Did they get actually healed? Miraculously so?
By the same token, isn't God all powerful enough to bestow charismatic gifts today as well?
Why do you believe in healing in response to prayer but not in the gift of healing?
By the same token, isn't God all powerful enough to bestow charismatic gifts today as well?
Matthew 13:1–23
Scripture is scripture whenever it was written.
Well I haven't experienced charismatic gifts myself.
And hearsay is not convincing evidence.
Spiritual gifts are not obtained by asking. They are distributed according the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:11).
He is, but it seems he is not doing so.
It appears they ceased shortly after the apostolic age.
And if the charismatic gifts have ceased as the bible said they would, nowhere does it say they would later return.
Can you be more specific? Matthew 13:1-23 says nothing about atheists, especially atheists with a very strong understanding of philosophy, logical reasoning, science, skepticism, etc. How does Matthew 13:1-13 apply to such atheists?
Quoting Merrian-Webster dictionary's definition of "bible" is not a proof. Merrian-Webster was founded in 1831. 2 Timothy is estimated to have been written between 90 and 140 AD (source). You still need to prove that the author of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 had Merrian-Webster dictionary's definition of "bible" in mind. Otherwise, this anachronistic reference is pointless.
How do you determine what is scripture and what isn't?
How about praying to receive/experience charismatic gifts?
14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. (Mark 16:14 ESV)
Non sequitur. Yes, the gifts are distributed according to the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit, but from this it does not follow that charismatic gifts cannot be obtained by asking. Both ideas are not incompatible. There is no logical contradiction between the two. It could very well be the case that a person's free will plays a role in how the Holy Spirit decides to distribute gifts. For example, it could be the case that the Holy Spirit sovereignly decides to grant specific gifts in response to prayer (plus other considerations, which would depend on a case-by-case basis). This would be similar to the concept of synergism (i.e. some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom).
Relevant passages:
- Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy (1 Corinthians 14:1 ESV)
- So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. (1 Corinthians 14:39 ESV)
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! (Matthew 7:7-11 ESV)
29 And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, 30 while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness. (Acts 4:29-31 ESV)
I would say they fall into the category of the seed falling along the path.... "When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it....". They do not understand the gospel. For them the gospel is foolishness. "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Cor 1:18
Yes it is proof. Paul used the term 'All scripture'. The Bible is the name we give to the whole collection of scripture - ie "All scripture", the same term.
All other dictionaries give that same definition for Bible. If you think their definition is wrong, you'll have to take it up with them.
As I've already said, gifts are not given by asking.
Scripture says gifts are given to a person at conversion (1 Cor 12:7), not later in their Christian life.
I don't see anywhere that says that additional gifts can be later requested and acquired.
That passage says nothing about praying for new gifts....."grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness..."
@swordsman1 - looking forward to the next round of rebuttals
You know what, I think I'm going to leave it there. It seems to me this is becoming just a game of one-upmanship, about who trips the other person up on all sorts of different subjects - which is not good and I can't really be bothered with it to be honest.
We are not commissioned to convince atheists of the truth of God's Word or the Gospel. Our role is to declare the Gospel whether they choose to believe it or not. If we share the Gospel with atheists and they choose not to believe it, there is no failure on our part. We have done what we are commanded to do.TruthSeek3r said: ↑
You still completely ignored the main point. Why should we expect evidence that would convince an atheist for any specific miracle?
Why do we need to convince atheists of miracles? Should they accept Jesus as Lord because He does magic tricks and might do one for them?
Paul told us that Jews looked for miracles and Gentiles looked for clever philosophies, but he didn't consider either one to be the correct path to faith in Jesus.
The problem with modern application of the spiritual gifts is that there is a lot of teaching and speech-making about them, and much arguing on the threads in the forum, but not much demonstration of the true gifts. All the NAR (New Apostolic Reformation) prophets were proved wrong when none of them have been able to predict any of the significant national and world events that have occurred in the last three years. Most of the prominent healing evangelists, in spite of the preaching and promises, are unable to produce any evidence of verified healing of serious disease or disability through medical records. And the Bethel school of supernatural ministry had to close because most of the staff and students contract Covid. All the examples of tongues that I have seen by the Glory of Zion circus performers and Prosperity male and female preachers sound nothing like articulate languages to me, but rather just random, unconnected sounds copied from each other. And "word of knowledge" preachers are seen getting their information about people from social media on their iPads which they are holding. Benny Hinn, Todd White, Kenneth Copeland and Bill Johnson know that they cannot fulfill their promises of healing; that is why they avoid having serious patients and disabled folk on their stages for prayer. They divert their really sick and disabled folk to other rooms so they don't have to show the people that they can't demonstrate any real healing for them.You know what, I think I'm going to leave it there. It seems to me this is becoming just a game of one-upmanship, about who trips the other person up on all sorts of different subjects - which is not good and I can't really be bothered with it to be honest.
