TheScottsMen
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UPCI teaches you must speak in tongues to be saved and baptism in the name of Jesus (instead of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit - THey do not believe in the trinity)LynneClomina said:
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Objections to Charismatic Teachings
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Godz Marine
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Why then did the apostles throughout the book of Acts encourage believers to "recieve" or be baptized in the Spirit along with being born again and water baptized? Also, Christ told those who had followed Him to wait until the Holy Spirit had come upon them and endued them with power. We see this happening in Acts 2 and with it came the evidence of speaking in tongues.didaskalos said:
Yes, when we are born again we are filled with the Spirit of Christ but we do not speak in tongues as the evidence of the infilling power of the Holy Ghost. Even in the Bible we can clearly see that rebirth does not bring with it the power of the Holy Spirit.
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I do not think you are reading what I am saying friend. I know we do not get power for the Gifts of the Holy Spirit until we are baptized in the Holy Spirit. I am not talking about the Holy Spirit or the gifts of the Spirit. I am talking about the spirit of Christ that we all receive at the instant we are born again. When you are born again, your old spirit is done away with and you recieve a new spirit that is the spirit of Christ. This spirit of Christ in you can speak. Most people need the Holy Spirit to come along side them to help them before they can manifest tongues. He gives them utterance, but they speak.Godz Marine said:
One of the things I press a lot on these boards is the fact that the Holy Spirit is not the same as the spirit of Christ. You receive the latter when you are born again, and this spirit is actually "you." At some point after this, even if it is a millisecond, you can be baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Once again you are confusing the two spirits and the two tongues. I did not say that tongues is the evidence of infilling power of the Holy Ghost nor did I say that the the new birth = the Holy Spirit.
These are two different spirits, two different events, and two different manifestations. The spirit of Christ that you received when you were born again replaced the fallen spirit you had. It is not the Holy Spirit. But the spirit of Christ in you can speak. It is not dumb and mute. It needs to be developed... and that is what the Holy Spirit if for.
For example:
When your spirit (the reborn spirit of Christ) inside you cries "Abba", the Holy Spirit bears witness with your spirit (the spirit of Christ) that you are a child of God. There are two spirits here. Your spirit (the spirit of Christ in you) is speaking, and the Holy Spirit is agreeing. Two spirits.
At some point in your Christian life, you may (or may not) be baptized with the Holy Spirit. What I described in the last paragraph happened regardless of if you were baptized with the Holy Spirit of not. If you never are baptized with the Holy Spirit, your spirit (the spirit of Christ in you) will still cry "Abba", and the Holy Spirit will still bear witness.
My whole point now, is to say that this "Abba", which occurs whether you are baptized with the Holy Spirit or not, is tongues! Not the Holy Spirit gift "diversities of tongues," but the "new tongues" sign that Jesus said would follow all who believe... including those who have not received the baptism with the Holy Spirit! Intercession (whether you are baptized with the Holy Spirit or not) is speaking in tongues. You do not need the baptism in the Holy Spirit to say "Abba" or interceed.
Thanks
Didy
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pentecostal girl
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There are churches that teach that in order for you to heaven you must speak in tongues. I'm Church of God and we believe that speaking in tongues is the inital evidence of the HS.We don't believe that speaking in tongues is going to affect your salvation in any way. But some churches teach thatLynneClomina said:
I still would have to disagree with the whole " speak in tongues now" thing, to me it doesn't seem right I hope god keeps blessing you over and over again.
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kdet
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I have been to some of those churches and they left me feeling as if something was wrong with me...that is not edifying to the church or to God..pentecostal girl said:There are churches that teach that in order for you to heaven you must speak in tongues. I'm Church of God and we believe that speaking in tongues is the inital evidence of the HS.We don't believe that speaking in tongues is going to affect your salvation in any way. But some churches teach that
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Godz Marine
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didaskalos said:
I am reading what you are saying but it appears you are saying something the Bible isn't. You are taking certain scriptures and applying your interpretation to them.
