Observations About Free-willian Bible Interpretation And Free-willian Writings

[Kermos]

freegrace2


What about this one 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Praise God! 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is an excellent verse, Brightfame52, about God's exclusive dominion in the salvation of man to proclaim to @FreeGrace2 !

The passage goes along with Ephesians 1:3-6.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Praise God! 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is an excellent verse, Brightfame52, about God's exclusive dominion in the salvation of man to proclaim to @FreeGrace2 !

The passage goes along with Ephesians 1:3-6.

I LOVE 2Thess 2:13.

Those who do some research for the Greek words realize that the word for "chose" isn't related to the Greek words translated "elected". That word is "ekloge".

The word in 2 Thess 2:13 is "haireomai".

So, Paul was NOT referring to election in 2 Thess 2:13.

But, nice try.

 

[Brightfame52]

I LOVE 2Thess 2:13.

Those who do some research for the Greek words realize that the word for "chose" isn't related to the Greek words translated "elected". That word is "ekloge".

The word in 2 Thess 2:13 is "haireomai".

So, Paul was NOT referring to election in 2 Thess 2:13.

But, nice try.

Doesnt matter, the greek word still means to choose, to lay hold of as in personal choice.

Its the connotation as when its written in Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Both words haireō and eklegomai are in the middle voice and denotes God choosing for Himself, and both are in reference to Sallvation, so you shot yourself in the foot sir !

 

[FreeGrace2]

Doesnt matter, the greek word still means to choose, to lay hold of as in personal choice.

First, every word in the Bible MATTERS, so don't blow off what you don't know or want to know.

Second, the Greek word is NOT the "election" word in all the verses where election is to service.

Third, you are simply failing to understand what Paul was saying.

Its the connotation as when its written in Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Again, this verse has NO "connotation" with Eph 1:4. In fact, very DIFFERENT WORDS are used in each verse, as I've been trying to get you to comprehend.

What is clear in Eph 1 is that v.4 says that God chose US (believers). So this election is of those who are ALREADY SAVED.

Now, let's actually examine what Paul was communicating in 2 Thess 2:13.

But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

So, the red words say that "God chose you to be saved"

The blue words refer to the HOW of salvation, which is though The Spirit's work and belief in the truth.

So in this verse, Paul is teaching that God CHOSE the means of HOW a person is saved, which is through faith.

And we see this exact SAME PRINCIPLE from Paul in 1 Cor 1:21.

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

It could not be more clear. God is pleased to save those who believe. This directly aligns with 2 Thess 2:13.

For Paul to say that God was pleased means that it was His choice to save those who believe.

For it makes no sense to say that what God was pleased to so (save believers) wasn't a choice of God. Of course it was.

Both words haireō and eklegomai are in the middle voice and denotes God choosing for Himself, and both are in reference to Sallvation, so you shot yourself in the foot sir !

Wrong. Eph 1:4 says nothing about salvation, and DOES say the purpose of election in that verse is for the US (believers) to be holy and blameless. This is service to God, not salvation, as you falsely believe.

In fact, Paul made clear that believers are commanded to be holy and blameless, so one CANNOT try to make the claim that "to be holy and blameless" refers to being saved.

Eph 5:27 - and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

It is clear that "a radiant church" refers ONLY to saved people. And God wants to present her (the radiant church, or believers) as holy and blameless.

And Paul in 1:4 said that God chose believers to be holy and blameless.

Because that's the ONLY WAY God can present her (the church) as holy and blameless.

 

[Brightfame52]

First, every word in the Bible MATTERS, so don't blow off what you don't know or want to know.

Second, the Greek word is NOT the "election" word in all the verses where election is to service.

Third, you are simply failing to understand what Paul was saying.


Again, this verse has NO "connotation" with Eph 1:4. In fact, very DIFFERENT WORDS are used in each verse, as I've been trying to get you to comprehend.

What is clear in Eph 1 is that v.4 says that God chose US (believers). So this election is of those who are ALREADY SAVED.

