with this, I think, is the word before. God is above and beyond time and so in a way for God there is no before for Him. When He knows that you will do something before you do it, it is not because He has foreknowledge, it is because He is there as you do it and in the past at the same time. He can look down from beyond time and see action X happening, and because He is beyond time He knows this is every other time. My point is that it is no different from you seeing someone doing X. If you go into the future in a time machine, change nothing but see action X, then go back in time. Did you make action X happen? No, you just saw the free act of that person, and that person is not now forced to do that action because you know it WILL happen, but he will choose it freely regardless of your knowing. I think this is true of God also. You don't act because God knows, He knows because you act. I think that is the main point.
H.G. Wells and his time travel garbage has a lot to answer for!

You are trying to draw the analogy between yourself travelling through time in a universe you didn't create, without the omniscience to see every conceivable sub-division of this timeline in perfectly clear detail at both the beginning and the end of this timeline simultaneously due to existing in a timeless state...and an omnipotent god being able to do all the things above you can't!!!
The analogy fails!

Problems with (2): I don't believe we are predetermined by the laws of physics and the conditions at the start of the world. I believe we can really choose to do one thing rather than another and it isn't just the consequence particles hitting other particles. Maybe this is down to the 'soul' giving consciousness outside of the physical world, but I just believe this. I find some 'Near-Death Experiences' to be good evidence for consciousness beyond the body.
Not my argument

 

[solarwave]

The main point of it was to explain that God is just watching what we do (in a way), He doesn't actually make the person do what they do.

 

[Grega]

The main point of it was to explain that God is just watching what we do (in a way), He doesn't actually make the person do what they do.

Of course he does!...he created the universe, and he knows all events that will occur in this universe at its point of creation...he knows this because he is timeless and sees all things simultaneously.
He knows that there is a point on this timeline where I will exist...and he knows I will do precisely as he sees me do from this point forwards. The only freewill I have is the illusion of it.

 

[solarwave]

I only saw 'He knows', not a 'He made me do it' in that post. Someone knowing something will happen doesn't mean they caused it to happen. God my the world yes, and then God sees the actions we freely choose to do. The only reason He knows it will happen is because that is what we will willingly choose to do, not the other way round.

 

[Grega]

I only saw 'He knows', not a 'He made me do it' in that post. Someone knowing something will happen doesn't mean they caused it to happen. God my the world yes, and then God sees the actions we freely choose to do. The only reason He knows it will happen is because that is what we will willingly choose to do, not the other way round.

Let me put it another way...your timeless, all knowing, all seeing god knows what you are going to do if he creates a universe with corresponding timeline where at some point you'd exist in it...and then he simultaneously creates this universe for you to do it in!

 

[Chesterton]

No...because then this implies that there is a timeline for which your god sees all events simultaneously, meanwhile, he simultaneously doesn't know what we are going to do when he sees forwards from this point in this timeline where he gave us free will...you're wriggling further into quicksand my friend.

If I’m wriggling further, at least I’m moving - you’re going nowhere. After many back-and-forths between you, I and others, you’re stating the same unsupported assertion, repeating the same non-sequitur you offered on the first page:

…your god sees your timeline before your creation on it, and he knows precisely what you will do at the point you are created...you will do exactly as he expects you to do...as you live out your existence you will operate under the 'illusion' of freewill

These are the verbs you used above which we can agree on, the ones which omniscience implies – “sees”, “knows”, “expects” – but you don’t provide any support for your idea that these verbs have to imply the verb “causes”.

By the proposition that your god sees the beginning, end, and all points inbetween simultaneously this timeline is invariant...his control or lack of it is of no importance

His control is of no importance? That’s exactly what we’re discussing here.

We already have this situation by assumption. Your god is timeless, our timeline isn't....you can't explain it because it is nonsensical

Here you're talking about physical laws...If someone tells me that the world was made of custard before humans existed then this does not defy logic, it defies only the physical laws we believe to be true... contradictions cannot be handwaved away quite so easily as the proposition that physical laws are subject to change at your gods will.

I’m not waving away a (seeming) contradiction by simply keeping an open mind and saying it may not be a contradiction. All I’m saying is that I, we humans, don’t know and understand everything there is about reality. I’m not evading anything; I think it’s a humble, honest and reasonable position to hold. On the other hand, I could accuse you of narrow-mindedness or small-mindedness in extravagantly claiming that you are somehow able to know what can and must be a contradiction according to ultimate reality.

