Old Beliefs/Practices No Longer Held

[Peter]

As some of you know, from my other posts, I am a former Reformed Protestant who has returned home (almost). Because of my unique situation, still woking in a Reformed Protestant educational institution, I started to do some digging about what the reformers actually taught regarding certain subjects. Some I can relate here, but others I would like some help on. That's what this thread is all about, research.

So, here we go.

Reformers and the sign of the Cross:Luther taught that one should make the sign of the cross. However, I've not found any teaching, for or against, by Calvin. Any help here?

Reformers and the Ever Vigin Mary:
Luther and Zwingli were staunch defenders of Mary's ever virginity. Calvin, in his commentary on Matthew, nods in this direction. Again, does anyone know of any concrete statements one way or another by Calvin?

This will do for now. These are two areas I'm having dialogue over with a Reformed elder.

Peace.

Peter

 

[mtown]

I don't want to sound antagonistic, but what is this post doing here?

As an Orthodox Christian, I don't pay any mind to what Reformer Prostestants do. If you in turn consider yourself an Orthodox Christian, why do you pay so much mind to it. Even if you were born into the Protestant Church, you are now a witness to the Orthodox Faith. If you are having problems reconsilling your Faith with your career, it is something to take up with your spirtual father or mother.

You now walk in the light, do not return to the darkness!

 

[MariaRegina]

Dear Peter:

We are discussing the ancient faith in the Didache thread. We will continue to discuss it after that thread is complete when we start with the Epistles of St. Ignatius and Hermas.

Sometimes it is best to deal with reformers by mentioning what the Early Church did during the Apostolic times. They were already making the sign of the Cross. They confessed their sins publicly before receiving Holy Communion. They honored the Ever Virgin Mary - in fact St. Luke the Evangelist painted three stars on his icon to symbolize that she was a virgin before the Birth of Christ, during the Birth of Christ and remained so after the Birth of Christ.

So refer to the wealth of Orthodoxy to teach your reformist friends, especially the teachings of the early Church Fathers.

A very good source would be the book by Father Peter Gilquist, Becoming Orthodox which was published by Conciliar Press. It goes into all these problems which you mention.

Hope this helps.
Elizabeth

 

[Peter]

After looking at my original post, I can see why mtown would ask some of the questions he did. I didn't provide enough info to my situation.

I am not trying to ease a guilty concious here. If I believe what mtown wrote, and I do, that I no longer walk in darkness, then I know that I have an obligation to be a light to that darkness. What kind of Christian would I be if I didn't at least try to help those in need? To make reference to "The Brother's Karamatzov," (sp) it's not my onion, it's our onion.

Elizabeth, it has been my experience that the fathers hold little weight with my Protestant friends unless they agree with their Protestant view.
I've found it much more useful to discuss first the changes that have occured within their own beliefs.

Seeing as how most of the Orthodox in here are converts, and thinking that most of us wrestled with some of these issues, I thought I might find some help.

Peace.

Peter

 

[mtown]

When searching for answers concerning the questions you raised we need to first look for answers from the great Orthodox Theologians of our Church.

Here is a great homily from St. Gregory Palamas concerning the Theotokos, more precisely it is about the Dormition of the Theotokos.

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/dormition.html

but always remember Peter, there is a difference between evangelising and prostelysing. Be careful.

In Christ,

Milty

 

[mtown]

another article on the Theotokos

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/maria_florovsky_e.htm

and

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/mary.htm

 

[Photini]

Elizabeth, it has been my experience that the fathers hold little weight with my Protestant friends unless they agree with their Protestant view.
I've found it much more useful to discuss first the changes that have occured within their own beliefs.

Seeing as how most of the Orthodox in here are converts, and thinking that most of us wrestled with some of these issues, I thought I might find some help.

Peace.

Peter

I dealt with a family issue over my converting. I was a former so-called "non-denominational" Christian before (but not a very good one). I can't answer any of your questions above, but just wanted to let you know that I know sort of what you're going through. The #1 best question posed to me was "Why can't you just go to a regular church?"

 

[Reader Nilus]

Peter you are correct, if talking with a Lutheran for example it would be helpful to show them how far Lutheranism is away from its roots in the Book of Concord. The arousing of curiosity in their own history will cause them to get curious about Church History in general, when that happens Orthodoxy becomes a sought after Church.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Patristic]

Welcome Peter, I too was formerly a Reformed Protestant, and a very staucnh one at that, until I began to see the cracks and weaknesses in that belief system, and saw how far it was from the faith of the early Church. In response to your original questions, I could provide you with some details and sources, but I must warn you now that it probably wouldn't do any good in convincing someone to believe in a particular doctrine.

For the most part, and as you probably already know, Protestants are very individual minded and follow their own consciences when it comes to interpreting scripture and following God. Since they believe they have the Holy Spirit, and they are illumined, they understand Scripture reading to be a personal exercise and they understand it in a mostly individualistic way. Furthermore, since they believe in Sola Scriptura they believe that any belief not in accordance with Scripture can be rejected, and if anyone wrote advocating that position their belief can be disregarded.

Now, to the destination I wanted to go with this post. Most Protestants will reject quotes from Luther, Zwingli, Calvin or Knox advocating using the sign of the cross or upholding Mary's ever-virginity because they will just say that those men were wrong, and didn't understand Scripture. They will pick and choose from among their writings what they like and agree with, and what they don't like and disagree with. I saw this happen in a debate between Gerry Matatics and James White, where they were debating the specific Marian beliefs. Matatics, an RCC apologist, was defending the ever-virginity of Mary and provided a quote by John Calvin also supporting this view. When Dr. White finally got to respond he just said that Calvin was saying people shouldn't debate the issue and it doesn't matter what you believe. White, who is a hardcore Calvinist and regularly quotes from Calvin's works, just gets to disregard the beliefs of his own theological founder because he doesn't like what he has to say. This is what you will find among most Protestants if you try to convince them in this manner.

 

[Peter]

Thanks, Patristic. You're right, of course. Calvin himself quoted St. John Chrysostom, but only the parts Calvin agreed with. So, I guess it's a case of "like father, like son."

I have no desire to "bash" my background. It got me to Orthodoxy. (I was, after all, introduced to Christ within Protestantism)

With all do respect. Could we please close this thread? Or could the moderator eliminate it all together?

Thank you.

Peter