Now, let's actually examine what Paul was communicating in 2 Thess 2:13.

But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

So, the red words say that "God chose you to be saved"

The blue words refer to the HOW of salvation, which is though The Spirit's work and belief in the truth.

So in this verse, Paul is teaching that God CHOSE the means of HOW a person is saved, which is through faith.

And we see this exact SAME PRINCIPLE from Paul in 1 Cor 1:21.

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

It could not be more clear. God is pleased to save those who believe. This directly aligns with 2 Thess 2:13.

For Paul to say that God was pleased means that it was His choice to save those who believe.

For it makes no sense to say that what God was pleased to so (save believers) wasn't a choice of God. Of course it was.


Wrong. Eph 1:4 says nothing about salvation, and DOES say the purpose of election in that verse is for the US (believers) to be holy and blameless. This is service to God, not salvation, as you falsely believe.

In fact, Paul made clear that believers are commanded to be holy and blameless, so one CANNOT try to make the claim that "to be holy and blameless" refers to being saved.

Eph 5:27 - and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

It is clear that "a radiant church" refers ONLY to saved people. And God wants to present her (the radiant church, or believers) as holy and blameless.

And Paul in 1:4 said that God chose believers to be holy and blameless.

Because that's the ONLY WAY God can present her (the church) as holy and blameless.

Sure Eph 1:4 is in reference to Salvation, thats the whole context Eph 1:4,13

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Its the same context chosen is in 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The different words dont change anything, no more so than saying One has a brand new car vs One saying I have a brand new automobile.

You shot yourself in the foot. There are clear verses of scripture denoting election unto Salvation !

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sure Eph 1:4 is in reference to Salvation, thats the whole context Eph 1:4,13

Wrong. You've had the explanation of the verse. I PROVED that 1:4 is about God choosing believers to be holy and blameless.

Nothing in that verse about salvation.

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

See? I told you so.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Here, Paul is reminding believers that through faith, they were sealed with the Holy Spirit. btw, the gospel is about salvation.

But NEITHER v.4 or v.13 mentions being chosen to salvation.

Its the same context chosen is in 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It seems you have eyes that do not see and ears that do not hear. I cannot help you.

The different words dont change anything

OK, so you claim that words don't matter. That's obvious from what you post.

You just keep making up stuff.

There are clear verses of scripture denoting election unto Salvation !

Well, it would be nice IF IF IF you would share them.

You keep claiming that but you have shared zero verses.

 

[Brightfame52]

Wrong. You've had the explanation of the verse. I PROVED that 1:4 is about God choosing believers to be holy and blameless.

Nothing in that verse about salvation.

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

See? I told you so.


Here, Paul is reminding believers that through faith, they were sealed with the Holy Spirit. btw, the gospel is about salvation.

But NEITHER v.4 or v.13 mentions being chosen to salvation.


It seems you have eyes that do not see and ears that do not hear. I cannot help you.


OK, so you claim that words don't matter. That's obvious from what you post.

You just keep making up stuff.


Well, it would be nice IF IF IF you would share them.

You keep claiming that but you have shared zero verses.

You have been running around challenging people that there's nothing in scripture equating election with Salvation. That's so unwise, You have scripture like 2 These 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[FreeGrace2]

You have been running around challenging people that there's nothing in scripture equating election with Salvation

Yes I have. If election is to salvation, there would be verses that specifically state that.

That's so unwise

No, it is wise. Because NO ONE can provide any such verse.

You have scripture like 2 These 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Didn't you read my response to this verse in my previous post. Well, that's on you.

It's not a difficult verse. What Paul is saying here is rather clear.

What God has chosen is the MEANS or METHOD of salvation. Which is "through sanctification/belief of the truth".

It seems you are having a great deal of difficulty understanding the wording.

First, the word for chosen isn't the word translated elected elsewhere. If it were, then you'd have a point. But as it is, you have none at all.

