Oh my!

Luther1521 said:

Within the confines of Marriage for the purpose of procreation. I am coming to understand more and more that contraception is the bigger evil within marriage.

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Not so sure I agree with that. However, if this gets expanded on, I'm going to back out of this conversation. Given the fertility issues my husband and I are going through, I'm just going to get hurt.

I found this by Pastor Paul McCain in his blog: http://cyberbrethren.typepad.com/cyberbrethren/2007/02/sex_for_lent.html

From that, I found this link: http://www.wiredchurches.com/site/index.html This makes one wonder even more about it. It comes from a church called Granger Community Church. I am not finding anything regarding their beliefs on the church's website. After much digging I did find it.

Guess one can purchase some or all of the "program" to see what it says if they want to.

LilLamb219 said:

A Lutheran pastor in suburban Detroit looking for creative ways to discuss sex with his congregants has some people hot and bothered with his most recent tactic.
Epic Church Pastor Tim Kade, 40, kicked off the first Sunday in Lent with a sermon entitled, “The Greatest Sex You’ll Ever Have.”



http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,254684,00.html

Here is the detroit news story on it:
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070226/LIFESTYLE04/702260357

and here is the church website:
http://www.epicwired.com/

What do you guys think?

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I thought the sermon that kicks off the season of Lent is always about the transfiguration of Jesus.

Nothing more then a cheap entertainment gag in my eyes

If this is what churches are going to I will not be going.

Jim, In my corner of the world, this is not the norm!!

QuiltAngel said:

Jim, In my corner of the world, this is not the norm!!

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Agreed! I just can't believe any Lutheran Minister would make a sermon around sex and the human desires

We all need law and gospil and to be told about adultry, but not sex education in church. I never quite swallowed sex ed in school, at least the way schools go about it, of couse now days they just teach safe sex so I guess sex ed is important then Heh?

My husband is a Lutheran Pastor and he had already seen this when I asked him about it. He wonders about these topics with children and young children present, as they are inappropriate for them. He says he struggles with how far to go in premarital counseling and confirmation class with the 6th commandment.

He can maybe see these as an Adult Bible Study but not really.

Well, if this Pastor was wanting people to discuss this, he sure has that happening.

This is one church where Easter will just seem, anti-climactic!

"Sorry folks, but ran out of things to say. Guess we will have to talk about Jesus."

No doubt a disciple of Rick Warren. Now we have to try and keep up.

Cheers,
Cosmic

TheCosmicGospel said:

This is one church where Easter will just seem, anti-climactic!

"Sorry folks, but ran out of things to say. Guess we will have to talk about Jesus."

No doubt a disciple of Rick Warren. Now we have to try and keep up.

Cheers,
Cosmic

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TheCosmicGospel said:

This is one church where Easter will just seem, anti-climactic!

"Sorry folks, but ran out of things to say. Guess we will have to talk about Jesus."

No doubt a disciple of Rick Warren. Now we have to try and keep up.

Cheers,
Cosmic

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Thought I was in the conservative forum

Cosmic,
If this is what we have to do to keep up, count me out! You can count my Pastor out too. I know that for a fact.

Now I suppose I should ask what he is preaching on Wednesday. Nah, I will find out soon enough. As far as Sundays in Lent, hard to say, we had to cancel Sunday due to ice and snow and strange things like that.

seajoy said:

Thought I was in the conservative forum

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Please, I am not saying "we" should. It certainly looks like "we" are trying as Epic is not just the only one following suit but for now the more extreme. More churches will follow clever marketing schemes. It is not an endorsement but a realization of how deep we have begun in this swamp.

But in a real sense, as you are part of a synod, what one member does, touches all. So the "we" in truth are doing it because they are part of "us". This is why we can't afford to roll our eyes and say "never in my church". Because if it takes place anywhere, it is happening in your church at large.

Get my drift snowflake?
Cosmic

This is why we can't afford to roll our eyes and say "never in my church". Because if it takes place anywhere, it is happening in your church at large.

Get my drift snowflake?

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While I agree with what you had to say, the last bit was a little sharp. Sarcasm can be funny and hurtful. Especially when it lands in a sharp position.

Reverand, I love the rolling, laughing smiley.

You know, over thirty years ago, I happened to go by the church my parents went to when I was little. The pastor's sermon title for the upcoming Sunday was, "Sex and Marriage". This struck me as rather racy. So the next week, on the way home from college, I went out of my way to see what the next week's sermon was going to be about. You guessed it, "The Best Sex Your Marriage Has Ever Had". Sound familliar? This nonsense has been around for a long time. The congregation I've mentioned had a brief flash of growth, and then it died again. They started at about fifty members a week, went up to two hundred, and back down to less than fifty. This church used to have an enormous congregation. The Sunday School had twenty class rooms and there were another five adult classrooms. The fellowship hall had a full stage with flyspace. They had to rent this building out to survive. So, okay, pastor Kade, you have packed the pews, now what are you going to do as a follow up to keep them there?

It saddens me to see this kind of nonsense. I thought that ELCA was the one who pulled these shenanigans. All of us in LCMS should be ashamed. After all, a little leven levens the lot. It's time to clean out the LCMS house.

If I might be so bold as to suggest that these liberal pastors; Mr Kiesnick, Mr. Stecholz, and Mr. Kade be invited to move to ELCA, where they belong?

