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Oh so many questions

Sparkalinda

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This was also posted in the Newbee forum but hasn't gotten enough attention for my likeing.

Ok here are my next questions which my cause a bit of a frenzy but hey! Ize is just a lernin.

So why is the divinity of Jesus so important? Why can you not believe that Jesus was a great man and follow his teachings but not accept his divinity.

Which is more important his teachings or his Divinity?



Sparky ;)
 
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MinDach

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So why is the divinity of Jesus so important? Why can you not believe that Jesus was a great man and follow his teachings but not accept his divinity


Because if he is not who he said he is, then we are all done for.... then there is no heaven, no hell, no nothing, we would be better off living our lives like there is no tomorrow. Who would even care about right or wrong. The best we could ever hope for is a pain free death. But there is a heaven, and we can only find it thr Jesus Christ. That is our Hope, faith, our being. The Holy Spirit testifies to the truth that Christ is the Son of God.
 
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Sparkalinda

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MinDach said:
Because if he is not who he said he is, then we are all done for.... then there is no heaven, no hell, no nothing, we would be better off living our lives like there is no tomorrow. Who would even care about right or wrong.

I have difficulty buying that. I have not been living my life "like there is no tomorrow" and I have not embrased Jesus as saviour. I live much like a good Christian does in an effort to make myself and the world a better place. I care about right and wrong and teach my children as such.

I am looking for a reason to believe in the divinity of Christ and generalizations such as this (effort appreciated however) do not constitute sufficient evidence in favour of such faith.
 
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crossrunner

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Because Jesus, Himself, claimed to be divine.
*He refered to Himself as "I am" (John 8:58) in the same way as God did when Moses talked to Him in the burning bush account in Exodus.
* He forgave others of their sins.
*He accepted worship from Thomas (among others) who claimed Him to be God when he touched Him after His resurrection (John 20:28).
*He encouraged Peter when Peter said that Jesus was "the Christ the Son of the Living God" (Matt 16:15-17)
*He said that He and the Father (God) are One (John 10:30)
He was nearly stoned several times by the religious leaders of His time because of His claims that they saw as blasphemy. He ultimately died for these claims.
I could go on.
The way I see it...if I believe Jesus just to be a "good man" and not divine than that, in my mind would make Him a liar or crazy because He claimed Himself to be so much more.
I'm not here to debate (Its not a gift of mine...believe me...I could lose the easiest of debates!) I didn't even want to answer this post because its not my nature to post things when I'm afraid that others may flame me...but God really put it on my heart to answer you in a kind and respectful way. He cares about you. This answer was done in a very loving and prayful manner. I hope you recieve it as such. God bless you always.
cr
 
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seeking.IAM

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I'd give you my answer but I cannot state it any better than how C.S. Lewis answered it in Mere Christianity.

Lewis wrote:

"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be lunatic--on the level of a man who says he is a poached egg--or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

Merely a great man? I think not.

seeking.IAM
<><
 
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GodFlute2

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"So why is the divinity of Jesus so important?"
That's kind of a faith issue. To me it's one of those things that I can't explain.

"Why can you not believe that Jesus was a great man and follow his teachings but not accept his divinity."
Because his teachings teach that you have to "accept his divinity." If you don't believe that, then you aren't following his teachings.

"Which is more important his teachings or his Divinity?"
You can't choose one over the other. With out one you don't have the other and vise-versa.
 
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Macca

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Sparkalinda said:
This was also posted in the Newbee forum but hasn't gotten enough attention for my likeing.

Ok here are my next questions which my cause a bit of a frenzy but hey! Ize is just a lernin.

So why is the divinity of Jesus so important? Why can you not believe that Jesus was a great man and follow his teachings but not accept his divinity.

Which is more important his teachings or his Divinity?



Sparky ;)
The previous answers you have are good, I would like to add a little to them.
The penalty for sin is death; because we are all humans like Adam was, we have the indwelling ability to sin, so we all deserve death.
The only possible way to pay the penalty is for a sinless person to die for sin, then the debt is paid.
Jesus, being a divine person He was sinless, therefore was able to pay the penalty for us who could not do it for ourselves.
If we could pay the price, then He died for nothing.
Hope this helps.
Macca. :preach:
 
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Whitestone

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Sparkalinda said:
I have difficulty buying that. I have not been living my life "like there is no tomorrow" and I have not embrased Jesus as saviour. I live much like a good Christian does in an effort to make myself and the world a better place. I care about right and wrong and teach my children as such.

I am looking for a reason to believe in the divinity of Christ and generalizations such as this (effort appreciated however) do not constitute sufficient evidence in favour of such faith.

