Observations About Free-willian Bible Interpretation And Free-willian Writings

[bling]

"I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) was spoken in the presence of the 11 apostles*: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, and Judas son of James, by Lord Jesus.

"I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) was NOT spoken in the presence of Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

"I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) includes salvation because Lord Jesus says "out of the world".

You added to the Word of God when you wrote "Judas was 'chosen' out of the world" because neither Luke 6:13-16 nor John 6:70 state "out of the world".

Luke 6:13-16 and John 6:70 refers to the choosing of the 12 apostles (6/2/2021 correction, fix "nor" to be "and").



It sounds like you are opposed to taking scripture with scripture.

God gives followers of the Way a profound link between "world"/"earth" in 2 Peter 3:7 and "world" in John 15:19.



Here is an accurate translation of John 6:60, "Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard, said, 'This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?'"

Here is John 6:67 plus verses 68-70:

67 So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"
68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
69 "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and [yet] one of you is a devil?"

Look carefully, bling, there is action mentioned for the apostles with "do not want to go away" (John 6:67); on the other hand, there is a mention of choice in the passage, and that mention of choice is restricted to Jesus choosing the twelve.

No, there is no choice by persons that are chosen by Lord Jesus for Lord Jesus says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me" (John 10:27).

Essentially, that "when they heard" and "who can listen to it" (John 6:60) is about hearing; furthermore, "My sheep hear My voice" (John 10:27) is about hearing.

About hearing, it is written:

32 They brought to Him one who was deaf and spoke with difficulty, and they implored Him to lay His hand on him.
33 Jesus took him aside from the crowd, by himself, and put His fingers into his ears, and after spitting, He touched his tongue [with the saliva];
34 and looking up to heaven with a deep sigh, He said to him, "Ephphatha!" that is, "Be opened!"
35 And his ears were opened, and the impediment of his tongue was removed, and he [began] speaking plainly.

bling, do you see that "And his ears were opened"? That is God opening the ears!

The deaf do not understand the Word, so the Word must open the ears.

Back in John 6:67-70, the 11 apostles* were never snatched out of Lord Jesus' Hand (John 10:27-29) for the 11 apostles* hear Christ Jesus the Lord, yet the apostle Judas Iscariot was chosen for a purpose - and that apostle Judas did exactly that which God had the prophets prophesy about Judas.



I'm going to carefully disect your last paragraph.

bling wrote: The "work" is the "work" = believe

Up to that point, your statement is accurate.

bling wrote: which is what people can do spiritually and that is the "work" god has assigned to people to do

The word "ordained" is another word that works in the place of your word "assigned"

bling wrote: And not the work God does

In that clause of yours, bling, you flat out contradict Word of God Who says "This is the work of God" (John 6:28); therefore, you, a mere mortal person, loses, and the Word of God wins, so this is THE WORK OF GOD being spoken of regarding "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

bling wrote: In the context the people are asking about the work they can do and not what God does

Lord Jesus removed the work of man mentioned by the people in John 6:28 when Lord Jesus answered with "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Man manipulates belief/faith in order to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (bling's book of 2nd Opinions), but the Word of God declares your interpretation to be deception even before you, bling, even existed.

God works belief/faith in man in order for man to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

If Christ did not choose Judas, then who did and from which set of people was Judas chosen from?

You are the one adding to “out of the world” to mean “including salvation”, since that is not in there, it is describing where Jesus chose them from and not where they are going.

You are trying very hard to try and show man does not “allow” God (make a free will choice that is not work by the Bible’s definition of work) to gift them, while allowing God through faith in God is what man does.

“Work” is well defined in scripture as what you cannot do on the Sabbath day, but that does not mean you cannot do anything (like worship which is not work).

Help me out here: what do you consider to be man’s objective while here on earth, why were we made in the first place, and why do we spend this short time here on earth?

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Greek word in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 for "choose" is εἵλατο, and it is Strong's Greek: 138. αἱρέομαι (haireó) -- to take, choose ; therefore, Paul precisely represents God's choosing of man unto salvation.

You're misreading the verse. Paul isn't talking about being saved, but rather the way someone gets saved.

"But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth."

The bold words show that God chose people to be saved THROUGH 2 things:
sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

The verse is about the mechanics of how to be saved. Not the choice to be saved.

As distasteful and bitter in your mouth as it is that God controls salvation

The pitiful thing is your completely ignorant idea about what I consider distasteful or bitter. You have no idea. But go ahead and pat yourself on the back. But don't strain your shoulder.