As you said to JAL on the other thread: "I'll take that as an admission of defeat."
I could quite easily carry on with the rebuttals, but as I said it seems to be turning into a game of one-upmanship. If you want to declare yourself the winner, that's fine by me.
I came looking for you because you might appreciate this. In the early hours of the morning I had a revelation! I was prayerfully meditating concerning the prophetic and examining what Paul said about it, and what he didn't say. I know that you don't accept that the gift of prophecy is active today, but that is not important right now.You know what, I think I'm going to leave it there. It seems to me this is becoming just a game of one-upmanship, about who trips the other person up on all sorts of different subjects - which is not good and I can't really be bothered with it to be honest.
I came looking for you because you might appreciate this. In the early hours of the morning I had a revelation! I was prayerfully meditating concerning the prophetic and examining what Paul said about it, and what he didn't say. I know that you don't accept that the gift of prophecy is active today, but that is not important right now.
I got thinking about the Kansas City Prophets who evolved into the NAR and how they have set themselves up as the five-fold ministry of NT Prophet for today. As I thought about them, it appeared to me that they were acting as "pastoral" prophets as described in 1 Corinthians 14 and that the office of NT Prophet was somehow different.
Then it came to me that John the Baptizer was a Prophet to the Jews and called them to repentance. I wondered that the NT Prophet could be someone whose office is to call the Church to repentance. We surely need someone like John the Baptizer to speak out against these false prosperity teachers and prophets who are corrupting large areas of the Church. I then viewed a sermon by David Wilkerson. Then I realised that here was a true NT Prophet calling out the Church to repent, believe the Gospel and come out from the world to walk in holiness before the Lord. I then thought of Leonard Ravenhill who wrote "Why Revival Tarries" and saw the same call for repentance. Just before I viewed Paul Washer, and he was the same. These men have convinced me that the office of NT Prophet, along with the Evangelist, Pastor and Teacher are still active in today's church. It showed me that the NAR's claim of the Prophetic office is a fraud because they are prophesying nonsense and are not fulfilling the Scriptural role of NT Prophet.
We need men of God to rise up and preach conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment to come, to bring unction in the pulpit so there is action in the pew. We need men like Elijah, and Micaiah who stood up against falsehood and idolatry even at the risk of their own lives. This is why I now believe that the NT Prophet is still active in our modern body of Christ. We badly need them if the Church is going to be the body of Christ it should be.
I agree with you that the majority of those who call themselves Prophets are nothing of the sort. All you have to do is to analyse the prophecies on Youtube to see that their prophecies are "nothing burgers" that don't say anything intelligible, especially in that gather where people are waving coloured flags and a guy who looks like Santa Claus gives a dramatic prophecy that says nothing.Although they have done a good job of calling out sin and false teaching in the Church, I wouldn't classify David Wilkerson and the others you mention as true prophets. A true prophet would be someone who hears God speak actual words in a dream or a vision (Num 12:6, Num 24:16, Isa 6:8, Ezek 1:28, Ezek 2:1-3, Isa 6:8, ) who then passes the message onto the intended recipient(s). The process is described in 1 Sam 3 when the boy Samuel started prophesying, and throughout scripture prophecies are prefixed with something like "Thus says the Lord....", followed by the precise words God spoke. If the Lord didn't really say those words then scripture is lying. And that same process is also true of NT prophecy (Acts 21:11, Acts 22:14, Rev 1:10-11). I see nowhere in scripture where prophecy is described as having a strong feeling, or an inward impression, or God laying something on your heart. You don't have to be a cessationist to see that the vast majority of supposed prophecies today do not match the biblical description of prophecy, and the tiny minority that do claim their prophecies were received audibly are no doubt deluded.
The example for me for a true NT Prophet is John the Baptizer. He never had any visions or anything mystical. He called the Jews to repentance.
I know that the OT prophets received the direct word of God in different ways. We can apply a hard and fast formula. Isaiah saw the Lord high and lifted up, Exekiel had visions, Jeremiah received the word in his heart. There is no record that Elijah or Micaiah had visions or how they received the word.
We need men of God to rise up and preach conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment to come, to bring unction in the pulpit so there is action in the pew. We need men like Elijah, and Micaiah who stood up against falsehood and idolatry even at the risk of their own lives. This is why I now believe that the NT Prophet is still active in our modern body of Christ. We badly need them if the Church is going to be the body of Christ it should be.
You obviously haven't read what Paul said: "How will they hear without a preacher, and how can someone preach unless they are sent?"Wouldn't scripture be sufficient on its own (2 Timothy 3:16-17) for the purpose you stated above?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?