Omnipresence of the saints triumphant

[marciebaby]

If you are asking for the prayers and intercessions of those who have already passed away, does that imply that they are omnipresent, like God?

 

[narnia59]

If you are asking for the prayers and intercessions of those who have already passed away, does that imply that they are omnipresent, like God?

Not at all. Why would one conclude that?

 

[marciebaby]

How can they hear you, and everyone else talking to them then? I'm just honestly trying to understand.

 

[narnia59]

How can they hear you, and everyone else talking to them then? I'm just honestly trying to understand.

Well, one might start with thinking about how they can 'hear' period since they have no ears.

Isn't it a little illogical to conclude they would have the same physical limitations in terms of hearing as we do, since they are no longer confined to physical bodies?

So I would think less in terms of how they can 'hear' our prayers, and more in terms of how they can be 'aware' of our prayers. And since Scripture says they 'surround us', and we know that they are present in the New Jerusalem when we come before God in prayer, I think it is quite evident that they are aware of us.

 

[angrylittlefisherman]

How it has been explained to me is like this. The saints are Christians whose bodies have fallen asleep. They are in Heaven with our Lord, however they are not dead. In fact because they are in Heaven with Christ, they are really more alive than you or I. Now, because they are Christians they are part of the united body of Christ. We ask them to intercede for us, in the same way that I ask my friends to pray for me. I know this is kind of convoluted but I hope it at least makes a little sense.

 

[ikonographics]

Being in heaven, the saints are no longer bound by time and space as we are so they don't have to be standing next to us to "hear" us.

 

[Rhamiel]

marciebaby

If you are asking for the prayers and intercessions of those who have already passed away, does that imply that they are omnipresent, like God?

great thread, i have heard a lot of other people say stuff like this too, that Catholics and Orthodox put Saints Triumphant on the same leval as God.
I do not think that at all.
I man standing on a hill can see more then a man in a vally, but just because that man can see a little more does not mean he is omnipresent. A Saint in heaven being able to hear 500,000,000 prayers at one time might seem amazing to us, but next to God who made everything, from nebulas to sub-atomic particals, well being able to hear and understand 500,000,000 prayers is nothing compared to the Wisdom and Power of God.
Saints are just people on a hill, they have a better saet then us but they are still human, now that the race is over for them God totaly sanctified them so they no longer suffer from the effects of sin.

 

[JamesThaddeusMartin]

Let me see...If Christ is in every believer by the Holy Spirit and we in Him, then I would think that wherever Christ is the saints are there also, that is with Him - "in Christ"....one Body.




BD

 

[marciebaby]

But I can really only understand two ways to pray. I can pray silently, to myself, which implies that the saints can read my mind. Or I can pray out loud, which implies that the saints can hear. I suppose if they are *surrounding* us as the unified body of Christ I can kinda see... And that illustration of a man on a hill was good.

Does any else have anything they would like to add?

 

[Rhamiel]

Marciebaby

But I can really only understand two ways to pray. I can pray silently, to myself, which implies that the saints can read my mind. Or I can pray out loud, which implies that the saints can hear. I suppose if they are *surrounding* us as the unified body of Christ I can kinda see... And that illustration of a man on a hill was good.

Does any else have anything they would like to add?

why thank you, you are too kind.
I do not think Saints can read your mind, God can read your mind, He knows everything, Saints can only hear prayers, because we are all one body but many parts, as St.Paul said in his letter to the Corinthians. Prayer is a type of spiritual communication, so spiritual beings can understand it, does not matter if it is out loud or not

 

[narnia59]

But I can really only understand two ways to pray. I can pray silently, to myself, which implies that the saints can read my mind. Or I can pray out loud, which implies that the saints can hear. I suppose if they are *surrounding* us as the unified body of Christ I can kinda see... And that illustration of a man on a hill was good.

Does any else have anything they would like to add?

Marcie, I think there is another option than the two you mention that is probably more accurate. In heaven, our unity with God will be much more complete than it is now. I think the awareness of our prayers is not because they 'hear' us or read our minds. It's because God has knowledge of our prayers, and they share in this knowledge by their complete participation in His life, with no barrier caused by sin. I think you're viewing this with the limitations of an earthbound physical nature, and not that of a heavenly spiritual nature.

I'd suggest you read the 12th chapter of 1st Corinthians and Paul's teaching regarding the body of Christ. We cannot say to other parts of the body that we do not need them. And he teaches that there is no division in the body of Christ. And I believe it is this unity of the body and our need for each other is why we are taught to pray for each other in the first place, as opposed to each of us taking our needs directly to God and never to one another. But in my view, to believe that unity ceases when someone in the family's address changes to heaven is not scriptural, for this would mean there is indeed division in the body.

I'd also suggest reading the 12th chapter of Hebrews which describes how we as Christians approach God in the New Jerusalem, as contrasted with the OT view of a holy mountain that could not be touched. Right there in between "God the judge" and "Jesus the mediator" we see "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". It's my view that everytime we come to God in prayer it is in the presence of the angels and saints. Thus as Paul says about the body, "its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it."

 

[angrylittlefisherman]

It is possible that you are attempting to analyze this too much. It is our default mode as westerners to try and understand things, break them down and make them formulaic if you. Part of Christianity is in fact mystery. Some things we cannot understand no matter how much we try to dissect it.

 

[angrylittlefisherman]

I just read this.
Many people are under the impression that the Saints
are far from us. They are indeed far from those who
have, of their own will, withdrawn themselves, but
they are very near to those who keep the commandments
of Christ and have the grace of the Holy Spirit. In
the heavens, all live and all are sustained by the
Holy Spirit; but the Spirit is the same also upon the
earth. The Holy Spirit unites all men and that is why
the Saints are near to us. When we pray to them, by
the Holy Spirit they hear our prayers and our souls
feel that they are praying for us.

- Saint Silouan of Mount Athos
It can be found here http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=84318
I hope it helps.

 

[simonthezealot]

Let me see...If Christ is in every believer by the Holy Spirit and we in Him, then I would think that wherever Christ is the saints are there also, that is with Him - "in Christ"....one Body.
BD

This sounds very mormon, I don't believe Rome onsiders this a possibility either.

 

[JamesThaddeusMartin]

This sounds very mormon, I don't believe Rome onsiders this a possibility either.

lol, ok



BD