Of course God controls salvation. Where have I ever suggested or said differently?

But what you don't have is any verse that says God chooses unconditionally who to save, which is the reformed view of election. TULIP. The "U" refers to unconditional election. If salvation were unconditional then faith doesn't save. Yet the Bible repeatedly SAYS that we are saved by faith. So, salvation IS conditional.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Couldn't be any more clear. God is pleased to save those who believe. That is the condition for being saved.

Paul gave the same answer to the jailer as well:

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Salvation is NOT "unconditional" as calvinists claim. Salvation is based on faith.

Eph 2:8 says the same thing: we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH.

Salvation is most certainly conditional.

yet you are incapable of any work unto salvation not even a choice of Jesus.

Correct. There is no work that results in salvation.

"God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth" wrote Paul (2 Thessalonians 2:13), so that "God has chosen" is tied directly to "salvation".

God chose the mechanics of how to be saved.

Only deceivers would assert that the 2 Thessalonians 2:13 passage does not include that God chooses persons unto salvation.

The verse does NOT support calvinist claims.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation)

What you cannot prove from any Scripture is your parenthesis about "includes salvation". That's just YOUR own opinion.

Every verse that shows a purpose in election is in regard to service, even ol' Judas, per John 6:70,71.

Consider these verses, as just 1 of many many examples:

Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

The red words refer to Paul. The blue words refer to the purpose of God's election of Paul.

Now, from Paul himself, regarding that day back in Acts 9:

Acts 26:16 - ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.

Paul was ELECTED (chosen, appointed) as a servant.

Couldn't be more clear.

Oh, and 1 Cor 1-
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

The red words describe chosen things, or ELECT things. The blue words describe the purpose in this ELECTION.

I rest my case. Ball.in.your.court.

 

[Kermos]

Eph 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Spiritual blessings are Salvation Blessings, and they are bestowed u the Elect according to their Election in Christ before the foundation:

AWP

I've mentioned to freewillians like @FreeGrace2 that the word "blameless" means "without blame" which means a person whose sins against God are forgiven in the Blood of Christ, so Paul makes it clear to we believers that God chose us believers unto salvation (Ephesians 1:3-4).

Unless God opens eyes of freewillians, they cannot see the truth right in front of them, in fact, they will actively deny the Savior's words. You told @FreeGrace2 the truth about the two passage, but @FreeGrace2 just marches along and tries to drag others right into the pit (Matthew 15:14).

Instead, freewillians cling to their prideful claim of saving themselves by way of their illegitimate "choice" of Jesus who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

 

[FreeGrace2]

I've mentioned to freewillians like @FreeGrace2 that the word "blameless" means "without blame" which means a person whose sins against God are forgiven in the Blood of Christ, so Paul makes it clear to we believers that God chose us believers unto salvation (Ephesians 1:3-4).

Please RE-read the verse. It doesn't say God chose believers to be saved, as you presume.

It clearly says that God chose believers to be holy and blameless. No unbeliever is "without blame". They're born with blame.

What do you do with commands for believers to "be holy and blameless"?

The fact that you admit that God chose believers should be a clue that election isn't about being saved.

Romans 9:11-12 actually describes the purpose of election-

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

1 Cor 1:27-28
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

The red phrases refer to God's election.
The blue phrases that follow the red phrases refer to the PURPOSE of God's election.

Now, please explain who any of the blue phrases refer to salvation. I'm just not getting it.

Unless God opens eyes of freewillians, they cannot see the truth right in front of them, in fact, they will actively deny the Savior's words.

Well, now YOU have an opportunity to deny God's words.

And since you mention "the Savior's words", lets examine John 6-
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

So, what calvinist would argue that Judas was chosen for salvation?

Instead, freewillians cling to their prideful claim of saving themselves by way of their illegitimate "choice" of Jesus who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

I have never claimed to have "saved myself", so your claim here is as false as can be. Now pay attention: Jesus Christ is my Savior. That means He saves me.

Your default to more calvinist talking points (that are totally unbiblical) as a defense, or more likely, as a deflection, is transparent.

You cannot quote ANY verse that indicates that God chooses unconditionally anyone for salvation.

The Bible is so clear; we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH.

Do you understand that the capitalized words are THE condition for salvation? Or are you willing to deny the clear and obvious truth of Scripture.

Salvation is conditioned on faith in Christ. Paul made that clear in his answer to the jailer.

