Old Testament and the Messiah's Divinity

[yod]

HaShem would not change nor the worshipping of him, if someone came along and tried to convince otherwise then he is false. This is echoed by Jeremiah.

Before Moses gave you that law, HaShem had already appeared as the form of a man to Abraham & Jacob so he had not changed at all before (or since) His word to Moishe.

There are just too many places where He appears in the Tenach and New Testament in the form of a man to suggest otherwise.

Hi Yod, thing is we also believe that All that we belive is BIBLE...so who's interpretation stands?
It seems that by your claim, you have a problem

You both have used rabbinical sources and non-mashiach-aware jewish opinions and have presented them as if it carries the same weight as the Word. for example;

The Messiah is the LIGHT of the nothing, and the nothing is G-D while the light is the Something of G-D.
so now you can understand "the image of the invisible G-D".

The Father is the nothing is which everything was created.
The first creation of "The NOTHING"- was the Something who is the Messiah- an the Messiah is the one who is the fullness of G-d in visible form but the Messiah himself does not consider himself equal to his creator. And the Messiah helped G-D create the world and all the universe.

However, this is what Judaism believes, just sharing it.

that is not in the bible and it is pretty convoluted logic, too!

Lemme see.....Messiah existed before the creation and helped G-d create the universe...but it a mere mortal man? No where does the Bible call the Messiah a created being either.

He is the fullness of G-d in visible form but mortal? This is closer to idolotry of angels than the simple faith of Yeshua's divine nature, imo. This would require the worship of a created being.

There are literally dozens of places Old & New Testament where Yeshua is worshipped.

I don't know how you can ignore that?

 

[josyau]

Not true according to the Gospels. We can find some instances where Yeshua accepted worship. So, if you accept the Gospels as inspired, then there is only one solution: Yeshua is HaShem incarnated. Otherwise, it would have been the greatest of all sins to accept worship. Unless of course you don't accept the Gospels as inspired and inerrant. In that case, it's a matter of faith and it's beyond any debate.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

This is not necessarily true. Yes I understand that there are passages showing Yahshua being worshipped, however being worshipped does not equal diety. There are numerous passages showing kings, elders, elohim, messiah, in Revelation 3:9 it has Yahshua stating that people will be made to worship the before the feet of saints. In Ex. 18:7 Moses pays homage to his father-n-law using the Hebrew word Shachah.

Yahshua being paid homage, respect, or if you will worship (not the same atrributed to Ha'Shem) would be just fine as those who were doing such had come to recognize Yahshua as their KING. So just as David and other Kings were bowed down before, paid homage to, worship (if you wish to use that word which I believe makes things confusing on some people's part) so it was only practical for those people to do the same with Yahshua the KING of Kings.

 

[simchat_torah]

I might encourage everyone in this thread that while we may disagree with one another, let's keep up a civil debate and respect each individual.

Please, no coy comments, snide remarks, or underhanded criticism.

This is not a matter which I am free from guilt, but I don't want to see our community divided over a particular theology.
shalom and thank you,
Yafet.

 

[Hix]

This could be part of the problem since humans cannot appear like this.

Revelation 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen;

alive for evermore?

How could he send HIS angel if he were just a human being?

Rev 22: 16 I Jesus, have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Really challenging indeed.
How does a human react to one like this? Confusing..

Alive for ever more? Well....when we go to the Olam ha ba the world to come we will be alive for ever more also.....

And I do not deny Yeshua had power, he most certainly does but he is not HaShem, he clearly himself worships HaShem and says HaShem is greater than he is. HaShem is the L-rd G-d of all B'nei Yisrael.
Now HaShem can indeed become man but he would not, and that is because it would lead the Jews to worship something other than HaShem. And its working, there are many already confused who now worship the Moshiach. This is completely against what Moshe taught, it is idolitary plain and simple. Deny this and you are denying the most fundamental part of Judaism, of the Tanach and of the Messiah himself.

Anyway, I hope noone falls out over this, Im kinda tired anyway so I think il go to bed now *yawns* lyla tov everyone and of cource,

Shalom and G-d bless you all
~Hix~

 

[josyau]

This could be part of the problem since humans cannot appear like this.

Revelation 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen;

alive for evermore?

How could he send HIS angel if he were just a human being?

Rev 22: 16 I Jesus, have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Really challenging indeed.
How does a human react to one like this? Confusing..

