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Albion said: ↑
The RCC and EO do definitely disagree with each other on a number of important doctrines.
That big whopping thing about the supremacy of the Pope -- for one.Which doctrines?
That is not a big thing, it is an organisational thing. Like Anglicans having bishops and Seventh day Adventists not.the supremacy of the Pope
That is not a big thing, it is an organisational thing. Like Anglicans having bishops and Seventh day Adventists not.
I've seen that claim before but Catholics say it is not true while pointing out that the document that makes an assertion that can be construed that way needs to be read in the context of its times when there was - in the west - only one church.Except that the RCC had a pretty firm rule about nobody being saved or included in the Body of Christ if they did not accept the supremacy of pontifex maximus -
This is a misrepresentation of the situation. Some Ukranians broke off from the Church for nationalistic reasons and went into schism, which is considered as worse than heresy because it is not rooted in error but pride. The schismatics, with the support of the national government, seized church buildings and otherwise persecuted the canonical church. This is not Orthodox vs. Orthodox but schismatics vs. Orthodox. Similarly in the Former Yugoslav Republic of 'Macedonia', the Communist government created a national 'Orthodox' Church which has persecuted the canonical Serbian Church. The so called 'Macedonian Orthodox Church' is not recognised by any other jurisdiction in the Orthodox Church. They are not in the Orthodox Church and neither are the Ukrainian schismatics, regardless of what Patriarch Bartholomew has stated. No one else recognises them and the Patriarch will eventually fall into line or risk being disciplined by the Church.The Orthodox don't have a deep love for one another - witness the current dog fight in Ukraine between Russian oriented Orthodox and the new Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
I am sure that is how you and many others see the matter but the Ukrainian Orthodox see it differently. They see themselves as self-governing and no longer under the Moscow Patriarch. Their perspective is supported by the Patriarch of Constantinople (Istanbul). Maybe they are right and you are wrong.This is a misrepresentation of the situation. Some Ukranians broke off from the Church for nationalistic reasons and went into schism
Perhaps Catholics see Orthodox as in schism. It does not appear to he helpful for people to label those who disagree with them as schismatics or heretics. Why not just note the disagreement and leave it there. The epithets don't clarify anything., which is considered as worse than heresy because it is not rooted in error but pride.
Persecuted? I imagine that Anglicans saw their seizure of Catholic properties as fully authorised by their government (King Henry VIII) and Lutherans likely say their seizure of Catholic buildings as normal and natural when the state changed religion. Why can't Ukraine do the same?The schismatics, with the support of the national government, seized church buildings and otherwise persecuted the canonical church.
This is not Orthodox vs. Orthodox but schismatics vs. Orthodox. Similarly in the Former Yugoslav Republic of 'Macedonia', the Communist government created a national 'Orthodox' Church which has persecuted the canonical Serbian Church. The so called 'Macedonian Orthodox Church' is not recognised by any other jurisdiction in the Orthodox Church. They are not in the Orthodox Church and neither are the Ukrainian schismatics, regardless of what Patriarch Bartholomew has stated. No one else recognises them and the Patriarch will eventually fall into line or risk being disciplined by the Church.
An Orthodox/Catholic discussion is interested plus they are already attacked by Protestants most of the times in the Forums.But then again, we could take almost any two denominations at random and find some areas of agreement. The RCC and EO do definitely disagree with each other on a number of important doctrines.
Still, I have observed a curious unwillingness on the part of members of both churches to criticize each other when Protestants are listening in.It might be interesting, some time, to explore the reasons for that.
I don't understand the first part of that, but I do find it strange that the Orthodox and RCC join forces when Protestants criticize one or the other of them.An Orthodox/Catholic discussion is interested plus they are already attacked by Protestants most of the times in the Forums.
With the exception of the 5 Solas, you even see Traditional Protestants defending them.I don't understand the first part of that, but I do find it strange that the Orthodox and RCC join forces when Protestants criticize one or the other of them.
It's not because there ARE no bitter disagreements on doctrinal matters existing between EO and RC...because the fact is that there certainly are.
"The Eastern Orthodox Church is opposed to the Roman Catholic doctrine of papal supremacy. While not denying that some form of primacy could exist for the Bishop of Rome, Orthodox Christians argue that the tradition of Rome's primacy in the early Church was not equivalent to the current doctrine of supremacy."
Orthodox definition of Catholicity:
"The test of authentic catholicity is adherence to the authority of the Church's Holy Tradition, and then to the witness of Sacred "Scripture", which is itself a product of the Church's aforementioned Holy Tradition. It is not defined by adherence to any particular See. It is the position of the Orthodox Church that it has never accepted the pope as de jure leader of the entire church. All bishops are equal "as Peter", therefore every church under every bishop (consecrated in apostolic succession) is fully complete (the original meaning of catholic)."
from: Eastern Orthodox opposition to papal supremacy - Wikipedia
RCC view -
Referring to the doctrine of Papal Supremacy the Catechism notes in paragraph 882, “the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered." Paragraph 937 states, “"The Pope enjoys, by divine institution, 'supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls.'”
from Papal Supremacy in the Bible and Church Fathers
So then apparently -- two different denominations with different views on some doctrines.
Some very interesting details surface in the thread where this is posted
Listen carefully to the video from 1:13:00 to 1:15:00
Constantine is a stock bogeyman for anti-romanist zealots.I never understood what Constantine has to do with deciding who has supreme authority over the church. He was the Emperor of Rome not the Emperor of the church.
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