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Objecting/Breaking and unjust law

rambot

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I am an English teacher in Korea. I teach in a public elementary school.
I am also a musician, performing biweekly at a local pub. To top it off, I also love to act.

The first is my job. The rest are my hobbies, things I do out of personal interest and things for which I refuse payment.

Recently, I performed in a play called "Babopalooza" (babo meaning "fool" in Korean) which did quite the job of teasing Koreans AND foreigners alike about eccentricities and basically had fun with life in Korea. The play was incredibly well received with a stand ovation on the first night and hearty applause the second.
Unfortunately, an undercover cop was in the audience for this particular show and she took 'great offense' to the content, even though as she was leaving (early) I asked her what she thought and she said she liked it.
Well, myself and other performers were on something called an "E2" visa which we took to understand that we could not participate in any money making ventures.
The producers (on the same visa) charged just enough money that they KNEW they would lose money on the production, just not thousands of dollars. The actors, at NO point received money.
[I TRULELY am getting to the point]
Since the police have been investigating this show the foreigner community has become bitterly divided. That saddens everyone.

My point: In essence, the E2 visa reads: "The teacher shall refrain from activities that are not outlined in their contract or permitted by the school".

That means that literally, we cannot (legally) even busk....heck, we can't even play music OUTSIDE on a park bench because it is not a perscribed activity in our contract. This would require us to get school permission, go down to the immi office and pay about 60$.

It should be noted, however, that Korea and many of the locals have an interesting (unofficial) legal set up. There seems to be rules upon rules regulating everything but the cops selectively choose to enforce rules.
For example, there are probably over 100 foreigner bands with members violating their visa; probably thousands of foreign teacher (FTs) who are [this is GRANT!] illegally volunteering in orphanages. I'd wager every foreign teacher in Korea has broken the OFFICIAL terms of their visa at least a dozen times.


I have hunted around the internet looking for an official government page that explicitly explain in ENGLISH what is permissible on an E2 visa and haven't really came close enough to something legally binding. It seems the government is keeping the rules from us.
So that is the set up.

Now, my question the CFites (and you don't have to make it relative to my situation but generally speaking):

How do you feel about unjust laws? Would you fight to uphold it because it IS a law (as some foreigners are doing)? Would you struggle to dismantle it? Would you break it and hope to avoid the concequences? If the situation is relative, in which cases would you do what?

I have come to the realization that my liberal tendancies from university are still engrained in my head but my cowardice is making it difficult to become fully enraged.

I will say this: Once the whole punishment thing passes, there are going to be some foreigners getting an EARFUL from me, I tells ya.
 
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Personally, I ignore an unjust law

but not to an extent where I may be punished for it,

I am going my own way, and the law can go its own way, and I will not go against the law, so far at to face judgment, but If i disagree with the law, I believe I have enough morale to decide right from wrong, to say that my way, trumps the law
 
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rambot

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hmmm... just read something interesting about Korea over here (and I'm canadian). First off though:
If you are an American then you are obligated to follow Korean law in Korea.
If you are a HUMAN BEING you are obliged to follow the rules of any country. Whether you choose to is something else.

Anyways, I've read that, in Korea they have the "Rule by Law" instead of "Rule of Law". What's the difference?

RbyL (like in Korea) means that it is virtually impossible to follow all rules set in place. IOW rules are meant to be broken. Generally speaking, this is overlooked until the police (or some other body) CHOOSE to act upon the law.

RofL (as with the civilized western world) we ONLY have rules that must be followed and cops take a very stringent attitude in their enforcement.


I personally think that the Rule of Law, besides being more sensible, leads to a straightforward and honest society that encourages more trust in authorities. This Rule by Law makes everything subject to the enforcers.

Rambot no likey.
 
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YamiB

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I think that unjust laws should be broken by when people are willing to put themselve up in resitance to them. It seems a very odd position you are in and I don't think you are in a very strong place to stand against the government. That being because you're on a visa and you are I assume in the minority.
 
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Robinsegg

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We, as Christians, are commanded to follow the law of the government. To do otherwise is sin. However, we can fight to have the law changed while following the law. We can also choose to disregard the law, if it causes us to sin. Also, we are subject to the law, so if we choose to disobey, we must plead guilty when trial comes.