 

[Grega]

If I’m wriggling further, at least I’m moving - you’re going nowhere. After many back-and-forths between you, I and others, you’re stating the same unsupported assertion, repeating the same non-sequitur you offered on the first page:



These are the verbs you used above which we can agree on, the ones which omniscience implies – “sees”, “knows”, “expects” – but you don’t provide any support for your idea that these verbs have to imply the verb “causes”.



His control is of no importance? That’s exactly what we’re discussing here.





I’m not waving away a (seeming) contradiction by simply keeping an open mind and saying it may not be a contradiction. All I’m saying is that I, we humans, don’t know and understand everything there is about reality. I’m not evading anything; I think it’s a humble, honest and reasonable position to hold. On the other hand, I could accuse you of narrow-mindedness or small-mindedness in extravagantly claiming that you are somehow able to know what can and must be a contradiction according to ultimate reality.

If I’m wriggling further, at least I’m moving - you’re going nowhere. After many back-and-forths between you, I and others, you’re stating the same unsupported assertion, repeating the same non-sequitur you offered on the first page:
Please then, tell me in detail what doesn't follow for greater philosphers than me or you have struggled over this problem through the centuries and no valid resolution on the theists side exists...btw, moving away from a goal isn't better than not moving

These are the verbs you used above which we can agree on, the ones which omniscience implies – “sees”, “knows”, “expects” – but you don’t provide any support for your idea that these verbs have to imply the verb “causes”.
"Cause" is implied by the fact that your god caused the universe to exist where I would do what he sees!...I'll throw back at you my response to solarwave:
Let me put it another way...your timeless, all knowing, all seeing god knows what you are going to do if he creates a universe with corresponding timeline where at some point you'd exist in it...and then he simultaneously creates this universe for you to do it in!

His control is of no importance? That’s exactly what we’re discussing here.
Your formulation of his voluntary lack of control has no relevance...once he creates the universe or decides he will create such a universe his omniscience allows him to know everything about it...furthermore this all happens simultaneously...so if he ever decides to at some point cede comtrol, then by the fact he is timelesss, and knows/does all things simultaneously he both has control and has no control in the same instance!!!

I’m not waving away a (seeming) contradiction by simply keeping an open mind and saying it may not be a contradiction. All I’m saying is that I, we humans, don’t know and understand everything there is about reality. I’m not evading anything; I think it’s a humble, honest and reasonable position to hold. On the other hand, I could accuse you of narrow-mindedness or small-mindedness in extravagantly claiming that you are somehow able to know what can and must be a contradiction according to ultimate reality.
My honest position is that I don't know if a god exists or not...and I do not know what properties it does or doesn't have either. I expect it not to contradict itself though...your formulation of god does contradict itself!

 

[Chesterton]

"Cause" is implied by the fact that your god caused the universe to exist where I would do what he sees!

Let me put it another way...your timeless, all knowing, all seeing god knows what you are going to do if he creates a universe with corresponding timeline where at some point you'd exist in it...and then he simultaneously creates this universe for you to do it in!

You’re bringing into this something like a deterministic view of the Big Bang, which by itself would not allow for free will, and you're excluding divine perogative. We believe God created free will within this universe, so it is a separate thing (supernatural, you could say. I believe many things have a similar appearance of being that kind of supernatural, such as human reason, human love, the idea that we can infer and perceive truth, but that’s for another thread).

At the moment of creation, or before creation, God could have known what atoms would do. He could have known the content and shape of the Andromeda galaxy which would come to be. But a human soul, a human will, is not made of atoms.

Scripture says God knows the beginning from the end. Christ says He is the Alpha and the Omega. Remember God is eternal, so there is no beginning or end for Him. Obviously then the idea of omniscience contained in scripture is put forth in reference to our temporal timeline. The universe, time, human history, all have a beginning and an end. This is what He knows. I’m not compelled by Christian beliefs to think that God was omniscient about this universe before He created it, especially of things He may have voluntarily ceded control over.

Your formulation of his voluntary lack of control has no relevance...once he creates the universe or decides he will create such a universe his omniscience allows him to know everything about it...

You keep repeating the thing I agree with – that God knows. And you keep insisting that “knows” necessarily is tantamount to “causes”. I don’t get how.

...so if he ever decides to at some point cede comtrol, then by the fact he is timelesss, and knows/does all things simultaneously he both has control and has no control in the same instance!!!

This deciding to cede control is what we call the creation of free wills, or a capacity for free wills to be.

