Obsessed with "manliness" and being a "real man"

[BlackSabb]

Hi everyone. All of my life I have been obsessed with being a "real man" and "manliness". I am always afraid to show any softer, gentler side of myself in public for fear of ridicule, and I am especially afraid of being labelled a "woman" or "girl".

Sorry ladies if that offends, but I'm just speaking the truth.

I'm not gay or confused about my sexual identity or anything like that. But I have this obsession of measuring my worth against other men. To me, a man is defined by his strength, his position in society, ability to provide for his family, be successful etc.

Again, I'm not poor or uneducated and am doing well, thank you very much. But in my mind, I can always be more successful, more manly, more prosperous etc. I seem to never escape this cycle, it's with me always.

I take pride in some of my things for their "manliness". Like my V8 car, whisky collection, hard rock music etc. And I know this will sound kind of sick, but my wife has been chronically ill for years now and barely manages around the home. And as I'm supporting her fully, I take some sort of perverse pride in that, feeling like a "man" that I'm the sole breadwinner. I know that sounds stupid but that's the way it is.

And I feel really uncomfortable with anything that's not quite "manly". I'm one of those less common males that love cats over dogs. I have 3 in fact, and adopted 2 stray ones that were abandoned and wondered into our home. But I'm embarressed in front of others that I love cats, being a guy. In fact, one female pastor once gave me this look of contempt and tell me to my face that I was "weird" because I loved cats!

And I'm not making that up. The other day, I was watching this really cute youtube video of this cat that was rearing orphaned squirrels, along with its own kittens. It was adorable, but the introduction to the video read:

"If there are any men, look away now. This video features kittens and squirrels".

I felt a bit bad watching the video after reading that introduction but I did, and then I played the video to my wife. She adored it, and then jokingly commented how I'm one of those odd guys that loves cats and squirrels. And even though it was a joke, I took it to heart, feeling like a wuss. And yet sometimes I use a type of alternative scenario to make it alright in my own mind to like something. A great example are the cats I was telling you about. Instead of being cute and furry and slinky and graceful, I say to myself that I love cats because of their retractable claws, their long fangs and their ferociousness. I remember another guy once telling me that cats are one of the most ferocious animals for their size and that just put a smile on my face.

I just thought I had the perfect comeback to anyone in case they accused me of being a girl beause I liked cats. In fact, my youth pastor used to make a bit of fun at me for liking cats and my only recourse was to say that the king of the jungle was a cat-a large one for sure, but still a cat. The only way I made it acceptable was to emphasise the killing and vicious nature of the creature to make it alright for a guy to like.

I am completely stuffed when it comes to squirrels though!

A couple of years ago, I was perousing the Sunday newspapers and there was this small challenge in a magazine contained within. You had 4 pictures of people and 4 pictures of their pets and you had to guess which pet matched up with which person. There was a sports person, a television person, an actor and a male ballet dancer. And there were 3 dogs and I cat. Yeah, you could imagine how crap I felt when I looked up the answers in the back and found that male ballet dancer had the cat.

"Nice one BlackSabb. You're in great company" I thought.

I've posted this on CF before, but for the last decade I've been battling circulation problems in my legs causing painful cramping. A rheumatologist I saw many years ago told me I had a genetic predisposition to this condition and told me the most effective thing for me was to keep warm. Which is quite difficult even with a number of layers as the blood vessels on the outside of my legs near the skin contract more than normal and go excessively cold.

Years ago, my wife suggested I try some ordinary thick ladies tights instead of the uncomfortable layers of tracksuit pants, pyjama bottoms, 2 pairs of socks etc. I was dead against that for a long time, but after continuing bouts of cramping and excessive cold, I succumbed to the suggestion. Ironically, she doesn't even wear herself, so I don't really know what made her think of it for me.

And yes I found them far better and warmer than the other layers I was bulking up with. But the feeling of being a complete worthless effeminate wuss took a hold over me. And if I'm being really truthful to you, I'll even admit that I found them rather comfortable to wear. And that was the final clincher for me at which I said no more.