Second, what God has chosen as the means of salvation is being set apart by the Spirit and belief of the truth.

iow, it is THOUGH these things mentioned that one is saved.

This verse tells us that God chose HOW people would be saved. But it seems that has gone over your head, since you repeatedly fail to address that point.

Regardless of what you understand or don't, the verse STILL doesn't say what you want it to say.

And I have provided MANY verses that very clearly show the purpose of God's election, which is to service. iow, being chosen for a specific purpose.

Try to argue otherwise with these verses:

John 6:70,71 -
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Red words Jesus' election of the 12.
Blue words the purpose of electing Judas.

1 Cor 1:26-28
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

All the red words speak directly of God's election.
All the following blue words speak directly of God's specific service for His election.

Now, since you disagree, provide an explanation of how I'm wrong with these 2 verses.

Thanks.

btw, what is actually unwise is to challenge someone who knows the truth.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes I have. If election is to salvation, there would be verses that specifically state that.


No, it is wise. Because NO ONE can provide any such verse.


Didn't you read my response to this verse in my previous post. Well, that's on you.

It's not a difficult verse. What Paul is saying here is rather clear.

What God has chosen is the MEANS or METHOD of salvation. Which is "through sanctification/belief of the truth".

It seems you are having a great deal of difficulty understanding the wording.

First, the word for chosen isn't the word translated elected elsewhere. If it were, then you'd have a point. But as it is, you have none at all.

Second, what God has chosen as the means of salvation is being set apart by the Spirit and belief of the truth.

iow, it is THOUGH these things mentioned that one is saved.

This verse tells us that God chose HOW people would be saved. But it seems that has gone over your head, since you repeatedly fail to address that point.

Regardless of what you understand or don't, the verse STILL doesn't say what you want it to say.

And I have provided MANY verses that very clearly show the purpose of God's election, which is to service. iow, being chosen for a specific purpose.

Try to argue otherwise with these verses:

John 6:70,71 -
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Red words Jesus' election of the 12.
Blue words the purpose of electing Judas.

1 Cor 1:26-28
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

All the red words speak directly of God's election.
All the following blue words speak directly of God's specific service for His election.

Now, since you disagree, provide an explanation of how I'm wrong with these 2 verses.

Thanks.

btw, what is actually unwise is to challenge someone who knows the truth.

2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

How specific is that ?

 

[FreeGrace2]

2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

How specific is that ?

Yes, it's real specific, as I explained in my last post.

But you continue to mess up the message. What God has chosen is the method or means of salvation. Specifically, salvation is THROUGH SANCTIFICTION OF THE SPIRIT AND BELIEF IN THE TRUTH.

How come you aren't understanding that?

What the verse DOES NOT SAY is that God unconditionally choses who to save, which is what calvinists believe and claim.

btw, there are so many verses that clearly state that salvation is by faith that even calvinists should understand that salvation is conditioned upon faith.

iow, the people that God chooses to save are those who believe.

Recall 1 Cor 1:21? God is pleased to save those who believe.

Scripture is very clear. I wonder why you are not understanding it.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes, it's real specific, as I explained in my last post.

But you continue to mess up the message. What God has chosen is the method or means of salvation. Specifically, salvation is THROUGH SANCTIFICTION OF THE SPIRIT AND BELIEF IN THE TRUTH.

How come you aren't understanding that?

What the verse DOES NOT SAY is that God unconditionally choses who to save, which is what calvinists believe and claim.

btw, there are so many verses that clearly state that salvation is by faith that even calvinists should understand that salvation is conditioned upon faith.

iow, the people that God chooses to save are those who believe.

Recall 1 Cor 1:21? God is pleased to save those who believe.

Scripture is very clear. I wonder why you are not understanding it.

Not only is that verse very specific, so is Eph 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Chosen in Christ! That's Salvation. Being made holy and blameless before God is salvation. You have shot yourself in the foot sir.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not only is that verse very specific, so is Eph 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Chosen in Christ! That's Salvation. Being made holy and blameless before God is salvation. You have shot yourself in the foot sir.