The answer to that question is simple. It's not about what he is able to do, the question and focal point should be on, who gave him the ability to do it. Throughout the gospels we see Yahshua HIMSELF stating that it was Ha'Shem giving him the ability to work the miracles he did (the Jews acknowledge it as well, the ones that believed of course.). Scriptures state that Ha'Shem rose him from the dead. At last Scriptures state that all things had been given to Yahshua. One verse speaks about Ha'Shem subjecting all things under Yahshua so thus him being able to command messengers is due to his being given that authority by the one true G-d. Yosef (Joseph) and Pharoah is such a perfect illustration of the relationship, positions, and status between Yahshua and Ha'Shem. One should throurougly reread that story.

Remember Yosef saved his own people when they originally rejected him. They bowed down to him (the stone the builders rejected became the chief cornerstone). Yosef saved them by retaining BREAD for the people as long as they gave themselves over to Pharoah (interesting huh?). Yahshua suffered for us Yosef suffered wrongly by his brethren. Yosef ruled over all of Egypt second in command (the people even fell before him) but as Pharoah said "you shalt be over my house, and according unto THY WORD SHALL ALL MY PEOPLE BE RULED (not shouting just emphasizing): only in THE THRONE will I BE GREATER THAN YOU.

Now think about Yahshua's position to Ha'Shem in the end the Scripture state "And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be SUBJECTED to Him that did SUBJECT ALL THINGS UNTO HIM (Yahshua) , that G-d may be all in alll

 

[BenTsion]

This is not necessarily true. Yes I understand that there are passages showing Yahshua being worshipped, however being worshipped does not equal diety. There are numerous passages showing kings, elders, elohim, messiah, in Revelation 3:9 it has Yahshua stating that people will be made to worship the before the feet of saints. In Ex. 18:7 Moses pays homage to his father-n-law using the Hebrew word Shachah.

Yahshua being paid homage, respect, or if you will worship (not the same atrributed to Ha'Shem) would be just fine as those who were doing such had come to recognize Yahshua as their KING. So just as David and other Kings were bowed down before, paid homage to, worship (if you wish to use that word which I believe makes things confusing on some people's part) so it was only practical for those people to do the same with Yahshua the KING of Kings.

Sorry but Scripture is clear that worship is to be given to HaShem ALONE.
So, if the Gospels are true, either he is HaShem or he committed the greatest
of all sins and would not fit the role of Mashiach.

Ben Tsion

 

[josyau]

Sorry but Scripture is clear that worship is to be given to HaShem ALONE.
So, if the Gospels are true, either he is HaShem or he committed the greatest
of all sins and would not fit the role of Mashiach.

Ben Tsion

I must disagree with you Tsion as there are too many scriptures showing others being given worship. The question is, are there differences in the type of worship being given? The answer is yes and that can't be avoided. The Hebrew translated "worship" in our English scriptures is clearly undeniably shown to be given Moses father n law, David, Solomon, saints, Messiah, as well as Ha'Shem. But NO DOUBT there is a difference to what is being given, why it's being given, and to what degree it's being given.

Ex. 18:7​

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Num. 22:31​

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Ruth 2:10​

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1 Sam 2:36​

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1 Sam. 20:41​

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1 Sam. 24:8​

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1 Sam. 25:23, 41​

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2 Sam. 1:2​

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2 Sam. 9:6, 8​

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2 Sam. 12:20​

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2 Sam. 14:4​

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2 Sam. 14:22-23​

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2 Sam. 15:5​

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2 Sam. 15:32​

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1 King 1:16​

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1 King 1:23​

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1 King 1:53​

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2 King 2:19​

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Neh. 8:6​

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Neh. 9:3​

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Revelation 3:9​

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Can you show me the verse that says any form of worship (actually paying homage, respect, reverence, and honor is forbidden? Such a statement of any form of worship being forbidden would then contradict the above passages where others are given this same treatment. You make this issue a forced Trinitarian proof by denying the idea that there's varying forms/degree of worship contrary to what's shown. Again the same Hebrew word for the above definition is being used in these cases.

 

[BenTsion]

First of all, who said anything about Trinitarianism? As far as I'm concerned, it is NOT the only existing theory regarding the nature of G-d. Second, it is all a matter of hermeneutics, there are dozens of verses in the Brit Hadasha which show that: Yeshua and the Father are one, he gives himself the name 'I AM', seeing Him is seeing the Father, they share the same nature, Yeshua is shown to be sitting on the throne of G-d in Revelation, etc. If you wish to try to say 'there might be another interpretation' to EACH AND EVERY one of such verses, fine. But when you depend on so many verses being interpreted in a different way, then your theological conclusion is dangerous, to say the very least.