Yes, we are filled with Christ's Spirit at our conversion but this is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit did not come on Christ until He was baptized by John. From then on He operated under the leading of the Holy Spirit.
As by the evidence provided by the Bible, in the book of Acts, no one spoke in tongues until they were filled with the Holy Spirit and power. As we read of these accounts in Acts it is clear that along with power comes the ability to speak in tongues. It is quite clear they go hand in hand.
Yes, it is clear that you make a distinction between the two spirits but the only two types of tongues mentioned within the Bible is the tongue for the exhortation of the church; body of Christ and our personal; tongue by which we encourage and benefit our spirit and build up our faith.
Paul made quite clear the distinction of what tongues are. He said it is the tongue of angels, not of Christ. I can cry out :Abba" but this is understood by the understanding and Paul clearly says that "tongues" are not comprehended by our natural understanding and requires an interpretation. "Abba" does not require an interpretation but for some may require a definition.
As for Jesus' proclamation in Mark 16, at the time He made it He already knew that the Holy Spirit would be sent in His stead. He even told the disciples that it was imparitive that He (Jesus) depart so that the Father could send the Holy Spirit. In His (Jesus) proclamation He even said that those who believed who do signs that would require the power of the Holy Spirit, including speaking in tongues.
Speaking in words that are intelligable to the body of hearers is not tongues. Words of such are considered prophecy, knowledge, discernment or simply exhortation or worship. The Bible is quite clear that a "tongue" requires an interpretation if it is spoken to the body of Christ. Personal tongues need no interpretation unless we ask for it.
No matter what we cry out, as long as it is of the Word of God, the Holy Spirit will bear witness, He can do nothing but. We cannot call Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit as Jesus said of Peter.
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Trish1947
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The men that Paul ran across that we're preaching the Gospel, he made no comment to them that they did not belong to Christ, and he did not admonish them to stop preaching, So apparently they had received the Spirit of Christ, through their faith in Him only, However, he did ask them "have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed, they answered that they had not even heard that there was a Holy Spirit, So, he said I'll show you a more excellent way, and laid hands on them to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. When he said more excellent way, They we're being empowered by Christ to have a more effective ministry, a closer relationship through the Spirit, gifts, fruits in thier life. These men we're saved because they believed in Him only. So these are two different, distinct manifestations of the Spirit of God.
Side note: This is only my opinion so bear with me.
when people say to me, "I dont know if I
have been Baptized in the Holy Spirit or not.
Trust me, you no longer have any doubt at
all, after you HAVE received. The question
has been answered by the witness that dwells
within you.
Side note: This is only my opinion so bear with me.
when people say to me, "I dont know if I
have been Baptized in the Holy Spirit or not.
Trust me, you no longer have any doubt at
all, after you HAVE received. The question
has been answered by the witness that dwells
within you.
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You are quite right in your logic sister.Trish1947 said:
People most certainly are saved prior to being baptized with the Holy Spirit. They have the Spirit of Christ born into them at the new birth and that spirit cries "Abba" to it's father proving that it is in fact born again.
Thanks again for your comments.
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That could have been my infamous (gulp!) Are Pentecostal/Charismatics anti-intellectual? thread. I am still nursing some lumps (and bruised knuckles) over that one!!didaskalos said:A member started a thread tonight that put forth a number of questions regarding Charismatic teachings. The thread was quickly and rightly closed by one of the mods. I agree that it should have been shut down because of the way in which the items were presented. If any non-Charismatics have questions about what Charismatics believe and wants to present them here, please feel free. In keeping with the rules of the forum, you may present questions, but not debate with those who respond. I hope the mods of this forum will allow this thread to remain open as long as the rules are followed and as long as the thread is productive. It is not really my call since I am not Moderator in this forum, but I do participate quite a bit in the discussions.
