Objectivity?

[Xeno.of.athens]

Do you think that any of your religious beliefs are provable?
Is any religious idea "objectively true"?

 

[Neogaia777]

Do you think that any of your religious beliefs are provable?
Is any religious idea "objectively true"?

The best we can try to do is approach the possibilities of something being true or not true or not free from all bias, etc.

And then work with what is most likely true or not, until it is either true or is not true any longer, etc.

This is not easy to do since most human beings are some of the most biased people on the planet, and often don't like to change their current paradigms, etc. But this is part of what it means to be objective, etc.

And all people usually all disagree on this also, which makes it even more difficult, etc.

But when presented with might more than likely be irrefutable facts, consider changing your current paradigm, etc.

God Bless.

 

[RandyPNW]

Do you think that any of your religious beliefs are provable?
Is any religious idea "objectively true"?

In the search for *absolute truth* the limits of knowledge has to be understood. Since we are feeble of mind, anything we truly know would be questioned by us nonetheless. The truest truth would have to be questioned because we may have erred!

But our normal experience is that data comes before our sensory receptors and we collectively acknowledge the same experience and so admit "truth." That is "objectively true."

The most important thing, religiously, is the reality of things, whether it is sensory data or subjective experience. Are we really experiencing God's Spirit, and did we really see that miracle? Even if we saw a miracle how could we continue to believe it? It could be rerun on a recording and still it would appear to be "doctored." If we experienced God one moment, how could we be sure the next moment?

So truth is something that is made certain by God Himself, who enables us to receive a measure of certainty based on how He chooses to reveal things to us. Those who reject God are not given adequate understanding to believe in Him. They've rejected the very means by which God determines our spiritual experience is real.

And so, objective certainty comes when we open ourselves to God's means of communicating absolute truth to us about Himself. And it should be this way. If we don't accept His morality and virtue, what is the use of knowing Him at all?

 

[eleos1954]

The best we can try to do is approach the possibilities of something being true or not true or not free from all bias, etc.

And then work with what is most likely true or not, until it is either true or is not true any longer, etc.

This is not easy to do since most human beings are some of the most biased people on the planet, and often don't like to change their current paradigms, etc. But this is part of what it means to be objective, etc.

And all people usually all disagree on this also, which makes it even more difficult, etc.

But when presented with might more than likely be irrefutable facts, consider changing your current paradigm, etc.

God Bless.

But when presented with might more than likely be irrefutable facts

No such thing on the large scale .... either facts are irrefutable or not. Often, very often statements are stated as "facts", when those statements are dependent on accurate data sources (which can be in error) and the analyzation/interpretation of that data (subjective).

Refutable:
adjective. able to be proven false:The statement is so vague as to be neither provable nor refutable.

Example ...

Word of God says nature is evidence of Him being the creator .... evolutionists look at nature and give their interpretation of it ... creation scientists look at the same data and give their interpretation of it. People decide what they believe and that is not dependent on facts. It's based on what information they have and how they interpret it and/or rely on someone else's interpretation.

The focus of the Word of God is on relationship, it's not intended to be a used as a science book. Relationships are not a material thing.

The one thing about the Word of God is the more sure word of prophecy and the accuracy of it.

If one decides they were created by God then there is more for them to do (pursuing a relationship with God) ... if one does not then there is nothing more for them to do in that regard.

Scripture says that God's existence is evident to everyone.

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse (Romans 1:19, 20).

Nowhere in the Bible are there arguments seeking to prove God's existence. That does not mean He does not exist. He says it's seen in nature.

If a person denies the existence of God, then there is no reference point for understanding themselves or the world around them.

I once asked an atheist how he explains to his children the reasons for all the violence, suffering etc. in the world .... his answer: "These things happen". Happen chance? No reason. No reference point.

2 Corinthians 4:18 says, “We look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.” Our Savior is calling us to a life lived for that which is unseen: the eternal.A

The unseen? Are there other dimensions to our existence that we can not see? Certainly possible and plausible ... and scientists don't discount that as a possibility either (other dimensions).

