Observations : Create Your Own God

MotherFirefly · May 23, 2016

FrumiousBandersnatch said:
What you're describing is called escapism, taking comfort in imaginary figments. I guess we all do it to some extent, but even trekkies know the difference between their escapism and real life.
What's to fear? it's just the cycle of life; we happen to be the fortunate survivors of billions of years of evolution, and to be able give meaning to the time we have; and we have more power than ever before to effect our goals, long term or short term, whatever we decide them to be. To spend this opportunity chasing figments seems perverse.
I can understand the attraction of a father and/or authority figure (although it has caused a lot of trouble through history), but this deep a need for an imaginary father to be the focus of meaning and purpose, and distract from fear of pointlessness, seems somehow rather immature and sad... What proportion of Christians do you suppose feel this way?

Don't worry, friend. I have spent years speculating and 'debunking' God and everything. Lots of 'until the sun comes up' conversations about 'proving' it is an absurd theory.

Yet here I am.

Also, I have met and/or known many who see religion as a crutch. Pretty sure that is the majority of members. Afterall, if your loved one dies, what better way to get over it than to tell yourself she is in a better place?
Not saying it is a right or wrong mentality, but it is there nonetheless.

FireDragon76 · May 24, 2016

Saying religion is a crutch sounds so arrogant, the implication is that people who are religious should be despised as weak. As if any human being can escape the hard realities of life. Everybody is going to face death, and if they live long enough, illness and loss.

FrumiousBandersnatch · May 24, 2016

ScottA said:
I would venture to say, that it's probably the same group that says they are not afraid when being shot at.

Hmm... I would be terrified if shot at, but I don't feel a need for a father or authority figure.

FrumiousBandersnatch · May 24, 2016

BriannaRose said:
Also, I have met and/or known many who see religion as a crutch. Pretty sure that is the majority of members. Afterall, if your loved one dies, what better way to get over it than to tell yourself she is in a better place?
Not saying it is a right or wrong mentality, but it is there nonetheless.

I can understand the appeal of that view during the emotional extremes of grief, but once over it, to continue would be deliberate self-deception.

ToddNotTodd · May 24, 2016

FireDragon76 said:
Saying religion is a crutch sounds so arrogant, the implication is that people who are religious should be despised as weak. As if any human being can escape the hard realities of life. Everybody is going to face death, and if they live long enough, illness and loss.

Do you despise people who are weak? That sounds like a terrible position to take. I also believe that people use religion as a coping mechanism, but I would never despise them for being "weak".

FrumiousBandersnatch · May 24, 2016

FireDragon76 said:
I think you should check your privilege. You find the spiritual quest perverse because you sit on top of a heap of material prosperity. But most human beings do not.

By 'we', I was speaking of humanity in general. I'm well aware that an unconscionably large proportion of people have desperate and miserable lives; it is within humanity's capability to remedy that, if we can leverage the more beneficent aspects of our evolutionary heritage to quell the more selfish ones.

MotherFirefly · May 24, 2016

FireDragon76 said:
Saying religion is a crutch sounds so arrogant, the implication is that people who are religious should be despised as weak. As if any human being can escape the hard realities of life. Everybody is going to face death, and if they live long enough, illness and loss.

I'm not implying that at all, but it can't be denied that people do in fact use it as a crutch. Whether that is healthy or not largely depends on the individual and their circumstances.

MotherFirefly · May 24, 2016

FrumiousBandersnatch said:
I can understand the appeal of that view during the emotional extremes of grief, but once over it, to continue would be deliberate self-deception.

I agree.

ScottA · May 24, 2016

FrumiousBandersnatch said:
Hmm... I would be terrified if shot at, but I don't feel a need for a father or authority figure.

There are different ways people deal with denial. I was addressing that one form of defiance. You may be acting on another, like the person who swears they don't need a doctor...until they are flat on their back. But, in that case, you will not even see it at this point...but you will remember this when it happens.

FireDragon76 · May 24, 2016

BriannaRose said:
I'm not implying that at all, but it can't be denied that people do in fact use it as a crutch. Whether that is healthy or not largely depends on the individual and their circumstances.

I didn't necessarily direct that comment to you.

I think there is a tendency among some atheists to dehumanize those with religious beliefs. This is particularly evident in Sam Harris' logic that certain peoples religious beliefs are so dangerous, that they should be killed merely for having them.

FireDragon76 · May 24, 2016

BriannaRose said:
Afterall, if your loved one dies, what better way to get over it than to tell yourself she is in a better place?.

I don't think people just "get over loss" with trite answers like that. I've known religious people and they still grieve like everybody else. But their grief is contained by hope.

MotherFirefly · May 24, 2016

FireDragon76 said:
I didn't necessarily direct that comment to you.

I think there is a tendency among some atheists to dehumanize those with religious beliefs. This is particularly evident in Sam Harris' logic that certain peoples religious beliefs are so dangerous, that they should be killed merely for having them.

That seems a bit drastic.