Rest assured, there are a number of Charismatics here who are very capable of defending their faith.
Blessings In Jesus
Didy
But I wanted to make an observation.
Evangelicals would consider me a Charismatic (I speak in tongues) and Charismatics would consider me Evangelical (because I do not accept the Charismatic label). Frankly, I do not know what I am, at least in mens eyes, and really do not care. My response to the question, are you Charismatic or Evangelical is, "No and Yes." Go figure!
But I wanted to say that I believe that facing objections to what I believe is both healthy and necessary for me to grow in the knowledge of my Savior Jesus Christ. I do not mind participating in a forum or discussion where even my most cherished beliefs are challenged and I always try (sometimes successfully) to listen carefully to what is being said, weigh opposing arguments against scripture, and respond in the most loving manner I can muster. I am Charismatic enough to value my experiences and Evangelical enough to accept the Word of God as the final authority on beliefs and practices (sola scriptura).
In other words, I think we need to listen to objections and consider them in the light of truth without always trying to defend our position as though we can never be wrong. Sometimes I am wrong. I hate to admit it. But I am a seeker and will be until I die. The fact is we never really find all the truth (I am not sying the Truth, capital T) we are seeking but IMHO, the joy is really in the searching and not in the finding. And we are always finding new things about the Way. (Acts 9.2; 18.25-26; 24.22).
That requires an open mind and heart.
IMHO
\o/
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'Giant in the Faith' Theologian Encourages Pentecostalism
Theologian C. Peter Wagner fought with Pentecostals years ago, but after an encounter with the Holy Spirit he became one of the world's leading proponents of spiritual renewal.
Wagner, 73, the former cessationist who fought Pentecostals in the 1960s but later experienced the baptism in the Holy Spirit, is doing more to encourage Pentecostalism than any theologian on the planet. He has written 62 books, the most popular title being "Your Spiritual Gifts Can Make Your Church Grow," which has sold 250,000 copies.
The polite-looking scientist is a grass-roots reformer whose favorite sport is overturning the tables of today's stodgy religious establishment.
"I hate the spirit of religion," Wagner told "Charisma" magazine in the February issue, out now. The full profile on Wagner can be found in the magazine. "The spirit of religion's assignment is to prevent the body of Christ from moving into the next season. It tries to maintain the status quo."
Unlike many academicians who write at a tedious college-reading level, Wagner is a populist who tries to reach average laypeople. None of his books ever hit a best-seller list, but total sales of all his titles is more than 2 million copies.
Considering that many of his books are used in seminaries, Bible colleges and independent church-training centers and are available in 25 languages, Wagner's impact seems staggering.
"Peter's contributions have always pushed us forward," says his pastor, Ted Haggard who leads New Life Church (NLC) in Colorado Springs, Colo. "He's a continual student, always learning and writing about his discoveries. He's an innovative creator and an adventurous pioneer."
Alice Smith, executive director of the U.S. Prayer Center in Houston, adds: "There's no doubt in my mind that future generations will look back and consider Peter Wagner a giant in the faith like D.L. Moody, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Finney or Charles Spurgeon."
Although he still teaches part time at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, Calif., where he has taught since 1973, Wagner left the confines of the seminary several years ago to find room to grow.
A free thinker who can't be boxed in, he needed a new home and younger associates who would be more supportive of his unconventional philosophy of missions and church growth.
He found this home in 1996 in Colorado Springs, where he established his own ministry, Global Harvest, and a 21st century extension seminary called the Wagner Leadership Institute with a current enrollment of 750 students.
Today, Wagner's primary focus is on how the charismatic renewal is changing the 21st century church. His theory, which he articulated in 1999 in "Churchquake!", states that Christianity is being redefined by new, independent church networks that are governed by modern-day apostles. Before long, Wagner believes denominations as we know them will take a back seat as these newer groups grow.
"I don't condemn the old networks," Wagner says. "But people are now realizing that they have spent 30 or 40 years trying to pour new wine into old wineskins. They are attempting the impossible."
