Oh oh...Did God ordain the Holocaust?

[Terrence Theodore]

And what of Modern slavery as practiced in early America? If God did NOT ordain these events, then...

1. did God have power to stop the events?

2. does he love the people who suffered and died in those events?

3. if he loved them and he had power to stop the murder of millions, why didn't he help?

 

[simonpeter]

Let's say God ordains that A should kill B. But, if A kills B exercising his free will, it means that he is capable of killing even if God had not ordained that particular event. Therefore, even though God has ordained that event, the fact remains that A did exercise his free will and chose killing instead of its opposite; so that makes A guilty, despite predestination.

This is the context in which I see holocaust and other tragedies. Predestination and free will coexist...

 

[bleitzel]

And what of Modern slavery as practiced in early America? If God did NOT ordain these events, then...

1. did God have power to stop the events?

2. does he love the people who suffered and died in those events?

3. if he loved them and he had power to stop the murder of millions, why didn't he help?

OP question: No, God did not ordaiun them.

1.) Yes

2.) Yes, He did/does have the power.

3.) The suffering we experience in this life time is not God's nor our concern. Our eternality is/should be.

 

[467AIR]

God is God and if something happens it happens because God ordained it.

Man does have a freewill to sin, but does not have a freewill to save himself.

The reason we are here is overcome, and suffering is a big part of it.

Man cannot come to God unless God quickens or draws man first.

Predestination is according to God's order not ours.

 

[sungaunga]

God allowed it for His own Glory

 

[cygnusx1]

Let's say God ordains that A should kill B. But, if A kills B exercising his free will, it means that he is capable of killing even if God had not ordained that particular event. Therefore, even though God has ordained that event, the fact remains that A did exercise his free will and chose killing instead of its opposite; so that makes A guilty, despite predestination.

This is the context in which I see holocaust and other tragedies. Predestination and free will coexist...

excellent point , none are forced against their wills to sin , ever .

 

[cygnusx1]

God allowed it for His own Glory

well summed up , the God who has no choice has no glory !

 

[Dark_Lite]

And what of Modern slavery as practiced in early America? If God did NOT ordain these events, then...

1. did God have power to stop the events?

2. does he love the people who suffered and died in those events?

3. if he loved them and he had power to stop the murder of millions, why didn't he help?

This is the classic problem of evil. "If God is so loving/omnipotent/nice, why does he allow millions to die?" The answers to these problems are known as theodicies. My favored theodicy is the Irenaean theodicy, named after Irenaeus. Basically, God intends the world as a place of soul-making, and will not interfere with free will.

God allowed it for His own Glory

That is a disturbing thought, to say the least. God gets glorified by allowing the slaughter of millions?

 

[467AIR]

We are all forced to sin. Did you choose to be born in a carnal earthy body? It is our nature to sin, it is called the fall, or spiritual death. Adam had no choice.

excellent point , none are forced against their wills to sin , ever .

 

[nobdysfool]

One thing the Holocaust certainly does, is to highlight the wickedness of men. It also highlights the hatred of the children of Satan toward God's chosen, Israel, and their descendants, no matter how distant.

 

[cygnusx1]

We are all forced to sin. Did you choose to be born in a carnal earthy body? It is our nature to sin, it is called the fall, or spiritual death. Adam had no choice.

it is not force but desire that is the cause of sin , it's from within not without .

 

[elman]

We are all forced to sin. Did you choose to be born in a carnal earthy body? It is our nature to sin, it is called the fall, or spiritual death. Adam had no choice.

Sin is a choice just as love is a choice. No choice, no sin and no love. Adam had a choice. He could obey God and not eat or he could disobey God and eat. We all have a choice. We can obey Jesus and love our neighbor or we can chose to not obey Jesus and not love our neighor. One cannot be forced to love. That is not love. It is the same with sin.

 

[elman]

And what of Modern slavery as practiced in early America? If God did NOT ordain these events, then...

1. did God have power to stop the events?

2. does he love the people who suffered and died in those events?

3. if he loved them and he had power to stop the murder of millions, why didn't he help?

How does God ordaining these events or being the cause of them help explain them?

 

[cygnusx1]

How does God ordaining these events or being the cause of them help explain them?

it goes some way to explaining "the problem of evil" , God knows He can bring good out of evil or else He would never have permitted it in the first place , God is not a fool .

 

[elman]

it goes some way to explaining "the problem of evil" , God knows He can bring good out of evil or else He would never have permitted it in the first place , God is not a fool .