Ben Tsion

 

[josyau]

First of all, who said anything about Trinitarianism? As far as I'm concerned, it is NOT the only existing theory regarding the nature of G-d. Second, it is all a matter of hermeneutics, there are dozens of verses in the Brit Hadasha which show that: Yeshua and the Father are one, he gives himself the name 'I AM', seeing Him is seeing the Father, they share the same nature, Yeshua is shown to be sitting on the throne of G-d in Revelation, etc. If you wish to try to say 'there might be another interpretation' to EACH AND EVERY one of such verses, fine. But when you depend on so many verses being interpreted in a different way, then your theological conclusion is dangerous, to say the very least.

Ben Tsion

Regardless of which perspective your coming from the fact remains that worship alone does not make a person diety. This has absolutely nothing to do with hermeneutics or interpretation. You stated that him being worshipped Him being G-d. Man being worshipped = Man must be G-d I clearly showed that other Scriptures show otherwise Men being worshipped = They were of high regard, honor, Kings, etc.

Regarding the "I am" debacle is lengthy and there are many great web sites that deal with that issue if you are interested I can give them to you in a PM, if not fine. I will deal with the issue of Yahshua sitting on the throne in a minute as that is not what the scriptures state.

Your last comment about interpretation is just as moot as the point someone else brought earlier. You are basically saying "I can interpret these verses my way and it is the right way" Though it is obvious and much easier to just accuse you of having a false interpretation like you did me (but I won't go there). But my interpretation and seeing it different way must be the one in error. Wow, I can say the very same thing back at you, does it accomplish anything or prove who is correct, NO.

I respond to the throne issue in my next post. Think carefully about such moot statements as they can go around and around til we're blue in the face proving nothing of the cases we are presenting. You rely on seeing each verse discussed differently and so do I my friend.

 

[Henaynei]

I must disagree with you Tsion as there are too many scriptures showing others being given worship. The question is, are there differences in the type of worship being given? The answer is yes and that can't be avoided. The Hebrew translated "worship" in our English scriptures is clearly undeniably shown to be given Moses father n law, David, Solomon, saints, Messiah, as well as Ha'Shem. But NO DOUBT there is a difference to what is being given, why it's being given, and to what degree it's being given.

Can you show me the verse that says any form of worship (actually paying homage, respect, reverence, and honor is forbidden? Such a statement of any form of worship being forbidden would then contradict the above passages where others are given this same treatment. You make this issue a forced Trinitarian proof by denying the idea that there's varying forms/degree of worship contrary to what's shown. Again the same Hebrew word for the above definition is being used in these cases.

I would like to point out that after His resurrection Yeshua appeared to the apostles several times. We are all familiar with the time He appeared that included Tomas/Thomas. At the encounter Tomas fell to his knees and proclaimed "My L-rd and my G-d." Yeshua did not correct him but rather endorsed him by saying "You believe because you have seen, blessed are those who believe and have not seen."

In this case Yeshua clearly accepted worship as G-d. IF He was not G-d then He is guilty of the most vile form of blasphemy and is not Messiah, period.

 

[josyau]

Yod, same goes for you, if you wish to see an explanation to that "I AM" secret coded divinity issue let me know and I will provide links in a PM as I will not go through posting lengthy material such as that.

Concerning Yahshua supposedly being divine by sitting on G-d's throne:

Revelation 5:6-7
6. And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing,[obviously this is Yahshua as he is the Lamb of G-d][Question: Is he in the midst of the same throne he is supposedly already sitting on? John stated that there was one on the throne already and now here Yahshua in the midst of not only the throne but what was surrounding the throne] as though it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth.
7. And he [Yahshua] came, and he[Yahshua] took it out of the right hand of Him [Ha'Shem] that sat on the throne. [Can you explain him taking the book from himself if he was on the throne to begin with?, whose right hand is that anyway?]

Revelation 5:13

13. And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne, AND unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, for ever and ever. [Sounds like two individuals to me, one is already on the throne and it's not the Lamb]

Revelation 7:10

10. and they cry with a great voice, saying, Salvation unto our G-d who sitteth on the throne [the person on the throne is identified as G-d from whom the Lamb (Yahshua) took the book from earlier], and unto the Lamb.