A better word to use is debatable instead of (refutable) .... everything is debatable (open to discussion) .... and that is what we do.

 

[Soyeong]

Do you think that any of your religious beliefs are provable?
Is any religious idea "objectively true"?

Everything that we believe to be true is subjective though we believe those things because we think that they are in accordance with objective reality. Our religious beliefs are proved to us because we have been given what we consider to be sufficient evidence for that they are in accordance with objective reality.

 

[bling]

Do you think that any of your religious beliefs are provable?
Is any religious idea "objectively true"?

Yes, man's objective is logical.
Adam and Eve were made “very good” by God’s standard of “very good”, which I would say: “The best two made beings could be made.” Christ is perfect, but Christ is not a made being but deity, so God cannot make clones of a perfect Christ.

Adam and Eve lacked one very important attribute which could keep them from sinning, but that attribute is something even God cannot gift them, because it has to be humbly accepted of their own free will, let me explain:

Unfortunately, sin has purpose and appears to be needed for all mature adults (which Adam and Eve showed themselves and us) to help those who are willing to fulfill their earthly objective. The objective drives everything.

Starting with God is Love (the epitome of Love), which means God is totally unselfish and is not doing stuff for His own sake, but is doing everything for the sake of man, which is also God’s desire and might be referred to as, His sake.

God would be doing or allowing everything to help humans who are just willing to accept His help to fulfill their earthly objective.

So, God allows evil to happen, to help humans, but God also allowed Christ to go to the cross to help humans.

There is really nothing you (a created being) can “do” to help the Creator, but you can allow, of your own free will, God to help you, which is God’s desire, since God is a huge giver of gifts.

You can take any command given in scripture and have Biblical support for calling it “Man’s objective” since God said this is what man is to do, but there is one (more like two) commands all other commands are under.

Man’s objective is found in the God given Mission statement of: Loving God (and secondly Loving others) with all your heart, soul, mind and energy. In order to fulfill that mission man must first obtain Godly type Love which will make man like God Himself in that man will Love like God Loves. Would becoming like God Himself not be the greatest gift we could receive?

The objective is not to never ever sin, but to obtain this Godly type Love is the first of man’s objective.

The Adam and Eve story helps us understand. Most people go through a time in which they ask: “How could a Loving God allow such a thing”, which means “why does God not start us all out in a Garden type situation without, needy people, limited resources, death, and questions about His existence?”

What we can do is thank Adam and Eve for showing us and them that what we might consider the ideal situation is a lousy situation for man to fulfill his earthly objective. Adam and Eve as our very best all human representatives did not fulfill the objective while sinless in the Garden and really could not. The situation after sinning outside the Garden did provide a way to fulfill the objective.

There are just somethings even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), like God cannot make another Christ since Christ is not a created being. The big inability for us is to be created with instinctive (programmed) Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also, if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real likely alternatives (for humans on earth those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them, burdens them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus (Luke 7: 36-50) and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant (this includes hell), so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

This messed up world is actually the very best place for willing mature adult individuals to see, receive, give, experience, accept and grow Godly type Love. All these tragedies provide opportunities for Love, but that does not mean we go around causing opportunities, since we are to be ceasing these opportunities (there are plenty of opportunities) to show/experience Love.

I and it seems other have to have opportunities at our doorstep to respond with Love, if I would just cease the opportunities at some distance there might be fewer opportunities (tragedies) needed for me, so if you want to blame someone for all these tragedies blame me for not ceasing more earlier.

Hell does nothing for the people going to hell, but that was their choice since they kept refusing to accept God’s help (forgiveness, Love, grace, mercy, charity) to the point they will never humbly accept. Hell does help some willing individuals to not put off their acceptance of God’s help.

We are not making some honorable choice to accept God’s forgiveness, since sin burdens us and we just want undeserved relief from our pain and burden.

In order to be forgiven of sin you must first sin, so sin is necessary, but not desired.