I don't think you think ordaining evil is simply permitting evil. I agree God permits evil. I also believe God can bring good out of evil, but that is not the same as believe God does evil or causes us to do evil.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

That is a disturbing thought, to say the least. God gets glorified by allowing the slaughter of millions?

Exd 15:1 Then Moses and the sons of Israel sang this song to the LORD, and said, "I will sing to the LORD, for He is highly exalted; The horse and its rider He has hurled into the sea.
Exd 15:2 "The LORD is my strength and song, And He has become my salvation; This is my God, and I will praise Him; My father's God, and I will extol Him.
Exd 15:3 "The LORD is a warrior; The LORD is His name.
Exd 15:4 "Pharaoh's chariots and his army He has cast into the sea; And the choicest of his officers are drowned in the Red Sea.
Exd 15:5 "The deeps cover them; They went down into the depths like a stone.
Exd 15:6 "Your right hand, O LORD, is majestic in power, Your right hand, O LORD, shatters the enemy.
Exd 15:7 "And in the greatness of Your excellence You overthrow those who rise up against You; You send forth Your burning anger, {and} it consumes them as chaff.
Exd 15:8 "At the blast of Your nostrils the waters were piled up, The flowing waters stood up like a heap; The deeps were congealed in the heart of the sea.
Exd 15:9 "The enemy said, 'I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; My desire shall be gratified against them; I will draw out my sword, my hand will destroy them.'
Exd 15:10 "You blew with Your wind, the sea covered them; They sank like lead in the mighty waters.
Exd 15:11 "Who is like You among the gods, O LORD? Who is like You, majestic in holiness, Awesome in praises, working wonders?
Exd 15:12 "You stretched out Your right hand, The earth swallowed them.
Exd 15:13 "In Your lovingkindness You have led the people whom You have redeemed; In Your strength You have guided {them} to Your holy habitation.
Exd 15:14 "The peoples have heard, they tremble; Anguish has gripped the inhabitants of Philistia.
Exd 15:15 "Then the chiefs of Edom were dismayed; The leaders of Moab, trembling grips them; All the inhabitants of Canaan have melted away.
Exd 15:16 "Terror and dread fall upon them; By the greatness of Your arm they are motionless as stone; Until Your people pass over, O LORD, Until the people pass over whom You have purchased.
Exd 15:17 "You will bring them and plant them in the mountain of Your inheritance, The place, O LORD, which You have made for Your dwelling, The sanctuary, O Lord, which Your hands have established.
Exd 15:18 "The LORD shall reign forever and ever."
Exd 15:19 For the horses of Pharaoh with his chariots and his horsemen went into the sea, and the LORD brought back the waters of the sea on them, but the sons of Israel walked on dry land through the midst of the sea.

The Lord, glorified by the slaughter of, maybe not millions, but many.

 

[Rightglory]

467AIR,

We are all forced to sin. Did you choose to be born in a carnal earthy body? It is our nature to sin, it is called the fall, or spiritual death. Adam had no choice.

Really, so Christ's death and resurrection has no effect upon man. So it is quite rediculous for Christ to say that we should not live in the flesh, but live in the spirit. Have you ever read the Beatitudes? Sorta rediculous statements by Christ if all we do is sin and are forced to sin.

So why give Adam a choice if Adam could not do differently that what God had already ordained. Is God playing games with Adam and us?

What has being created or born got to do with anything.
It is our fallen nature that influences or cause our wills to act and act against God. If this were actually true then Jesus could not have resisted the Devil and his temptations. In fact, Christ would not need to be tempted, he would naturally sin, since he had the very same nature as we do.

Where is it stated that the fall was spiritual death? Did Christ die a spiritual death? Does man only die a spiritual death?

 

[Jpark]

One thing the Holocaust certainly does, is to highlight the wickedness of men. It also highlights the hatred of the children of Satan toward God's chosen, Israel, and their descendants, no matter how distant.

Indeed, God used Germany, an enemy of the Jews, to punish the Jews. It's just that people don't see the Holocaust in a good light. It is evidence God loves the Jews.

 

[467AIR]

The Christ life is with in also, and that too is from God. Call it what ever you want man is a slave to sin be they just or unjust. It is only by the grace of God that I am what I am.

it is not force but desire that is the cause of sin , it's from within not without .

 

[elman]

Indeed, God used Germany, an enemy of the Jews, to punish the Jews. It's just that people don't see the Holocaust in a good light. It is evidence God loves the Jews.

No it is not any such evidence of love. It is simply evidence of how evil man can be and that God will allow us to be evil, but it is not evidence God wants us to be evil. Also God was not punishing the Jews with the Holocaust just He was not punishing New Orleans with Katrina and He was not punishing Haiti with the earthquake.