First, please point out the specific reference to salvation in v.4.

Second, as I previously pointed out, the definition of "us" in v.4 is found in v.19-
and his incomparably great power for us who believe.

So, every time you come across a first person plural in ch 1 and 2, it is referring to ALL believers.

But you can REJECT it if you so CHOOSE.

But it's still the truth.

 

[Brightfame52]

Election to Salvation is referenced in 1 Thess 1:4-5

4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Election to Salvation is referenced in 1 Thess 1:4-5

4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

STILL doesn' say what you want it to say.

Yes, all believers are elect. Show me the exact words that say that election is to salvation. And the bolded words don't say that.

So try again.

Oh, and I said this:
"First, please point out the specific reference to salvation in v.4."

I see you couldn't so you desperately tried another verse, which also doesn't say what you want it to say.

 

[Brightfame52]

STILL doesn' say what you want it to say.

Yes, all believers are elect. Show me the exact words that say that election is to salvation. And the bolded words don't say that.

So try again.

Oh, and I said this:
"First, please point out the specific reference to salvation in v.4."

I see you couldn't so you desperately tried another verse, which also doesn't say what you want it to say.

lol Yo still dont get it !

 

[FreeGrace2]

lol Yo still dont get it !

Oh I get it, all right.

It's YOU who have no verses that support your claims.

 

[Brightfame52]

Oh I get it, all right.

It's YOU who have no verses that support your claims.

Back to Eph 1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

To be holy and without blame are Salvaic Blessings through the Obedience of Christ, His Blood makes the Elect Blameless by taking away their sins before God, and His Righteousness Imputed makes them Holy before Him, so again they were Chosen to Salvation. The Old Saint said:

Lk 1:74-77

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

 

[FreeGrace2]

Back to Eph 1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

To be holy and without blame are Salvaic Blessings through the Obedience of Christ

Wrong. To be holy and blameless is a command throughout the New Testament. Where have you been? Aren't you aware of that?

In the SAME epistle, Paul said this in 5:27 - and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

Notice who is being presents without blemish, but holy; the radiant church.

1 Thess 3:13 - May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

Do you understand what "so that" clearly implies?

2 Peter 3:11 - Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives

You seem to think that being holy and blameless is an automatic thing that comes along with salvation. Yet, Peter was clear about HOW to live the Christian life: we OUGHT TO BE HOLY AND GODLY.

This isn't automatic or guaranteed. Which refutes the "P" in TULIP.

His Blood makes the Elect Blameless by taking away their sins before God, and His Righteousness Imputed makes them Holy before Him, so again they were Chosen to Salvation.

You are just conflating different teachings and connecting the wrong dots.

Yes, believers are justified, which is by FAITH, not election. Rom 5:1. Read it if you don't believe me. Believe the Word.

The Old Saint said:

Lk 1:74-77

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

Nothing here about election to salvation, or election to holiness.

Once again, you have no support from Scripture for your ideas.

 

[Brightfame52]

Wrong. To be holy and blameless is a command throughout the New Testament. Where have you been? Aren't you aware of that?

In the SAME epistle, Paul said this in 5:27 - and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

Notice who is being presents without blemish, but holy; the radiant church.

1 Thess 3:13 - May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

Do you understand what "so that" clearly implies?

2 Peter 3:11 - Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives

You seem to think that being holy and blameless is an automatic thing that comes along with salvation. Yet, Peter was clear about HOW to live the Christian life: we OUGHT TO BE HOLY AND GODLY.

This isn't automatic or guaranteed. Which refutes the "P" in TULIP.


You are just conflating different teachings and connecting the wrong dots.

Yes, believers are justified, which is by FAITH, not election. Rom 5:1. Read it if you don't believe me. Believe the Word.


Nothing here about election to salvation, or election to holiness.

Once again, you have no support from Scripture for your ideas.

You don't get it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You don't get it.

You have definitely proven that you haven't.