Denying any of this is denial of God's Truth.

 

[Kermos]

POST ADDRESSING YOUR DECEPTIVE INTERPRETATION OF EPHESIANS 1:3-4

I already disproved your theory. What didn't you understand?

WTM (whatever that means)

No, you disproved nothing because you make claims that contradict the Word of God. The Word of God is Truth (John 14:6).

When you wrote "Second, as I previously pointed out, the definition of 'us' in v.4 is found in v.19-
and his incomparably great power for us who believe" earlier in the thread, you acknowledged that the "believe" is crucial, yet the Word of God states that the "believe" is "the work of God" when Lord Jesus says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

In the same book, Ephesians, Paul wrote "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8), belief (faith) is NOT controlled by the believer to point at Jesus, rather believers "are His work" (Ephesians 2:10).

All of "grace" and "saved" and "faith" are works of God in believers unto salvation, and we believers are His work, His creation.

None of "grace" and "saved" and "faith" are works of man, not even a "faith" that man steers toward Jesus, for "grace" and "saved" and "faith" are "not of yourselves" (Ephesians 2:8) with that "yourselves" referring to "us who believe" in Ephesians 1:19 (which you cited).

NOW, BACK TO EPHESIANS 1:3-4

Paul wrote, "Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love" (Ephesians 1:3-4, the word "just" is the first word of verse 4).

Proceeding throught the passage:

Starting with "Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every", Paul wrote praises to God Almighty.

Next with "spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ", Paul wrote "blessed us with every spiritual blessing"; therefore, salvation (being saved from the wrath of God) is part of "every spiritual blessing". God's blessing is not a work of man, but, rather, God's blessing is a work of God. As a result, salvation is the gift of God to we believers (Ephesians 2:8), and belief (fiath) is the gift of God to we believers (Ephesians 2:8), and grace is the gift of God to we believers (Ephesians 2:8). All of this is done by God in us believers "in Christ".

Followed by "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world", Paul wrote that "before the foundation of the world" God "chose us"; therefore, God identified we believers before the earth was founded which not one person more nor one person less will be saved since God chose the specific persons before the persons exist.

Finishing with "that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love", Paul wrote this concluding phrase dependent upon "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world", and Paul alos wrote this concluding phrase with the word "blameless" which is a state of being. A person in the state of being "blameless" is to be "without blame" which means that the punishment for sin is no more for the person, and the payment for the sin is "in Christ". Overall, this "blameless" refers to the state of salvation, that is, being saved from the wrath of God.

YOUR DECEPTION EXPOSED

God did the choosing BEFORE we believers exist and after coming into existence then believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent; therefore, when you try to tie the "us who believe" in Ephesians 1:19 such that it makes the "chose" in Ephesians 1:4 dependent upon the creature, it is there that you deceive.

God did the choosing unto salvation; therefore, when you try to subtract salvation from the passage, it is there that you deceive.

God causes the very "believe" to exist in we believers; therefore, when you claim the creature causes the "believe" to point at Jesus, it is there that you call Lord Jesus a liar for He clearly states "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

FreeGrace2. you have proved the original post in this thread to be true because you are repeating your interpretations that the Word of God made to be false before you came into existence.

 

[Kermos]

POST ADDRESSING YOUR DECEPTIVE INTERPRETATION OF 2 THESSALONIANS 2:13

I already disproved your theory. What didn't you understand?

WTM (whatever that means)

No, you disproved nothing because you make claims that subtract from scripture.

Paul wrote "we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Proceeding through the passage:

Starting with "we should always give thanks to God for you", Paul wrote of giving thanks to God Almighty.

Next with "brethren beloved by the Lord", Paul wrote of the love of Jesus Christ for Christ's bride.

Followed by "because God has chosen you from the beginning", Paul wrote of God choosing we believers "from the beginning" which is akin to that which Paul wrote in Ephesians 1:3-4 (which is covered in this prior post to you in this thread); furthermore, this "choosing" is done by God, not man, but God.

Then "for salvation" was written by Paul, which means the "God has chosen you" is "for salvation".

Next with "through sanctification by the Spirit", Paul wrote of God's Spirit doing the work of sanctification in man, not man sanctifying himself, no, he wrote the Spirit does the sanctification of man.

Finishing with "and faith in the truth", Paul wrote of the necessity of belief in the Truth, and this harkens back to the Word of God saying "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), and also where Paul wrote "saved through faith; and that not of yourselves" (Ephesians 2:8). Lord Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6).