Theologian C. Peter Wagner fought with Pentecostals years ago, but after an encounter with the Holy Spirit he became one of the world's leading proponents of spiritual renewal.
Wagner, 73, the former cessationist who fought Pentecostals in the 1960s but later experienced the baptism in the Holy Spirit, is doing more to encourage Pentecostalism than any theologian on the planet. He has written 62 books, the most popular title being "Your Spiritual Gifts Can Make Your Church Grow," which has sold 250,000 copies.
The polite-looking scientist is a grass-roots reformer whose favorite sport is overturning the tables of today's stodgy religious establishment.
"I hate the spirit of religion," Wagner told "Charisma" magazine in the February issue, out now. The full profile on Wagner can be found in the magazine. "The spirit of religion's assignment is to prevent the body of Christ from moving into the next season. It tries to maintain the status quo."
Unlike many academicians who write at a tedious college-reading level, Wagner is a populist who tries to reach average laypeople. None of his books ever hit a best-seller list, but total sales of all his titles is more than 2 million copies.
Considering that many of his books are used in seminaries, Bible colleges and independent church-training centers and are available in 25 languages, Wagner's impact seems staggering.
"Peter's contributions have always pushed us forward," says his pastor, Ted Haggard who leads New Life Church (NLC) in Colorado Springs, Colo. "He's a continual student, always learning and writing about his discoveries. He's an innovative creator and an adventurous pioneer."
Alice Smith, executive director of the U.S. Prayer Center in Houston, adds: "There's no doubt in my mind that future generations will look back and consider Peter Wagner a giant in the faith like D.L. Moody, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Finney or Charles Spurgeon."
Although he still teaches part time at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, Calif., where he has taught since 1973, Wagner left the confines of the seminary several years ago to find room to grow.
A free thinker who can't be boxed in, he needed a new home and younger associates who would be more supportive of his unconventional philosophy of missions and church growth.
He found this home in 1996 in Colorado Springs, where he established his own ministry, Global Harvest, and a 21st century extension seminary called the Wagner Leadership Institute with a current enrollment of 750 students.
Today, Wagner's primary focus is on how the charismatic renewal is changing the 21st century church. His theory, which he articulated in 1999 in "Churchquake!", states that Christianity is being redefined by new, independent church networks that are governed by modern-day apostles. Before long, Wagner believes denominations as we know them will take a back seat as these newer groups grow.
"I don't condemn the old networks," Wagner says. "But people are now realizing that they have spent 30 or 40 years trying to pour new wine into old wineskins. They are attempting the impossible."
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CJ.23
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I only have a minute, and it's not necessarily an objection to Charismatic teachings: I regard all Christians as charismatics, as they all recieve the gift of the Spirit. My objection can be summarised as an objection to Charismatic practice: choruses.
Yes, Choruses. Those amazing irritatingly repetitive things designed to fill our hearts with praise, but which in me just induce rage, tedium or nausea. I know lots of people love them, but I can't stick em. Let me thunder out old hymns like Pilgrims Progress, Abide with Me or the like. I love them, thay make me feel something, and I love to sing them loud to the Glory of Our Lord.
If only I could find a Charismatic Church which would sing an occasional song more than fifty years old! I grew up with these hymns, and they are my way of expressing my love to God. I am pretty close in my heart to Charismatic Christainity, but the music has driven me away many times.
Actually I've nothing against choruses - they are just not me! They are a fine way of worshipping God, and at least as good as mine, but personal tastes...
I do actually have one small query on Charismatic practice: I have worked for years in psychical research, and people who speak in tongues are not limited to Christians, and some of the Toronto Experience style slaying in the spirit reminded me of other spirit cult religions; body movement, the falling, the ecstatic states. This leads me to a question of discernment: what lies outside of the natural, and is anything supernatural happening? And if there is, how can we tell it differs from other religions simlar spirit filled/possessed worshippers? How do we know if it is of God? And does it feature in worship historically before the 18th century when other spirit religions began to emerge in the New World?
cj x
Yes, Choruses. Those amazing irritatingly repetitive things designed to fill our hearts with praise, but which in me just induce rage, tedium or nausea.