Remember, this was written to people under Roman law, which looked down upon "indiginous personnel", and gave preferential treatment to those born Romans. There was nothing fair about Roman law, but Christians are expected to follow the law of the land, and live in peace with others around us as much as it depends on us.

Rachel
 
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Robbie_James_Francis

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This is a subject about which I feel very strongly. Personally, morality and legality are two entirely different things, which have no bearing upon each other.

I think that not only is it acceptable to break laws that are unjust, but, if they are unjust to the extent that they prohibit good actions, then it is our duty to break them. For example, in Nazi Germany (I know this is a cliched example in ethics, but still) it was illegal to hide Jewish people. And yet, it was the moral duty of every citizen to do their best to protect those at risk from the Nazis. In this case, I think it is worth risking punishment to do what is right.

As you asked for a general opinion, I'll talk about another tier of laws too. These are laws that are unnecessary and immoral as they puhish unnecessarily, but that do not prohibit actions that are specifically moral. An example would be that of the laws against taking cannabis. In my opinion, it is morally acceptable to take cannabis and laws prohibiting this are ridiculous. But, since it is not postively morally good to take cannabis, it is not worth risking punishment. My attitude is to try to get away with it all the while fighting for legalisation, but that of others may be not to take the risk, and I undersatnd and respect that position.

What you have done/ are doing is definitely not, imho, immoral, whether it is illegal or not.

peace
 
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Merlin

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Are you being forced to work there?
Gunpoint? kids held prisoner?

It would seem to me that you have agreed to (contractually) follow certain rules.
I think you should honor your contractual agreements.
If it's a problem for you, find other work.
 
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Robbie_James_Francis

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Are you being forced to work there?
Gunpoint? kids held prisoner?

It would seem to me that you have agreed to (contractually) follow certain rules.
I think you should honor your contractual agreements.
If it's a problem for you, find other work.

Surely it is better to do what is right than to follow any human agreement, contract or even law? Do we not all need people to stand up against injustice, especially when it is legalised injustice? Where would we be today without people like Nelson Mandela or the French and Polish Resistance in WW2?

peace
 
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Merlin

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Surely it is better to do what is right than to follow any human agreement, contract or even law? Do we not all need people to stand up against injustice, especially when it is legalised injustice? Where would we be today without people like Nelson Mandela or the French and Polish Resistance in WW2?

peace

The issue of the OP (which I was responding to) is not about injustice, but rather inconvenience.
 
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rambot

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Couple things.

1) Are you being forced to work there?
Gunpoint? kids held prisoner?

2) It would seem to me that you have agreed to (contractually) follow certain rules.
I think you should honor your contractual agreements.
If it's a problem for you, find other work.
1) Allow me to take this sentence as you didn't intend.
Yes, I am being forced to work THERE. That is, I can only work THERE. I can't work ANYWHERE else.
I accept this. My problem is that the government doesn't use the word WORK, it uses the word "activities" (as in, I can only partake of activities that are directly related to my contract). This SEVERLY limits what I can do. I can't go shopping for food; I can't play my guitar outside my house; I can't visit friends; I can NEVER talk to a Korean in the subway or have korean friends (for fear that they may be learning something while I talk with them).
2) I don't really appreciate that you don't really know what my contract says but feel happy to comment on it.
My contract (not the LAW) says that I "shall not hold any other job". I didn't hold ANY other job. In fact, the school I am teaching is LOVES me and has done everything in their power to help me (it is the distict office that will be causing me problems if anyone).

rambot.
 
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billwald

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"RbyL (like in Korea) means that it is virtually impossible to follow all rules set in place. IOW rules are meant to be broken. Generally speaking, this is overlooked until the police (or some other body) CHOOSE to act upon the law."

Sounds like driving on the freeway in the USofA and Canada.
 
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rambot

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Billwald, I know that was meant as a joke but if you were to come and drive in Korea, I can aSSURE you that you'd realize how utterly wrong you are. Driving in South Korea, if you don't figure out the "generalities of the road" (a term I coined) you have a sure means of death.
It can be terrifying. And everytime I go home, I get honked....a LOT because I've turned into a right JERK when I drive.
 
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Robinsegg

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Couple things.