YOUR DECEPTION EXPOSED

God did the choosing unto salvation; therefore, when you try to subtract salvation from the passage, it is there that you deceive.

God causes the very "believe" to exist in we believers; therefore, when you claim the creature causes the "believe" to point at Jesus, it is there that you call Lord Jesus a liar for He clearly states "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

FreeGrace2. you have proved the original post in this thread to be true because you are repeating your interpretations which the quoted Word of God, previously shown to you, demonstrates your interpretations to be false.

 

[Kermos]

You can not stick to scripture and embrace determinism. Not without warping scripture.

Your post is devoid of scripture, so your post is a very dangerous post.

Second, since you speak outside the Word of God, that makes your post merely your interpretative thoughts, yet it is written "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

Third, since you speak outside the Word of God, that makes your post merely your interpretative thoughts, yet the Apostle Peter wrote "know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is [a matter] of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" (2 Peter 1:20-21).

But, you, renniks, have proven the original post in this thread to be true because some of these scriptures quoted in this post have been quoted to you previously, not to mention that you think that you are part of "the whole world" as in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19) depsite John writing of Christians "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13) which by extension and according to your interpretation puts you outside of being a Christian, just as this post shows.

NOW, THE WORD OF GOD IS QUOTED HEREIN:

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

 

[FreeGrace2]

POST ADDRESSING YOUR DECEPTIVE INTERPRETATION OF EPHESIANS 1:3-4

No, you disproved nothing because you make claims that contradict the Word of God. The Word of God is Truth (John 14:6).

OK, let's see what I've contradicted.

When you wrote "Second, as I previously pointed out, the definition of 'us' in v.4 is found in v.19-
and his incomparably great power for us who believe" earlier in the thread, you acknowledged that the "believe" is crucial, yet the Word of God states that the "believe" is "the work of God" when Lord Jesus says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

OK, so we're going to jump all around, picking/choosing verses that are convenient.

When Jesus spoke of the "work of God" it was in the context of what the unbelieving Jews just said to Him. He was using their own words, sort of a tongue in cheek answer.

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

The red words indicate their works salvation bias. They asked what THEY must do to receive eternal life.

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

So Jesus used their own word "work of God". iow, Jesus was using tongue in cheek to tell them that what God requires for eternal life is to believe in His Son.

Let's stay in John 6 for a bit. v.40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

So that's exactly what God requires for giving eternal life.

In the same book, Ephesians, Paul wrote "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8), belief (faith) is NOT controlled by the believer to point at Jesus, rather believers "are His work" (Ephesians 2:10).

I'm not sure what your sentence means. Could you rephrase? Thanks.

The "it is the gift of God" refers back to salvation, not "faith". Check the genders. They always go together.

All of "grace" and "saved" and "faith" are works of God in believers unto salvation, and we believers are His work, His creation.

What is your point? Check the genders in Eph 2:8. "it" refers back to salvation, not faith.

None of "grace" and "saved" and "faith" are works of man, not even a "faith" that man steers toward Jesus, for "grace" and "saved" and "faith" are "not of yourselves" (Ephesians 2:8) with that "yourselves" referring to "us who believe" in Ephesians 1:19 (which you cited).

I agree that faith is not a work. Not only Eph 2:8,9 make that clear, but also Rom 4:4,5 as well.

NOW, BACK TO EPHESIANS 1:3-4

Paul wrote, "Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love" (Ephesians 1:3-4, the word "just" is the first word of verse 4).

Proceeding throught the passage:

Starting with "Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every", Paul wrote praises to God Almighty.

Next with "spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ", Paul wrote "blessed us with every spiritual blessing"; therefore, salvation (being saved from the wrath of God) is part of "every spiritual blessing". God's blessing is not a work of man, but, rather, God's blessing is a work of God. As a result, salvation is the gift of God to we believers (Ephesians 2:8), and belief (fiath) is the gift of God to we believers (Ephesians 2:8), and grace is the gift of God to we believers (Ephesians 2:8). All of this is done by God in us believers "in Christ".

Mostly a word salad.

Followed by "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world", Paul wrote that "before the foundation of the world" God "chose us"; therefore, God identified we believers before the earth was founded which not one person more nor one person less will be saved since God chose the specific persons before the persons exist.

There is nothing here about specific persons being chosen/elected.

Paul defined "us" as believers in 1:19. There is no reason to assume/presume that he meant anyone else anywhere else in ch 1.