My honest position is that I don't know if a god exists or not...and I do not know what properties it does or doesn't have either. I expect it not to contradict itself though...your formulation of god does contradict itself!

I don’t think the formulation (though I state it poorly) contradicts itself. If it does, you haven’t strictly proven it yet. I know you have other objections to God besides this one (I’ve seen your posts). Honestly, if I were looking to become an atheist, I would want something better to hang my hat on. I wouldn’t want to rely on the appearance that something must be an impossible contradiction when I have no possible way of knowing if it is or isn’t.

We both agree it’s a difficult idea, but please recognize the difference between a thing being inconceivable and a thing being impossible. Even in the world of mundane science, ideas which in the past would have seemed impossible have later proven not to be.

 

[Grega]

You’re bringing into this something like a deterministic view of the Big Bang, which by itself would not allow for free will, and you're excluding divine perogative. We believe God created free will within this universe, so it is a separate thing (supernatural, you could say. I believe many things have a similar appearance of being that kind of supernatural, such as human reason, human love, the idea that we can infer and perceive truth, but that’s for another thread).

At the moment of creation, or before creation, God could have known what atoms would do. He could have known the content and shape of the Andromeda galaxy which would come to be. But a human soul, a human will, is not made of atoms.

Scripture says God knows the beginning from the end. Christ says He is the Alpha and the Omega. Remember God is eternal, so there is no beginning or end for Him. Obviously then the idea of omniscience contained in scripture is put forth in reference to our temporal timeline. The universe, time, human history, all have a beginning and an end. This is what He knows. I’m not compelled by Christian beliefs to think that God was omniscient about this universe before He created it, especially of things He may have voluntarily ceded control over.



You keep repeating the thing I agree with – that God knows. And you keep insisting that “knows” necessarily is tantamount to “causes”. I don’t get how.



This deciding to cede control is what we call the creation of free wills, or a capacity for free wills to be.



I don’t think the formulation (though I state it poorly) contradicts itself. If it does, you haven’t strictly proven it yet. I know you have other objections to God besides this one (I’ve seen your posts). Honestly, if I were looking to become an atheist, I would want something better to hang my hat on. I wouldn’t want to rely on the appearance that something must be an impossible contradiction when I have no possible way of knowing if it is or isn’t.

We both agree it’s a difficult idea, but please recognize the difference between a thing being inconceivable and a thing being impossible. Even in the world of mundane science, ideas which in the past would have seemed impossible have later proven not to be.

You’re bringing into this something like a deterministic view of the Big Bang, which by itself would not allow for free will, and you're excluding divine perogative. We believe God created free will within this universe, so it is a separate thing (supernatural, you could say. I believe many things have a similar appearance of being that kind of supernatural, such as human reason, human love, the idea that we can infer and perceive truth, but that’s for another thread).
I am bringing into this a deterministic view because your formulation of god strictly implies it. The concensus of opinion is "god knows absolutely everything"...'timeless' implies "without time, ie: he sees/does/.../decides all things at once"
Your formulation of god implies that he decides to create a universe which would have us in it (doing as he sees us do), actually creates it, and does everything else he ever does simultaneously

But even if your god isn't timeless, ie: he exists in a separate temporal dimension, time[sub]G[/sub] say...then if
1) he is ALWAYS omniscient, then whenever there exists the idea that a universe shall be created, he would have already known he would have this idea...and knows precisely how this universe he has yet to create will play out, whereby upon creation of this universe we just do as he saw us do (I can now use 'saw' here btw) Therefore we have no freewill
2) he isn't ALWAYS omniscient, then aside from any other problems you'd encounter championing this view, then for any point in his time[sub]G[/sub] where he is omniscient, and can look at our timeline before our creation to see us do X...we still have to do X, and at best your god 'indirectly determined' which actions we shall be bound to perform at the point of our universe's creation...Therefore we still have no freewill!...(Here I'm not even considering the fact that our complete timeline may be viewable for all points of your god's existence on its own timeline, and in this case either your god despite his non-omniscience knows enough to be sure that I will still do X, or this timeline varies. But then in this case you can fix god's timeline at a particular point t[sub]G,0[/sub] corresponding to a timeline which contains all events that actually occured in my universe, and I still have to do precisely what your god saw me do at t[sub]G,0[/sub] as you play it out!)