Hello Sparky

I was just reading over this post and part of it caught my eye, you mention you live your life as a good Christian which I can appreciate the sentiment however the term/title/identifyer as a Christian means that we are a follower of Christ and would strive to make the world a more Godly place not necessarily better. I know the two should be the same statement however if we look to Matthew 10:34-36

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter'in'law against her mother-mother-inlaw--a man's enemies willbe the members of his own household." NIV

Jesus knew He was going to be controversial and cause conflict among people when telling them to repent and come back to God. He knew people would fight and die over His words, but He also knew that it was the Lord's will for Him to preach as He did.

To answer the divinity question usually as Christians we say the bible says so, which does not help if someone doesn't believe that the bible is the Word of God written for us so we can better understand. So I like to take a diferent approach, I like to look at how much Jesus affected the world. He never put a pen to paper to write a book, song, or held a brush to paint a picture...yet more songs, stories, poems, paintings have been created for Him than any other person that lived. He only preached for three years, 2 thousand years ago and He is still one of the biggest topics of conversation.
This to me shows that He is much more than just a good man.

Whitestone
 
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Sparkalinda

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Whitestone said:
Hello Sparky

I was just reading over this post and part of it caught my eye, you mention you live your life as a good Christian which I can appreciate the sentiment however the term/title/identifyer as a Christian means that we are a follower of Christ and would strive to make the world a more Godly place not necessarily better.
Whitestone

Thanks for the post Whitestone but I have to point out a discrepancy between your interpretation of what I said and what I said.

To quote myself: "I live much like a good Christian does in an effort to make myself and the world a better place"

Now I know the difference could simply be considered semantics but I do not want anyone thinking I am claiming something I am not "living much like" is different than "living as". You use "as" as a preposition creating a direct comparison between Living and Christian. The use of "Much like" as in my claim allows for a difference between a "Christian" and myself. This difference is my lack of belief in his divinity and the area which I am seeking help for.

Where does this belief come from? Revelation, learned behaviour, innate understanding, indoctrination... Someone please explain in terms that a mere mortal and ignorant sole such as mine can understand.



Thanks!

Sparky

 
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sinner/SAVED

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Sparkalinda said:
I live much like a good Christian does in an effort to make myself and the world a better place.

Could you define exactly how a "good Christian" lives?


I care about right and wrong and teach my children as such.

Knowledge of right and wrong is fine but acknowledgement of just how wrong we all are is the first step on the narrow path that Jesus calls us to walk.

I am looking for a reason to believe in the divinity of Christ

As has been said previously, Jesus was what He said He was or He lied. If He lied He is neither divine nor one worthy of emulating.
 
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Sparkalinda

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sinner/SAVED said:
Could you define exactly how a "good Christian" lives?




Knowledge of right and wrong is fine but acknowledgement of just how wrong we all are is the first step on the narrow path that Jesus calls us to walk.

I kinda get the feeling that you feel it isn’t possible to know right from wrong unless you have accepted Jesus Christ as a divine being. This I believe is complete falsehood that only serves to exclude rather than include. The end result is that people are chased away from Christianity instead of welcoming "lost sheep" with open arms.


I will expand as to what I mean by right and wrong in a later post.

sinner/SAVED said:
As has been said previously, Jesus was what He said He was or He lied. If He lied He is neither divine nor one worthy of emulating.

Correct me if I am wrong but others have authored what we know of his divinity. What we take as truth from the bible is not the truth from Jesus’s mouth but the truth as observed by others.

One thing I am astonished about is an underlying notion in some of your posts, that every thing Jesus stood for and taught is worthless with out his divinity.

Please understand I am not looking for a theological fight, just some direction.

:cool:
 
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sinner/SAVED

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If Christ is not God, then devoting one's life to Christ makes no more sense than devoting one's life to Billy Graham. If Jesus is just one of us, or just a great preacher, then why should He have any claim to us. We are Christians, not because Jesus was a great teacher of morals, or because His ideas reflect the best way to live in society. We are Christians because, in Christ, we have been transformed and are new creatures. We don't simply follow doctrine and live like "good Christians". We are in a two-way relationship with our God.
 
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crossrunner

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Yes, Jesus' teachings are very important. We live by what He has said and what He has said is our guideline to living our lives in a holy manner. But as sinner/SAVED has said...our devotion to Christ is due to His transforming us...changing us.
My devotion to Him is because He has given me salvation through His sacrifice on the cross.
 
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Whitestone

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Sparkalinda said:
Thanks for the post Whitestone but I have to point out a discrepancy between your interpretation of what I said and what I said.