Revelation 21:22

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord G-d the Almighty, AND the Lamb, are the temple thereof [Two serparate positions and individuals: The Lord G-d, the Almighty and the other, the Lamb].

BTW

Revelation 4:8-11 shows a difference in degree to which the individual (G-D) is worshipped compared to Revelation 5:9-12. In verse 12 we see:

Worthy is the Lamb that hath been slain to receive [obviously from G-d]the power, and riches, and wisdom, and might and honor, and glory, and blessing.

 

[josyau]

I am at fault for not realizing that this was not a place to discuss the diety of Messiah amongst fellow Messianic brethren. In that case I will cease from such activities though I would pray that my brethren (rather Christian, Jew, Messianic Jew) would all reexamine their position in this though it be a heavy topic. If any would wish to continue further in what has been started then please PM or email me.

Heneynai,

I could very well answer the question you brought up concerning the Thomas issue if you would like. Out of respect for the policy here though please PM if you wish for me to respond as I would not want to just dump a PM on you if it's not your desire.

 

[yod]

Using the book of Revelation is not a good idea, imo. There is just too much symbolism to make any hard & fast theological points. Is Yeshua a literal Lamb or Lion? If that is symbolic then why assume the separation of the One on the Throne? I see no reason to.


I can't begin to explain how G-d can become a man in the first place. It's beyond our finite understanding. I also can not explain how the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One but they are. I can't explain creation, redemption, blood atonement, or the third heaven. All I can do is tell you what the Bible says about it.

Was anyone else in heaven being worshipped? How about Moses? David? Abraham?]

No mention of them even being there (though they must be) Why isn't Moses the One who opens the scroll?

The answer is quite simple. Only Yeshua has the divine nature of G-d...but He is not a separate entity. He and the Father are One.

 

[ShirChadash]

I am late into the discussion, I realize, but I want very much to say...

for a thorough treatment of this issue, please please please read Risto Santala's book, The Messiah in the Old Testament in the Light of Rabbinical Writings.

His NT treatment of the subject is excellent as well (in his NT book), but the TaNaKh and Rabbinical sources he uses for the OT book... just amazing and very useful and clear, in my humble opinion.

 

[theseed]

http://www.christianforums.com/t87511

ANYONE PARTICIPATING IN THIS THREAD, SEE THE ABOVE

Does that mean I should not have started this thread?

 

[BenTsion]

About the reference in Revelation, first we have G-d saying the following:

"...I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give water as a gift from the spring of the water of life. Those who conquer will inherit these things, and I will be their God and they will be my children."
(Revelation 22:6-7 - NRSV)

Then we have Yeshua saying:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. "It is I, Jesus, who sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star." The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let everyone who hears say, "Come." And let everyone who is thirsty come. Let anyone who wishes take the water of life as a gift."
(Revelation 22:13-17)

Apparently, Yeshua thinks He is G-d. Scripture above is VERY CLEAR (and so is the one Henaynei posted earlier and several others). So either He is a lunatic, or an impostor, or HaShem in flesh.

In Yeshua the Mighty G-d,
Ben Tsion

 

[Henaynei]

I am late into the discussion, I realize, but I want very much to say...

for a thorough treatment of this issue, please please please read Risto Santala's book, The Messiah in the Old Testament in the Light of Rabbinical Writings.

His NT treatment of the subject is excellent as well (in his NT book), but the TaNaKh and Rabbinical sources he uses for the OT book... just amazing and very useful and clear, in my humble opinion.

Also see What the Rabbis knew about Messiah by Rachmyel Freidman (sp?)

 

[theseed]

Did Yeshuah make himself equal with HaShem by saying he was his own Father?

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin...age=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on

John 5:18
For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin...age=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=onhttp://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin...age=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on

If Yeshua The Messiah was HaShem incarnate, and he fulliled the Law, then does it still break the Law buy worshipping The Annointed One?

 

[yod]

If Yeshua The Messiah was HaShem incarnate, and he fulliled the Law, then does it still break the Law buy worshipping The Annointed One?

how dare you come in here and use common sense??? Can't you see there are people trying to argue???

LOL

 

[Linda8]

Did Yeshuah make himself equal with HaShem by saying he was his own Father?



If Yeshua The Messiah was HaShem incarnate, and he fulliled the Law, then does it still break the Law buy worshipping The Annointed One?

He teaches that we should direct all worship to the Father.

As to situations where people have directed any worship to Him post resurrection, I believe those situations should not be dwelt on intensely
by those of us alive today.