At the moment of creation, or before creation, God could have known what atoms would do. He could have known the content and shape of the Andromeda galaxy which would come to be. But a human soul, a human will, is not made of atoms.
But you just focus here on the case where god knows about atoms... omniscience implies he knows everything!!!

Scripture says God knows the beginning from the end. Christ says He is the Alpha and the Omega. Remember God is eternal, so there is no beginning or end for Him. Obviously then the idea of omniscience contained in scripture is put forth in reference to our temporal timeline. The universe, time, human history, all have a beginning and an end. This is what He knows. I’m not compelled by Christian beliefs to think that God was omniscient about this universe before He created it, especially of things He may have voluntarily ceded control over.
I say that you'll be hard pressed to defend or make popular this belief.

You keep repeating the thing I agree with – that God knows. And you keep insisting that “knows” necessarily is tantamount to “causes”. I don’t get how.
Assume timeless, assume omniscient, assume creator and cause follows

This deciding to cede control is what we call the creation of free wills, or a capacity for free wills to be.
You lost me here!

I don’t think the formulation (though I state it poorly) contradicts itself. If it does, you haven’t strictly proven it yet. I know you have other objections to God besides this one (I’ve seen your posts). Honestly, if I were looking to become an atheist, I would want something better to hang my hat on. I wouldn’t want to rely on the appearance that something must be an impossible contradiction when I have no possible way of knowing if it is or isn’t.

We both agree it’s a difficult idea, but please recognize the difference between a thing being inconceivable and a thing being impossible. Even in the world of mundane science, ideas which in the past would have seemed impossible have later proven not to be.
Some of my problems can go away if you reformulate your god slightly differently...I say this one cannot though

 

[solarwave]

Let me put it another way...your timeless, all knowing, all seeing god knows what you are going to do if he creates a universe with corresponding timeline where at some point you'd exist in it...and then he simultaneously creates this universe for you to do it in!

So you assume that if you make a universe with certain conditions that physically(forgetting God for a moment) there can only ever be one course of action? If not then I still think that God does not mean no free will.

 

[Grega]

So you assume that if you make a universe with certain conditions that physically(forgetting God for a moment) there can only ever be one course of action? If not then I still think that God does not mean no free will.

I'm saying if your god knows absolutely everything, then as he conceives of a universe with me doing X at some point and then simultaneously creates this universe which has a timeline where I do X, then from my perspective living out that timeline I must do X

 

[ephraimanesti]

I'm saying if your god knows absolutely everything, then as he conceives of a universe with me doing X at some point and then simultaneously creates this universe which has a timeline where I do X, then from my perspective living out that timeline I must do X

There are no "musts" for a being with freewill. At the time the act was committed, you were completely free in what you chose to do. God just foreknew which choice you would make before you did. This in no way curtails your freedom--or your responsibility. You could have freely chosen the other option but chose not to. God was just a onlooker, not a participant in the event.

Exactly the same situation as God foreknowing the choice our forebears would make in the Garden before they were created--God's foreknowledge in no way curtailed their freedom of choice or lessened their responsibility--or its effects on us and our world.

Perhaps it is best if you stick with the "mankind are evolved animals driven by instincts which, by definition, they cannot control" scam. It's not true, of course, but it does make a little more sense than the "I must do X because God knew about it ahead of time" silliness when trying to avoid personal responsibility for choices made. (Neither one will work, of course, when it comes time to discuss your life with your Creator.)

A BROTHER/FRIEND/BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[AV1611VET]

This thread is inspired by numerous responses to another thread of mine whereby the real thrust of my question is avoided by alluding to what I feel is a contradiction...that god is omniscient AND we have freewill.

No contradiction whatsoever --- omniscience and freewill go hand-in-hand.

We have the freewill to do the right thing.

And if we don't --- He knows where we live!

 

[Grega]

There are no "musts" for a being with freewill. At the time the act was committed, you were completely free in what you chose to do. God just foreknew which choice you would make before you did. This in no way curtails your freedom--or your responsibility. You could have freely chosen the other option but chose not to. God was just a onlooker, not a participant in the event.

Exactly the same situation as God foreknowing the choice our forebears would make in the Garden before they were created--God's foreknowledge in no way curtailed their freedom of choice or lessened their responsibility--or its effects on us and our world.

Perhaps it is best if you stick with the "mankind are evolved animals driven by instincts which, by definition, they cannot control" scam. It's not true, of course, but it does make a little more sense than the "I must do X because God knew about it ahead of time" silliness when trying to avoid personal responsibility for choices made. (Neither one will work, of course, when it comes time to discuss your life with your Creator.)