So, v.4 clearly says God chose believers (who are) in Him...to be (purpose clause) to be holy and blameless

And there are verses that command believers to be holy and blameless.

Finishing with "that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love", Paul wrote this concluding phrase dependent upon "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world", and Paul alos wrote this concluding phrase with the word "blameless" which is a state of being. A person in the state of being "blameless" is to be "without blame" which means that the punishment for sin is no more for the person, and the payment for the sin is "in Christ". Overall, this "blameless" refers to the state of salvation, that is, being saved from the wrath of God.

It seems you are misreading the verses.

YOUR DECEPTION EXPOSED

OK, let's see.

God did the choosing BEFORE we believers exist and after coming into existence then believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent; therefore, when you try to tie the "us who believe" in Ephesians 1:19 such that it makes the "chose" in Ephesians 1:4 dependent upon the creature, it is there that you deceive.

Huh? Surely you can read the English as well as I do. The "us" in v.4 is the SAME "us" in v.19. But maybe you can prove otherwise. Please do.

God did the choosing unto salvation

Since you brought up "deception" here is an example from yourself. Where in v.4 does Paul mention God choosing unto salvation? You've just slipped in some calvinist talking points.

In fact, there are NO verses that teach that God chooses unto salvation.

therefore, when you try to subtract salvation from the passage, it is there that you deceive.

It is a clear deception to try to FORCE salvation into the verse. It isn't there. Paul was writing to saved people. He didn't even mention salvation.

God causes the very "believe" to exist in we believers

Well, here's some more deception. What verse or verses say that God causes one to believe? I will tell you there aren't any. So here's your chance to totally refute and humiliate me by providing verses that DO say that God causes belief.

therefore, when you claim the creature causes the "believe" to point at Jesus, it is there that you call Lord Jesus a liar for He clearly states "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Wow, your string of deceptions are stunning! I never claimed what you say I claimed. That is a lie, or just maybe total ignorance about what I have said.

And I have already explained what John 6:29 means. So I won't repeat myself.

FreeGrace2. you have proved the original post in this thread to be true because you are repeating your interpretations that the Word of God made to be false before you came into existence.

This is rather silly. You haven't even mentioned free will in your post.

And your conclusion about fmy interpretations is what is false. My explanations don't make the word to be false. And you haven't shown that.

You come out of the gate all about my "deceptions", yet I've shown a number of YOUR deceptions, or at least very faulty claims that are totally untrue.

Eph 1:4 says nothing about salvation. In fact, Paul was writing to those who are already saved; they are called believers. And Paul is teaching believers what God has chosen/elected them to DO; to be holy and blameless.

This is service. That is what God's election is all (and only) about.

I challenge you to prove me wrong by quoting your best verse that supposedly says that God elects unto salvation.

Then I will prove you wrong by a number of verses that are clearly about service and caannot be about being chosen unto salvation.

 

[renniks]

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) -

No it doesn't say anything about salvation. This is Jesus talking to the twelve. Use some context.

 

[Brightfame52]

POST ADDRESSING YOUR DECEPTIVE INTERPRETATION OF EPHESIANS 1:3-4



No, you disproved nothing because you make claims that contradict the Word of God. The Word of God is Truth (John 14:6).

When you wrote "Second, as I previously pointed out, the definition of 'us' in v.4 is found in v.19-
and his incomparably great power for us who believe" earlier in the thread, you acknowledged that the "believe" is crucial, yet the Word of God states that the "believe" is "the work of God" when Lord Jesus says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

In the same book, Ephesians, Paul wrote "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8), belief (faith) is NOT controlled by the believer to point at Jesus, rather believers "are His work" (Ephesians 2:10).

All of "grace" and "saved" and "faith" are works of God in believers unto salvation, and we believers are His work, His creation.

None of "grace" and "saved" and "faith" are works of man, not even a "faith" that man steers toward Jesus, for "grace" and "saved" and "faith" are "not of yourselves" (Ephesians 2:8) with that "yourselves" referring to "us who believe" in Ephesians 1:19 (which you cited).

NOW, BACK TO EPHESIANS 1:3-4

Paul wrote, "Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love" (Ephesians 1:3-4, the word "just" is the first word of verse 4).

Proceeding throught the passage:

Starting with "Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every", Paul wrote praises to God Almighty.