This is an aspect of my life that just about consumes me. Another example. I was making small chat during the day at work with a new employee, but he was barely responding. I asked him "what's wrong-you're not talking?" and his reply was:

"Why do we need to chat? We're men, we don't chat like women, we just do our jobs".

Well, yeah you could imagine how I felt. Another episode in the life of a lesser man such as myself.

So I'm wondering is there anyone that can shed some light why some men are obsessed with being a real "man" and with "manliness?" I'm just so very tired of feeling I have to keep up a facade. And many times I'm feeling mentally drained from it all.

Thanks.


P.S. My wife has been telling me for years literally that I need some sort of hobby. Well finally I have got onel, and that is collecting fine single malt Scotch whisky. I'm really enjoying tasting all the unique flavours of these drinks and they make a really cool display in our lounge room. When I've chatted to other guys online in other forum sites, they've said that whisky has a reputation of being an older mans drink. Which bizarrely put a smile on my face.

But before I found this hobby, my wife wanted me to try some..............wait for it.............KNITTING!!!!


Aaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.............................................................

 

[Mr.Cheese]

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[visionary]

They know how to get your goat... they know your weakness.. to "do" the manly thing. It is like waving a red flag by saying "chicken" to some other guys. This is your trigger, and they know it. I say.. blow it up your azz... to them all... and wear them tights like a man.

 

[UnitynLove]

Check this out YouTube - TogetherInWorship's Channel

 

[unkern]

The only true manliness is based on the word of the Lord, not the word of man.

Lol, I used to be a bodybuilder and Now im in the Army, but I like to sow, I can cook, I like G rated family movies, I love working with children, I sometimes listen to Rock and I sometimes listen to People like Bjork. I own 2 cars: a hyundai accent with hybiscus flowers in two windows and I have a souped up Chevy cobalt with racing stripes and hood scoops, my favorite to drive is the accent.

Did you know that most womans products were created by men, that the Egyptian men used to wear make-up, that the Romans haircuts were considered girly to other countries?

 

[jupiterinka]

I hope you don't mind my posting here. But, have you examined the reasons behind why you feel the need to be so "manly" and "masculine?" Try not to beat yourself up if you do something that feels effeminate (or if others say it's not manly). I know society puts a lot of pressure on men to be masculine, but from a woman's perspective, I think that's a sad state of our culture. Everyone (man or woman) has emotions and should be able to develop whatever talents or hobbies they are interested in. I personally like to know that my husband has feelings, and I like when he communicates these with me. It's good to know he has a heart.

 

[BlessEwe]

Hey a Man colors and styles my hair! And he does a great job too, he really listens. He has a wife and 3 boys. I have found friendships with men to be easier, maybe because I tend to lead on the Tom Boy side, and Thank you God 4 my 2 boys.
Just because you have small kitties and not the big tigers really doesn't mean a thing..lol Look at Sigmund and
Froad ( wrong spell ).
Cracks me up too ,how these real bad looking men act all tuff and ruff around each other. And then at home with the wife its a different story ( at least mine does.... LOL

Nah your normal!

 

[Hentenza]

BlackSabb,

There is nothing wrong with knitting, or wearing the hoses that your wife suggested (they help your condition). It seems to me that you are more worried about outward appearances than the actual issue. That you are a man only you can deny. That you are manly only you can deny. The opinion of the Joneses next door is of no consequence. What you and Lord know is what is important.

Go buy yourself a couple of pink shirts (I own 4) and wear them proudly. There is nothing wrong with a man showing his "feminine" side. We all have it. There is no reason to suppress it. It makes you whole.

Here is a funny story. I am blessed to have my 4 granddaughters most of the work week. I own my business and can help my daughter. I also own a 08 Ford F250 diesel long bed 4 wheel drive. It's black and is as manly a truck as anyone can own. People look at me funny when out of this 'manly" truck come out 4 beautiful little girls (from 18 months to 6 years old). I've had some folks laugh and say that the truck is my reminder of my testosterone. lol!!!! I just laugh cause I know that not to be true. It makes no difference to me what people think and it should not make any difference to you either. Be who you are, not what people want you to be. The only one you have to truly please in this life is the Lord.