1) Allow me to take this sentence as you didn't intend.
Yes, I am being forced to work THERE. That is, I can only work THERE. I can't work ANYWHERE else.
I accept this. My problem is that the government doesn't use the word WORK, it uses the word "activities" (as in, I can only partake of activities that are directly related to my contract). This SEVERLY limits what I can do. I can't go shopping for food; I can't play my guitar outside my house; I can't visit friends; I can NEVER talk to a Korean in the subway or have korean friends (for fear that they may be learning something while I talk with them).
I think the question was more "are you being forced to work in S. Korea?" than "are you being forced to work at that school?". In which case, the question is not, "why don't you find another place of employment?" but "why don't you go to another country?"

Rachel
 
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Merlin

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Couple things.

1) Allow me to take this sentence as you didn't intend.
Yes, I am being forced to work THERE. That is, I can only work THERE. I can't work ANYWHERE else.

You're in a prison?
You had no choice but to accept that contract?

I accept this. My problem is that the government doesn't use the word WORK, it uses the word "activities" (as in, I can only partake of activities that are directly related to my contract). This SEVERLY limits what I can do. I can't go shopping for food; I can't play my guitar outside my house; I can't visit friends; I can NEVER talk to a Korean in the subway or have korean friends (for fear that they may be learning something while I talk with them).

When in a foreign prison, options are limited :(


2) I don't really appreciate that you don't really know what my contract says but feel happy to comment on it.

I don't need to know what the contract says to know right from wrong.
 
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rppearso

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The problem is to contest a laws constituionality you have to be convicted of that law, which presents a problem because if the law is not overturned in the supreme court you go to jail. If a large enough group believes there nations laws have gone to far you will end up with a civil war, the problem with that is you want to make sure you have the resources and man power to have a fruitful civil war or you will go to jail as a common criminal. The spirit of the scripture that states you must follow your nations laws does not imply that you should tolerate injustice or human rights violations. If you followed all laws you would not be able to be a christian or own a bible in the old soviet union which is not consistant with the bible or God. You have to keep everything in perspective, if you are having to tolerate nonsense or inconvience you should take a step back to look at the bigger picture, asian culture (save Japan because we nuked them to bring them down a peg or two from there high and mighty attitude) are very oppressive compared to the USA and the people tolerate it because they wont take up arms against there government (in this day and time you almost need a suit case nuclear weapon to send any real message that anyone will listen to). Why not just go to the USA or europe and call it a day.
 
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rambot

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You're in a prison?
You had no choice but to accept that contract?
This is not a contractual issue. I still have my job. Not only that but my school division appreciates my work (and doesn't even CARE about this) to the point where I have been asked to speak at a conference to Korean teachers.

I don't need to know what the contract says to know right from wrong.
Well obviously you DON'T know right from wrong because you keep saying vepid and meaningless things without actually raising a salient point nor actually reading what I have wrote.

If you think it's right that the government of ANY country has the RIGHT to control AND know about ALL the actions of ANYONE residing in the country, you have an INCREDIBLY warped view of right and wrong.

Again, according to the letter of the law, I am not allowed to travel up to seoul to go shopping; I am not allowed to go shopping for basic sustinence (let alone luxury items); I'm not even allowed to travel within Korea (as that should ACTUALLY be covered by a tourist visa and not my E2 working visa); I'm not allowed to do volunteer work in an orphanage; I'm not allowed to play guitar OUTSIDE of my house (be it in a park or in a bar) regardless of whether or not I get money; I'm not allowed to attend or participate in a poetry reading. I'm not allowed to do ANY of these things unless I tell immigration that I will do them and if I pay 30$ everytime I do it.

So does that seem right, heck....REASONABLE to you?

asian culture (save Japan because we nuked them to bring them down a peg or two from there high and mighty attitude) are very oppressive compared to the USA and the people tolerate it because they wont take up arms against there government (in this day and time you almost need a suit case nuclear weapon to send any real message that anyone will listen to).
AS I've said elsewhere, Korea is a country full of nice enough people that is being squelched and made to look like fools by their institutions.
Government officials in Korea ROUTINELY take bribes (part of the gift giving culture); there is an institutionalized bias AGAINST all foreigners (to say nothing of the cultural bias); to the point where foreign publications are considered public property and don't require citations (not that it matters because professors and uni+college deans ROUTINELY plagarize)

You want to read an inconvinient truth about Korea? Forget this silly little law, read this article:
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200507/200507030027.html
A Country of Liars
 
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