ToddNotTodd · May 24, 2016

FireDragon76 said:
I think there is a tendency among some atheists to dehumanize those with religious beliefs. This is particularly evident in Sam Harris' logic that certain peoples religious beliefs are so dangerous, that they should be killed merely for having them.

Beliefs aren't dangerous. Acting on beliefs can be dangerous. I don't "demonize" a particular religion, but I might "demonize" a murderer.

FireDragon76 · May 24, 2016

BriannaRose said:
That seems a bit drastic.

As someone familiar with the Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition, it doesn't surprise me though. The Marxist-Leninists in Russia had a similar attitude at various times to various degrees.... even death squads that killed priests if they wouldn't deny God's existence.

FrumiousBandersnatch · May 24, 2016

FireDragon76 said:
I think there is a tendency among some atheists to dehumanize those with religious beliefs.

It cuts both ways - some religious dehumanize atheists; some go as far as to dehumanize everyone who doesn't believe what they do.

This is particularly evident in Sam Harris' logic that certain peoples religious beliefs are so dangerous, that they should be killed merely for having them.

I think what he said has been taken out of context - it's not so much the fact that it's a religious belief, but that it's an exceptionally dangerous belief that is acted upon with extraordinary violence.

Here's what he said, in context:

Sam Harris in 'The End of Faith' p52-53 said:
The power that belief has over our emotional lives appears to be total. For every emotion that you are capable of feeling, there is surely a belief that could invoke it in a matter of moments. Consider the following proposition:

Your daughter is being slowly tortured in an English jail.

What is it that stands between you and the absolute panic that such a proposition would loose in the mind and body of a person who believed it? Perhaps you do not have a daughter, or you know her to be safely at home, or you believe that English jailors are renowned for their congeniality. Whatever the reason, the door to belief has not yet swung upon its hinges.

The link between belief and behaviour raises the stakes considerably. Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them. This may seem an extraordinary claim, but it merely enunciates an ordinary fact about the world in which we live. Certain beliefs place their adherents beyond the reach of every peaceful means of persuasion, while inspiring them to commit acts of extraordinary violence against others. There is, in fact, no talking to some people. If they cannot be captured, and they often cannot, otherwise tolerant people may be justified in killing them in self-defense. This is what the United States attempted in Afghanistan, and it is what we and other Western powers are bound to attempt, at an even greater cost to ourselves and to innocents abroad, elsewhere in the Muslim world. We will continue to spill blood in what is, at bottom, a war of ideas. (The End of Faith, p52-53.)

FrumiousBandersnatch · May 24, 2016

ScottA said:
There are different ways people deal with denial. I was addressing that one form of defiance. You may be acting on another, like the person who swears they don't need a doctor...until they are flat on their back. But, in that case, you will not even see it at this point...but you will remember this when it happens.

That's not really the same thing at all - more of a 'no atheists in foxholes' argument; I thought we were talking about people living their lives in self-deception. It's possible I may eventually experience something that changes my worldview, but I can only speak for how I feel now and how I've felt for many years.

FireDragon76 · May 24, 2016

Belief doesn't necessarily lead to behavior, that discounts the possibility of self-deception and our ability to rationalize our behavior to suit our selves. Think of all those mega-church pastors having hidden sexual scandals. They ordinarily believe such things are wrong, but they act contrary to that because they believe they are different.

Sam Harris should focus more on politics and less on religion. Al-Qaeda is much more a product of the neo-conservative worldview he endorses than he cares to admit.

FrumiousBandersnatch · May 24, 2016

FireDragon76 said:
Belief doesn't necessarily lead to behavior...

Harris was explicitly addressing belief that does lead to behaviour - and specifically, extraordinary violence.

ScottA · May 24, 2016

FrumiousBandersnatch said:
That's not really the same thing at all - more of a 'no atheists in foxholes' argument; I thought we were talking about people living their lives in self-deception. It's possible I may eventually experience something that changes my worldview, but I can only speak for how I feel now and how I've felt for many years.

My apologies, it seemed like you were backing into a defensive position, my mistake. So, sorry, let's continue.

As it turns out, for those who have passed through the place where you now are, the would-be deception or illusion...is the world itself, the very thing that we once put our confidence in. Thus, Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world."

All of "creation" then, is seen in a different light, like a period of gestation - temporal, only to be discarded like placenta at new birth.

FrumiousBandersnatch · May 24, 2016

ScottA said:
My apologies, it seemed like you were backing into a defensive position, my mistake. So, sorry, let's continue.

No problem.

As it turns out, for those who have passed through the place where you now are, the would-be deception or illusion...is the world itself, the very thing that we once put our confidence in. Thus, Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world."

It's easy enough to make claims, not so easy to substantiate them. Illusion or no, I'll take the palpable and consistent appearance of objective reality over what is, no offence, just another unsubstantiated claim of the undefinable ineffable.

All of "creation" then, is seen in a different light, like a period of gestation - temporal, only to be discarded like placenta at new birth.

So the story goes...

Observations : Create Your Own God

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