 

[BlackSabb]

BlackSabb,

There is nothing wrong with knitting, or wearing the hoses that your wife suggested (they help your condition). It seems to me that you are more worried about outward appearances than the actual issue. That you are a man only you can deny. That you are manly only you can deny. The opinion of the Joneses next door is of no consequence. What you and Lord know is what is important.

Go buy yourself a couple of pink shirts (I own 4) and wear them proudly. There is nothing wrong with a man showing his "feminine" side. We all have it. There is no reason to suppress it. It makes you whole.

Here is a funny story. I am blessed to have my 4 granddaughters most of the work week. I own my business and can help my daughter. I also own a 08 Ford F250 diesel long bed 4 wheel drive. It's black and is as manly a truck as anyone can own. People look at me funny when out of this 'manly" truck come out 4 beautiful little girls (from 18 months to 6 years old). I've had some folks laugh and say that the truck is my reminder of my testosterone. lol!!!! I just laugh cause I know that not to be true. It makes no difference to me what people think and it should not make any difference to you either. Be who you are, not what people want you to be. The only one you have to truly please in this life is the Lord.

Hey thanks to you and everyone else that replied. I really appreciated it. I've quoted this particular post because it illustrates an important observation I've noticed.


That it's perfectly okay for women to be seen in traditionally mens domains. Whether they are running around in big, brutish Ford pickups, a cowgirl, tradesperson etc. When women are seen doing things that are traditionally the domain of men, they are applauded. It's as if they are elevated because they can do something a "man" does.

But it's not the other way around. When men do things that are considered traditionally womens, they are often scorned. Even today in the 21st century, male nurses and flight attendants are not accepted in our society. Or male child carers, florists, hairdressers etc. Let alone male ballet dancers.

I'm not a wussy, soft and dainty male by any means. I love the things I love and most of them happen to be in agreement with "manly" things, so don't get me wrong. What I really don't like is that there are very few choices for men. Everything has to be rough and tough. And I like that sort of stuff. But I like other things too. That's all I'm saying, and as a male you don't have the luxury of indulging that.

I remember once reading in a magazine about women expressing their opinions about why they like being women. And one women hit the nail on the head perfectly. She said that she loved being a woman because she could run around in overalls during the day, working around the house or on the car, and then dress up in soft, feminine things afterwards. And no one thinks any less of her, unlike men that are constricted to just everything being hard, rough, tough etc.

I don't want to be a woman or be dainty. But I feel the constant urge to justify myself as a "man" by my work, income, status, profession, hobbies and activities etc. And sometimes I hate it. I like most hardy, rough and tumble things. But it would be nice to be able to like a few other things too. That is all I'm saying.

And btw, here's that video that I adored. I made an error, it wasn't the video of cats and squirrels with the description of "men, look away", but another video I watched. Of a cat adopting an orphaned rabbit.

It'll be our little secret, between all you lovely people and myself. Here is the video. And here is what the description to the video says:

"Would the men please look away now - it's a video about a cat adopting a teeny-weeny baby rabbit. Awwwww. "


*sigh*





[youtube]04RZrf3-Mgo&feature=fvw[/youtube]


And here's the cat and squirrels video:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADuSnt6PFn8

 

[Lucis]

Whats wrong with male ballet dancers, nurses, florists, hairdressers etc? And whats wrong with liking cats and squirrels and bunnies? Seems like you think that if a man got empathy or creativity, then he is a not a man. That is not very nice to say.