To quote myself: "I live much like a good Christian does in an effort to make myself and the world a better place"

Now I know the difference could simply be considered semantics but I do not want anyone thinking I am claiming something I am not "living much like" is different than "living as". You use "as" as a preposition creating a direct comparison between Living and Christian. The use of "Much like" as in my claim allows for a difference between a "Christian" and myself. This difference is my lack of belief in his divinity and the area which I am seeking help for.

Where does this belief come from? Revelation, learned behaviour, innate understanding, indoctrination... Someone please explain in terms that a mere mortal and ignorant sole such as mine can understand.



Thanks!

Sparky


Hello Again Sparky

I appologize if I came off abrupt about the good Christian thing, I think it is a pet peeve of mine that some people who claim to be Christian or even good Christians seem to know little about or attempt to follow Jesus's teachings. Once again I am sorry if I seemed abrasive in my last post.

Your question of where does the belief come from is a very good question, because it is diferent for all of us. Here is the abridged version of my testimony.

For a short time I was really not happy with life, and through what I now call Divine intervention I found/felt that it was not my time. This is where I began to believe in a God.

Couple years later I met a girl and fell in love with her, she said she wouldn't marry me if I wasn't a Christian, so begrudginly I let her drag me to church.

About this time it had become apparent to me that I wanted purpose to me life, this was a ingrane part of me so it made me a little more receptive to going to church.

This is where it got strange for me, in my thoughts of if I became a Christian and what would I have to change, I went through a sequence of my personality and behaviors that I thought were good by worldly standards, and thought that if I became a Christian I could maintain these behaviors. Each week my wife (yes that nice girl eventually married me) took me to church and the pastor taught on the issues that I had thought over and thought I could keep as a Christian, he preached about where in the bible it said not to have or continue these behaviors then described in simple terms of how they effected my life. This spooked me because it seemed like the pastor was answering the question I never asked anyone.

I decided to accept Christ and become a Christian, my wife married and then for a year or more I lived like one of the previously mentioned "good" Christians. It finally dawned on me that I knew very little about Christ.

This is when began to read the bible, I finished it after about another year and was quite confused about alot of things, so I decided to read it again. THIS is where I began to understand and that revelation thing happened, it finally made sense. This is where I actually began to follow Christ not just say I was.

I know this is a long explanation but I hope it helps show that it usually is not just one thing that makes someone a believer. One of the best ways I think you can find the answer you are looking for is to pray about it.

If you have more questions please ask,
Whitestone
 
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Adoniram

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Sparkalinda-

You have trouble believing in the divinity of Jesus which is understandable to one not knowledgable in the faith.

First, Jesus tells us he was divine. John 10:30- "I and my Father are one." For that statement alone many of the Jews wanted to stone him because they considered the statement to be blasphemous. Moreover, when Jesus was baptized a voice from the heavens was heard proclaiming "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Matt. 3:17

Secondly, the proof of his divinity lies in his resurrection, which was witnessed by many people. Jesus told his followers that he would he would die and rise again. Matt. 20:18-19(NIV) "We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death, and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!" John 10:17-18(NIV) "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life–only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." Rising from the dead proved that he was who he said he was.

The Apostle Paul has an important discussion on this in 1 Cor. 15. As it is too long for me to paste here, please read it for yourself. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Cor 15;&version=31; But the main point is in verse 17 "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins." But Christ did raise from the dead and because of that we as Christians know that we will be raised also, redeemed from a sentence of death (Rom. 6:23) because we are sinners. What we can expect is detailed toward the end of chapter 15 in verses 51-58.

I hope this is helpful to you. I will check back later for your comments.

God Bless
 
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by pure grace

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Hi Sparklinda,

I would like to ask you something:

You say: "I live much like a good Christian does in an effort to make myself and the world a better place. I care about right and wrong and teach my children as such."
Do you get everything, I mean everything correct in life? I mean, you never have bad thoughts? Never get upset in traffic jams, get jealous of somebody or irritated with your kids/family/ friends/ workmates etc?
I do! Every single day I do something wrong or have a 'bad' thought, say something that was not kind etc. So when you say that you live lika a good Christian - there is still nobody perfect. That why Jesus said that we get saved (set free from this set of worlds rules) BY GRACE (grace= unconditional love), thorugh faith -and this is not from yourselves, it is the GIFT of God -not by WORKS (works= our own actions)so that NO ONE CAN BOAST. What does that all mean in plain English? Well, that we can get brownie points with God. He loves us -as we are -warts and all, and to enter His amazing world of 'new life', all we have to do is accept His gift to us, which means believe that Jesus Christ IS who he says he is.
I suggest you get hold of an awesome book about a Christian man from China, called Brother Yun. The title of the book is: 'The heavenly Man'. Because in that book you will see how amazing Jesus is today. If He wasn't divine, no amazing thing would ever happen to those who has become his friends!
All the best!
 
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