Introduction

 

[Hawkins]

When you are in a fishing boat in the middle of the seas and the radio says that there's a tornado coming towards your location, how do you know that what the radio says is objectively true?

Subconsciously, it's a question about "if it's objectively true, then how would you know?". To put it another way, humans subconsciously determine a truth is objective when this truth is conveyed in a unique way which all kinds of objective truths shall convey.

Isaiah 6:9
He said, “Go and tell this people: “ ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’

 

[Bob Crowley]

Do you think that any of your religious beliefs are provable?
Is any religious idea "objectively true"?

If our religion could easily be proven to be true, we would not need faith.

For some reason God seems to have set up the system so His being cannot be proved and we are cast back on faith. For a God who is omnipresent (everywhere), omnipotent (all powerful) and omniscient (all knowing which means He also reads our thoughts and counts the hairs on our heads, He manages to hide Himself pretty well).

As Christ said to Thomas and the disciples - NIV John 20:29 "Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

I claim to have had a number of "spiritual experiences" (father turning up the night he died, 3 "double whammies", "voices" on a handful of occasions, predictions by my old pastor that have come true, a few visions of the pastor after he died and so on).

But in the end I can only relate these as personal anecdotes. I can't "prove" them.

So, no, I can't prove my religion. But I've had enough experiences that I think it's "True".

It's also rooted in history.

 

[NBB]

Yes, the bible says we can have His Spirit, and we can have, as real as anything else.

 

[Jonaitis]

Do you think that any of your religious beliefs are provable?
Is any religious idea "objectively true"?

Belief itself is not objective, but subjective, since they're shaped by personal experiences, values, and perspectives. However, the evidence or reasoning behind a belief can be evaluated objectively.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Belief itself is not objective, but subjective, since they're shaped by personal experiences, values, and perspectives. However, the evidence or reasoning behind a belief can be evaluated objectively.

I agree that religious beliefs are chiefly subjective. Maybe all beliefs are chiefly subjective. I am not so sure about objectivity existing for the method or the process of evaluating beliefs.

 

[Neogaia777]

True objectivity, rarely exists at all.

And that's important to know when trying to assimilate any kind of information, or anything from anybody or anything in this world, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Jonaitis]

I agree that religious beliefs are chiefly subjective. Maybe all beliefs are chiefly subjective. I am not so sure about objectivity existing for the method or the process of evaluating beliefs.

What is your take on what is objective?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

What is your take on what is objective?

Human beings "know" through their mind and their senses; we also have instruments to augment the senses. The mediation of knowledge through senses and augmenting instruments implies the possibility of bias and selectivity. In theory God knows everything and knows it exhaustively, but human beings do not know everything and probably do not know anything exhaustively. I have used "objectively" to mean to know exhaustively.

 

[Jonaitis]

Human beings "know" through their mind and their senses; we also have instruments to augment the senses. The mediation of knowledge through senses and augmenting instruments implies the possibility of bias and selectivity. In theory God knows everything and knows it exhaustively, but human beings do not know everything and probably do not know anything exhaustively. I have used "objectively" to mean to know exhaustively.

I can agree with that, because that would imply that nothing is truly objective without the overall picture of everything. We all live inside a subjective world through our own interpretation of sense-perception. However, this would give grounds to semi-nihilism, in that there is hardly any real meaning to our own individual lives in light of the bigger picture, because it is purely subjective in nature.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I can agree with that, because that would imply that nothing is truly objective without the overall picture of everything. We all live inside a subjective world through our own interpretation of sense-perception. However, this would give grounds to semi-nihilism, in that there is hardly any real meaning to our own individual lives in light of the bigger picture, because it is purely subjective in nature.

I suspect that atheism ought to end in practical nihilism.

 

[The Liturgist]

I suspect that atheism ought to end in practical nihilism.

It certainly does. You might be interested, and indeed I very highly recommend, the book Fr. Seraphim Rose wrote on the subject of Nihilism in all of its many perverse forms. I have a print copy.