Next with "spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ", Paul wrote "blessed us with every spiritual blessing"; therefore, salvation (being saved from the wrath of God) is part of "every spiritual blessing". God's blessing is not a work of man, but, rather, God's blessing is a work of God. As a result, salvation is the gift of God to we believers (Ephesians 2:8), and belief (fiath) is the gift of God to we believers (Ephesians 2:8), and grace is the gift of God to we believers (Ephesians 2:8). All of this is done by God in us believers "in Christ".

Followed by "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world", Paul wrote that "before the foundation of the world" God "chose us"; therefore, God identified we believers before the earth was founded which not one person more nor one person less will be saved since God chose the specific persons before the persons exist.

Finishing with "that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love", Paul wrote this concluding phrase dependent upon "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world", and Paul alos wrote this concluding phrase with the word "blameless" which is a state of being. A person in the state of being "blameless" is to be "without blame" which means that the punishment for sin is no more for the person, and the payment for the sin is "in Christ". Overall, this "blameless" refers to the state of salvation, that is, being saved from the wrath of God.

YOUR DECEPTION EXPOSED

God did the choosing BEFORE we believers exist and after coming into existence then believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent; therefore, when you try to tie the "us who believe" in Ephesians 1:19 such that it makes the "chose" in Ephesians 1:4 dependent upon the creature, it is there that you deceive.

God did the choosing unto salvation; therefore, when you try to subtract salvation from the passage, it is there that you deceive.

God causes the very "believe" to exist in we believers; therefore, when you claim the creature causes the "believe" to point at Jesus, it is there that you call Lord Jesus a liar for He clearly states "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

FreeGrace2. you have proved the original post in this thread to be true because you are repeating your interpretations that the Word of God made to be false before you came into existence.

Excellent, you have completely exposed the posters deception. It took a lot of work to do so, and that is what the opponent intends. Not many as you have done will take that much time to expose false teaching which goes against the clear biblical testimony. May God continue to use you to expose that error !

 

[Brightfame52]

freegrace

I challenge you to prove me wrong

Lol, the poster already has. He needs not waste more time with your bluffing and wind blowing !

 

[FreeGrace2]

freegrace

Lol, the poster already has. He needs not waste more time with your bluffing and wind blowing !

You only think so.

 

[Brightfame52]

You only think so.

I know so, and the poster knows so, and most importantly God knows so !

 

[Kermos]

You are the one adding to the scripture by saying "includes salvation".

Ah, so bling, then you are saying that when Lord Jesus says "out of the world" (John 15:19) that the Christ is NOT referring to persons being saved from the wrath of God when the world will be destroyed by fire (2 Peter 3:7).

Your accussation is deadly false.

When Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), then He includes salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ah, so bling, then you are saying that when Lord Jesus says "out of the world" (John 15:19) that the Christ is NOT referring to persons being saved from the wrath of God when the world will be destroyed by fire (2 Peter 3:7).

Your accussation is deadly false.

When Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), then He includes salvation.

How can you prove your claim? The very context of John 15 is about "bearing fruit", which is SERVICE, not salvation.

 

[Brightfame52]

How can you prove your claim? The very context of John 15 is about "bearing fruit", which is SERVICE, not salvation.

The service is spiritual which requires being saved !

 

[bling]

Ah, so bling, then you are saying that when Lord Jesus says "out of the world" (John 15:19) that the Christ is NOT referring to persons being saved from the wrath of God when the world will be destroyed by fire (2 Peter 3:7).

Your accussation is deadly false.

When Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), then He includes salvation.

No it is talking about where they came from and not where they are going to.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
How can you prove your claim? The very context of John 15 is about "bearing fruit", which is SERVICE, not salvation.

The service is spiritual which requires being saved !

This doesn't prove your claim.

Election is God's choice for service; that is, believers.

He elects believers.

When you find a verse that clearly says that election is to salvation, please share.

 

[Brightfame52]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
How can you prove your claim? The very context of John 15 is about "bearing fruit", which is SERVICE, not salvation.

This doesn't prove your claim.

Election is God's choice for service; that is, believers.

He elects believers.

When you find a verse that clearly says that election is to salvation, please share.

You so busy trying to deny election to salvation, you just making yourself look foolish. Everyone knows we are saved for service Eph 2:8-10


8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Good works is service !

 

[FreeGrace2]

You so busy trying to deny election to salvation, you just making yourself look foolish. Everyone knows we are saved for service Eph 2:8-10

You keep missing the point. There are NO verses that say we are elected to salvation. All election is to service.

And some elections involve unsaved people. The entire Jewish nation, Judas.