Personally I would love working with flowers. I've always been creative. And I feel great pleasure in living things, and all the colors and beauty in that. Gardeners and florists also seem to be calm and friendly and in places like that life seem to be very chilled out with little stress. I know the stupid stereotypical views about it though. I told my father that I would like working as a florist, but strangely enough, even if I haven't been working for a long time, still he seemed to want to talk me out of it. I could understand by the tone of his voice and his facial expressions that he thought I was gay or something, because I like flowers. I've often picked wild flowers in the summers to keep in a vase inside, and i have lots of potted plants that I treat like babies, always trying to make them be healthy.

And I love animals. Kittens and bunnies and all sort of small, furry animals makes me soft inside. I've always been like that. Like once when I was a kid my mother was looking for me for a long time and then she found me sitting in the top of a tree chewing on a pine cone, and telling her that I couldn't answer her, cause I was a squirrel and squirrels don't talk. I've had two cats that gave birth in my bed, when I was sleeping, I guess they felt safe near me. And I remember bringing in a baby hedgehog once, and giving it cream and snails, feeding it up before letting it go again. Can't see anything wrong in having empathy with animals.

Here is a nice video of a big squirrel that tries to help a baby squirrel over a wall:

YouTube - Try to do

I love stuff like that. Gives me a warm heart.

So seriously, don't care about stupid stereotypes, just be yourself. And if you like stuff like knitting, then: so what? Knock yourself out. I never managed to learn it myself, but you can probably make useful stuff with it, like warm clothes for your children, and save a bit of money on it.

 

[visionary]

Yeshua would have no problems with all things of nature and the care of them. He would be the veternarian of animals, the gardener of eden, the soft heart to the orphans and widows and broken hearted. Stand up for your right to be who you are... You seem more concerned with what others think.. where is your inner strength and peace? Get that and then the world will not bother you.

 

[Joachim]

I have found that if you are into a few things that are ultra manly, like say football or hunting, you will often get a pass for the less manly attributes of the character.

 

[unkern]

well here something to look at Blacksabb instead of looking at everything as manly or womanly you should look at everything as functional and non-functional. for example in the Army it is good to know how to sow because you can patch up cloths, saving money and time, you can sow up wounds. Its good to know how to cook because the obvious you can feed yourself. In general life working with children shows you how to raise your children up right.

Some men would even say that dancing is for women, but it was actually created by warriors to show off their skills.

 

[BlackSabb]

I have found that if you are into a few things that are ultra manly, like say football or hunting, you will often get a pass for the less manly attributes of the character.

Firstly, Lucis, great post and video. I loved it!!! It cracked me up. And Joachim, let me say this in regards to your comment:

That is absolutely spot on dude!!!!!!!

THat is an brilliant remark and so very true. I have found that being male is like a bank account, and if you have some money in the bank account in the end, then you're okay.

Everything "manly" is money in the bank and everything "feminine" is money out of the bank. In other words, a man can legitimately have a "feminine" thing or two if he has lots of other "manly" attributes to make up for it. And then it's okay.

This is most probably the reason why here in Australia, you see our rugby leage (football) players wearing tights for training, especially in the winter. Or those professional wrestlers, jockeys etc. When you do a sport that's hard and tough, dangerous etc then you can get away with it. No one ever makes fun of sports men for that.

But when you're dancing (ballet) you can't and are subject to ridicule.

So yeah, great observation!

 

[MyHeroIsJesus]

I do not agree with some of the opinions given, real men/women love Jesus and want to be like Jesus. The only way to become a real man/woman is through a relationship with Jesus.

Get into the Word and learn more about the greatest love story ever written.

Oh, and visit this site for more on true Biblical manhood and womanhood.
CBMW

 

[BlackSabb]

Well thanks everyone for your kind replies and encouragement. It's given me a few things to think about. I'm feeling a little less self conscious and am trying to move forward without being so preoccupied by everone else.

It's just our human nature. Some of us are more predisposed to it than others though.

 

[BlackSabb]

I hope you don't mind my posting here. But, have you examined the reasons behind why you feel the need to be so "manly" and "masculine?" Try not to beat yourself up if you do something that feels effeminate (or if others say it's not manly). I know society puts a lot of pressure on men to be masculine, but from a woman's perspective, I think that's a sad state of our culture. Everyone (man or woman) has emotions and should be able to develop whatever talents or hobbies they are interested in. I personally like to know that my husband has feelings, and I like when he communicates these with me. It's good to know he has a heart.