I know lots of people love them, but I can't stick em. Let me thunder out old hymns like Pilgrims Progress, Abide with Me or the like. I love them, thay make me feel something, and I love to sing them loud to the Glory of Our Lord. If only I could find a Charismatic Church which would sing an occasional song more than fifty years old! I grew up with these hymns, and they are my way of expressing my love to God. I am pretty close in my heart to Charismatic Christainity, but the music has driven me away many times.
Actually I've nothing against choruses - they are just not me! They are a fine way of worshipping God, and at least as good as mine, but personal tastes...
I do actually have one small query on Charismatic practice: I have worked for years in psychical research, and people who speak in tongues are not limited to Christians, and some of the Toronto Experience style slaying in the spirit reminded me of other spirit cult religions; body movement, the falling, the ecstatic states. This leads me to a question of discernment: what lies outside of the natural, and is anything supernatural happening? And if there is, how can we tell it differs from other religions simlar spirit filled/possessed worshippers? How do we know if it is of God? And does it feature in worship historically before the 18th century when other spirit religions began to emerge in the New World?
cj x
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Hmmm..CJ.23 said:I only have a minute, and it's not necessarily an objection to Charismatic teachings: I regard all Christians as charismatics, as they all recieve the gift of the Spirit. My objection can be summarised as an objection to Charismatic practice: choruses.
Yes, Choruses. Those amazing irritatingly repetitive things designed to fill our hearts with praise, but which in me just induce rage, tedium or nausea.
If only I could find a Charismatic Church which would sing an occasional song more than fifty years old! I grew up with these hymns, and they are my way of expressing my love to God. I am pretty close in my heart to Charismatic Christainity, but the music has driven me away many times.
Actually I've nothing against choruses - they are just not me! They are a fine way of worshipping God, and at least as good as mine, but personal tastes...
That is a first for objections.
I grew up in the Episcopalian church where there were nothing but the ancient hymns, chants, and responsive readings. I love the choruses! They were a breath of fresh air to me. Shortly after I was baptized with the Holy Spirit I began to prophesy psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. "New Songs"
(See my signature....)
I guess it could just be a matter of choice.
You may be surprized to hear that I actually agree with you on the idea that all spirits have the capacity to provide utterance for tongues. The study I have done is quite extensive and really deserves it's own thread. But you ask a question as to how do we know if the spirit is not of God. This is precisely why God gives us tests to determine if the inspiration is from God. If the spirit can confess that Jesus is Lord, that He is come in the Flesh, and that He rose from the dead, then that spirit is of God. If it denies any of these or says Jesus is accursed, then that spirit is not of God.
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Bring it on lady!Quaffer said:Yay diddy. . .
Hey... we are both 50 now.
Are we "pentagenerians"????
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CJ.23
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didaskalos said:
Laughs, yes! Maybe I am odd! I really believe that God wants us to praise him, and praise him in our hearts. I just never came to like choruses!
Still, most of my friends adore them, and they are as I said great in their own way - they have a direct simplicity, and an affirmation of ones own joy and ones own praise which maybe lacks in the old hymns. Still, I do love the old hymms! didaskalos said:
Oh yes, I agree totally. I lack any gift of discernment of spirits, but I am pretty sure that the test is do they confess Christ as Lord and are the prophecies and words given consistent with Scripture. I don't doubt people can be misled, either by their own desires, emotions or other spirits. I'm just curious as to how a chap like me can guard against it. I'd like to see that thread on your research - if you ever do startit, can you private message me? The forum is so vast I tend to lose track of what is being discussed, and I really would be interested.
cj x
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