A BROTHER/FRIEND/BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim

your timeless, all knowing, all seeing god knows what you are going to do if he creates a universe with corresponding timeline where at some point you'd exist in it...and he simultaneously creates this universe for you to do it in!

You are looking at this problem as though your god was a mere time-traveller going back and forward through time in his created universe who's denizens do what they do independently of his knowledge, all the birds are tweeting, and the sweet smelling flowers swaying effortlessly in the wind in this wonderful & magical mental construction of yours...but your god is not just a time-traveller!!!He is the omniscient, creator of the universe who knows precisely what you are going to do before there is even a universe for you to do it in!!!

 

[Grega]

No contradiction whatsoever --- omniscience and freewill go hand-in-hand.

We have the freewill to do the right thing.

And if we don't --- He knows where we live!

Well geez!....when you put it like that.....!

 

[ephraimanesti]

He is theomniscient, creator of the universe who knew precisely what you are going to do before there is even a universe for you to do it in!!!

YES!!! You are finally coming to an understanding of the Truth.

MAY YOU BE BLESSED!
ephraim

 

[Grega]

YES!!! You are finally coming to an understanding of the Truth.

MAY YOU BE BLESSED!
ephraim

...this is like trying to teach my brother how to manipulate fractions!!!

Thanks for your input ephraim

 

[Chesterton]

I am bringing into this a deterministic view because your formulation of god strictly implies it. The concensus of opinion is "god knows absolutely everything"...'timeless' implies "without time, ie: he sees/does/.../decides all things at once"
Your formulation of god implies that he decides to create a universe which would have us in it (doing as he sees us do), actually creates it, and does everything else he ever does simultaneously

Neither of us can understand eternity, but consider the words you’re using about God’s actions: “at once” and “simultaneously”. These are words relating to time. We both cannot help but think in terms of time, but at least I can imagine that not every mode of being has to correspond to my human temporal mode.

No one could ask you to imagine what another mode of being might be like, we’re both incapable of that. I’d only ask that you imagine that there could be another mode.

But even if your god isn't timeless, ie: he exists in a separate temporal dimension, time[sub]G[/sub] say...then if
1) he is ALWAYS omniscient, then whenever there exists the idea that a universe shall be created, he would have already known he would have this idea...and knows precisely how this universe he has yet to create will play out, whereby upon creation of this universe we just do as he saw us do (I can now use 'saw' here btw) Therefore we have no freewill
2) he isn't ALWAYS omniscient, then aside from any other problems you'd encounter championing this view, then for any point in his time[sub]G[/sub] where he is omniscient, and can look at our timeline before our creation to see us do X...we still have to do X,...

If He sees us do X in our future, it’s because we will do X. The key word is “will” and the will belong to us. He sees us do X because we have done/are doing/will do X. If we have done/are doing/will do Y, He at all times sees us doing Y.

...and at best your god 'indirectly determined' which actions we shall be bound to perform at the point of our universe's creation...Therefore we still have no freewill!

I’m completely comfortable saying he indirectly determined human actions, because “indirectly” merely implies a set or range of conditions within which we operate. As has been pointed out, God didn’t create humans capable of flight like birds, so we can’t will ourselves to fly. Likewise, I suppose God did not have to allow the serpent into the Garden of Eden, but He did, thereby allowing for a range of actions. God is not the Playwright, or the Director; He is merely the Producer of the play. But ultimately the Producer is the Chief Executive; He determines whether there will be a play; He determines when the play will cease its run. But a producer doesn’t necessarily determine every detail of the plot and dialogue.

But you just focus here on the case where god knows about atoms... omniscience implies he knows everything!!!

As I said - divine prerogative. What you said is true, unless the omniscient being creates a set of conditions (such as rational free wills) which precludes his knowing some things.

I say that you'll be hard pressed to defend or make popular this belief.

Jehovah is eternal and immortal, so what else could the words “beginning” and “end” apply to? What’s the alternative? A finite god? A god who was “born” ex nihilo and will someday die? That could be partly true of some man-made gods, but not the Judeo-Christian God.

Assume timeless, assume omniscient, assume creator and cause follows

You assume these ideas as if they were numerals in an equation. You neglect linguistic subtlety and nuance like some kind of ruthless mathematician. God is not purely math, and neither is the cosmos He created.

You lost me here!

Free = Uncontrolled. A free will is an uncontrolled will.