Hey thanks for the reply and to everyone else. You've all being kind. That is a really good question:

"Why do I feel the need to be so manly/masculine?"

I've thought long and hard about this. And it's a couple of things. Firstly, I've realised that when men fail, they fail to be "men". When women fail, they don't fail as "women"-they only fail as individuals.

What I mean is, when men aren't successful, providing for their families, not strong, rough and tough, most people see them as not being "real men". And I've had instilled in me all my life about being a "real man", and what that means. Friends, family, school etc have all reinforced that.

When a woman is unsuccessful, poor etc, no one says she's not a "real woman". They just say she (the individual) hasn't done well. She has not failed her gender however, unlike men. Look at the term "loser" and "drop kick" for eg. That mainly applies to men. Exceptionally few women are called losers.

And secondly, men are scorned by other men unlike women. I've seen countless examples of it. I overheard a conversation only recently where one guy was the butt of jokes because he goes to costume parties a lot and enjoys dressing in medieval outfits or as a woman. The term "gay" was thrown around. Even though I know the guy is not gay.

If a man is outwardly emotional, that is enough for him to be called sissy, (thankfully that is not me). But it does remind me of a very funny Simpon's sketch I saw once. The Simpsons were doing a parody of the Will Smith movie "I, Robot". And Homer ordered a humanoind robot to replace his troublesome son Bart. And Bart was taken to a forest and abandoned by Homer. Bart comes across all these functional buy faulty robots and befriends them. And one of the robots asks Bart:

"Are you a robot?"

And Bart says that he's a human, not a robot. Then the robot asks Bart:

"What's it like to have feelings?"

And Bart answers with this absolute classic line:

"I SAID I'M A HUMAN, NOT A GIRL!"

I absolutely cracked up laughing but I also thought how spot on and poignant that comment was. The simple fact of our society is that if you want to denigrate a man, call him a woman! Such terms as you're a woman, girl, big girl, a p**sy etc. Just look at how many derogatory things are labelled by feminine terms. Things such as "chick flick", "girls car" etc.

To me, there is no worse criticism as a male than being "unmanly" or a "loser" or "effeminate" etc. I would rather be criticised as hard hearted and ruthless than those. And as I said, I'm not doing poorly by any means and fully support my wife. I simply feel that it's such things that makes me feel like I'm being a "man".

Even in my occupation I feel it, ironically when I'm doing the best I've ever done in my life. I started out working as a security officer and now work in the health field. And I get regular comments from inlaws about how I've "improved myself" and "look where I am today" and that I've "made something of myself".

And there's nothing wrong with advancing in career and prospects. But comments make me feel like I was a "nothing" before.

 

[Johnnz]

Don't get influenced by stereotypes. Many men are sensitive, caring non macho types. Relax and be who you are.

John
NZ

 

[myanchor]

BlackSabb, when guys give you some stuff about your manliness, do this, make the boy scout salute, then turn the back of your hand to them and say read between the lines. My son who is a former marine tries that junk on me and when I do that he just smirks or laughs and goes on.

 

[shye]

lol I LOVE cats... and im a man -gasp- but seriously I think a true man isn't scared of being himself around other men, and if other men have a problem of what your likes are then they are the ones that have the problems not you. for me I kind of find it amusing being a little different from the other guys.... plus girls enjoy a guy that has a sensitive side to them ~_^ (just not TOO sensitive, which seems like you are not) so be who you are don't be scared to show your colors because people like to be around people who act themselfs and not just follow the clique.

I also have a few clips of cats on youtube that i saved as my favs

YouTube - ?????????? - Stalking Cat -


YouTube - Cutest Kitten Ever


YouTube - Kitten playing with Great Dane


YouTube - Moj kot lubi wod? / My crazy cat, loves water, Kenny Glenn