I take issue with this statement: "In fact, this may shock you but...God wants you to have GREAT SEX."

How does this differ from the God wants you to be rich crowd? Theology of glory, etc.....
God might want us to have terrible sex, or no sex at all.

That having been said, before we line up to stone Pastor Kade, let us consider some of the things Luther has said about sex, which are quite shocking.

Luther sermon on marriage said:

I once wrote down some advice concerning such persons for those who hear confession. It related to those cases where a husband or wife comes and wants to learn what he should do: his spouse is unable to fulfil the conjugal duty, yet he cannot get along without it because he finds that God's ordinance to multiply is still in force within him. Here they have accused me of teaching that when a husband is unable to satisfy his wife's sexual desire she should run to somebody else. Let the topsy-turvy liars spread their lies. The words of Christ and his apostles were turned upside down; should they not also turn my words topsy-turvy? To whose detriment it will be they shall surely find out.
What I said was this: if a woman who is fit for marriage has a husband who is not, and she is unable openly to take unto herself another and unwilling, too, to do anything dishonourable since the pope in such a case demands without cause abundant testimony and evidence, she should say to her husband, "Look, my dear husband, you are unable to fulfil your conjugal duty toward me; you have cheated me out of my maidenhood and even imperilled my honour and my soul's salvation; in the sight of God there is no real marriage between us. Grant me the privilege of contracting a secret marriage with your brother or closest relative, and you retain the title of husband so that your property will not fall to strangers. Consent to being betrayed voluntarily by me, as you have betrayed me without my consent".
I stated further that the husband is obligated to consent to such an arrangement and thus to provide for her the conjugal duty and children, and that if he refuses to do so she should secretly flee from him to some other country and there contract a marriage. I gave this advice at a time when I was still timid. However, I should like now to give sounder advice in the matter, and take a firmer grip on the wool of a man who thus makes a fool of his wife. The same principle would apply if the circumstances were reversed, although this happens less frequently in the case of wives than of husbands. It will not do to lead one's fellow-man around by the nose so wantonly in matters of such great import involving his body, goods, honour, and salvation. He has to be told to make it right.

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http://www.warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/History/teaching/protref/women/WR0913.htm

QuiltAngel said:

Cosmic,
If this is what we have to do to keep up, count me out! You can count my Pastor out too. I know that for a fact.

Now I suppose I should ask what he is preaching on Wednesday. Nah, I will find out soon enough. As far as Sundays in Lent, hard to say, we had to cancel Sunday due to ice and snow and strange things like that.

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Our church was canceled Sunday too, due to really icy roads. I didn't even get out of the house Sunday which is sad cause I like to drive around and see the snow and ice hanging in the trees and bushes. Ahh, winter is pretty at times.

TheCosmicGospel said:

Please, I am not saying "we" should. It certainly looks like "we" are trying as Epic is not just the only one following suit but for now the more extreme. More churches will follow clever marketing schemes. It is not an endorsement but a realization of how deep we have begun in this swamp.

But in a real sense, as you are part of a synod, what one member does, touches all. So the "we" in truth are doing it because they are part of "us". This is why we can't afford to roll our eyes and say "never in my church". Because if it takes place anywhere, it is happening in your church at large.

Get my drift snowflake?
Cosmic

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I was just joking around. Sorry if I sounded too serious.

snowflake huh? Maybe just a flake .

seajoy said:

I was just joking around. Sorry if I sounded too serious.

snowflake huh? Maybe just a flake .

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You are a snowflake in the best way possible. Designed by God, unique in who you are, and very beautiful. It is easy to misread things on here because it may be hard to catch the intended tone.

May your day be filled with warmth and joy in Christ.

Cheers,
Cosmic

Tetzel said:

I take issue with this statement: "In fact, this may shock you but...God wants you to have GREAT SEX."

How does this differ from the God wants you to be rich crowd? Theology of glory, etc.....
God might want us to have terrible sex, or no sex at all.

That having been said, before we line up to stone Pastor Kade, let us consider some of the things Luther has said about sex, which are quite shocking.


http://www.warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/History/teaching/protref/women/WR0913.htm

Click to expand...

So if someone has a fridgid partner then they can go and cheat on them? Actually I think that this is probably one of those statements that Luther made that he probably changed his mind later on. In Luther's Works there are many times that he recanted his position on matters of faith after years of consideration. I don't know abouot this one and I'd have to look it up. Maybe someone else knows if he changed his position?

Just because Luther wrote this doesn't mean its scriptural. Scripture never says anything to agree with this. We are taught from scripture that we wil have to suffer many things in this life, this is just one of them.

The following scripture does not agree with this liberal belief. Read especially the last 2 verses.

1 Corinthians 7

Marriage

1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.[a] 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
12To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
15But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. 16How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
17Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. 18Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. 19Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts. 20Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him. 21Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave. 23You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. 24Brothers, each man, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation God called him to.
25Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. 26Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for you to remain as you are. 27Are you married? Do not seek a divorce. Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife. 28But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.
29What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; 30those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; 31those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.
32I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— 34and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. 35I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.
36If anyone thinks he is acting improperly toward the virgin he is engaged to, and if she is getting along in years and he feels he ought to marry, he should do as he wants. He is not sinning. They should get married. 37But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing. 38So then, he who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not marry her does even better.[b] 39A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the Lord. 40In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is—and I think that I too have the Spirit of God.