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[timothyu]

Using these verses to support nationalism is unfortunate and misguided.

Nationalism as we see with Trump, or globalism as we see with the WEF and Corporatism, its all the same. Selfishness unchained. It's man's will over the Will of God and doomed to failure. And yet the world looks for another worldly messiah just as the Jews once did. They will get it too and then the futility of it all will be seen as we use God to our advantage one final time, rather than changing ourselves to suit His Will..

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Not so. It is possible today just as it was in the time of those who lived in the ways pf the Kingdom, The Way. We can never as humans be free of the sin nature of man, self-awareness, but we can by our fruits show our allegiance is to the Kingdom rather than the self-serving ways of mankind in a world we have made in our own image. This civilization was made by our own will, not God's. God made it clear since the beginning, His Will first, not ours. Jesus reinforced that by twice stating in the Lord's Prayer, His Will would be done, no longer ours allowed.

You're suggesting that God has nothing to do with how human authorities govern themselves and influence others? Does man ultimately control his own Destiny free of God? That's almost Nitzchean.

 

[timothyu]

Does man ultimately control his own Destiny free of God?

Man tries.. even within Christianity

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Judging that your initial challenge concerned post-resurrection passages, I assume you're already aware that God deals with nations and peoples in the Hebrew scriptures. You're arguing that such things are not God's concern in the Greek scriptures. So far, you have not been able to deal with the passages I've presented to you. If your theology is unable to incorporate these passages, then you may need to reevaluate your theology.

Concerning Acts 17, you're correct. Paul explains to the Athenians that all nations descended from Adam. What else does Paul say? He says God "hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation." I'm not sure how many times this will need to be pointed out to you before you either (a) accept it or (b) deal with it. So far, you have chosen to ignore it.

You continue to insist that I have taken Romans 9:3 out of context, but you and I have both gone through the context together. Paul, a Jew, is mourning for his fellow Jews who have rejected Christ. Paul tells us why he is mourning for them in particular, why he would "wish that myself were accursed from Christ": The Jews are his "brethren" and his "kinsmen according to the flesh."

At least we seem to agree on what the passage in 1 Timothy 5 means. Now, do these passages support nationalism? I wouldn't make that claim. Are they compatible with nationalism? Absolutely. The Bible doesn't teach us to be nationalists, but it doesn't dissuade us either.

You are correct. In the Old Testament, God cared for, nurtured, and protected the nation of Israel. God provided instructions and laws to the nation of Israel on how to govern a country. What was the objective of the nation of Israel? The objective was to send His son on earth.

Since Christ came on earth and resurrected, the kingdom of God is not of this world. he who love the world is not part of the kingdom of God. these is the teaching of entire New testament. These is the entire message of New Testament.

But you keep insisting 1-2 Bible verses to create doctrine.

In Acts 17, Paul speaks of God as the sole living creator. Do you think he was addressing earthly nations or nationalism? How sad it is that mankind take glory of God and use it for earthly political purpose.

The Book of Romans emphasizes salvation through grace alone. It teaches that faith is the sole pathway to being saved. It is sad that human take those word of God out of context to use their earthy desire.

 

[Durham Cicero]

You are correct. In the Old Testament, God cared for, nurtured, and protected the nation of Israel. God provided instructions and laws to the nation of Israel on how to govern a country. What was the objective of the nation of Israel? The objective was to send His son on earth.

Since Christ came on earth and resurrected, the kingdom of God is not of this world. he who love the world is not part of the kingdom of God. these is the teaching of entire New testament. These is the entire message of New Testament.

But you keep insisting 1-2 Bible verses to create doctrine.

In Acts 17, Paul speaks of God as the sole living creator. Do you think he was addressing earthly nations or nationalism? How sad it is that mankind take glory of God and use it for earthly political purpose.

The Book of Romans emphasizes salvation through grace alone. It teaches that faith is the sole pathway to being saved. It is sad that human take those word of God out of context to use their earthy desire.

I'm not creating any sort of doctrine. If I were arguing something along the lines of "these passages show that Christians ought to be nationalists," then you'd have a point. That is not what I'm arguing, though. I am arguing that nationalism is not precluded by Christianity. There is nothing contradictory about someone being both a Christian and a nationalist. (Not to be confused with the talk about "Christian nationalism" that's currently in the media.) I'd hardly call that a doctrine. As for you, you have created a doctrine. Namely, you are arguing that Christianity is incompatible with nationalism. And yet we see here in scriptures that (a) God is involved in the existence of nations, (b) it is appropriate for us to have a special interest in our own people, and (c) it is our duty to care for our own families. Nationalism in its most broad form is merely (d) the interest in preserving one's own nation (which God has established), (e) a special concern for one's own people, and (f) a special concern for one's own family. How, then, is that incompatible with what's found in the Bible?

I wouldn't consider nationalism a form of "loving the world" such that one who engages in it cannot be part of the Kingdom. Does loving one's family mean that one is loving the world? Does loving one's dog mean that one is loving the world? Does loving one's vocation mean that one is loving the world? Does loving these things preclude one from being part of the Kingdom? I suppose some may argue that, but I believe it's without warrant.

In Acts 17:26, yes, Paul is talking about earthly nations. You haven't provided an alternative explanation. What else would Paul be talking about? From one blood (Adam) came all nations. God determined their existence and set their boundaries. These are earthly nations. What else would they be?

I have not disputed that faith is the sole pathway to being saved. Paul knew that, of course. That's why he was so distraught by the lack of faith in his fellow Jews. He desperately wanted them to have faith in Christ. If that's an "earthly desire," then take it up with Paul. He expressed it quite plainly.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

I'm not creating any sort of doctrine. If I were arguing something along the lines of "these passages show that Christians ought to be nationalists," then you'd have a point. That is not what I'm arguing, though. I am arguing that nationalism is not precluded by Christianity. There is nothing contradictory about someone being both a Christian and a nationalist. (Not to be confused with the talk about "Christian nationalism" that's currently in the media.) I'd hardly call that a doctrine. As for you, you have created a doctrine. Namely, you are arguing that Christianity is incompatible with nationalism. And yet we see here in scriptures that (a) God is involved in the existence of nations, (b) it is appropriate for us to have a special interest in our own people, and (c) it is our duty to care for our own families. Nationalism in its most broad form is merely (d) the interest in preserving one's own nation (which God has established), (e) a special concern for one's own people, and (f) a special concern for one's own family. How, then, is that incompatible with what's found in the Bible?

I wouldn't consider nationalism a form of "loving the world" such that one who engages in it cannot be part of the Kingdom. Does loving one's family mean that one is loving the world? Does loving one's dog mean that one is loving the world? Does loving one's vocation mean that one is loving the world? Does loving these things preclude one from being part of the Kingdom? I suppose some may argue that, but I believe it's without warrant.

In Acts 17:26, yes, Paul is talking about earthly nations. You haven't provided an alternative explanation. What else would Paul be talking about? From one blood (Adam) came all nations. God determined their existence and set their boundaries. These are earthly nations. What else would they be?

I have not disputed that faith is the sole pathway to being saved. Paul knew that, of course. That's why he was so distraught by the lack of faith in his fellow Jews. He desperately wanted them to have faith in Christ. If that's an "earthly desire," then take it up with Paul. He expressed it quite plainly.

In the Old Testament, the nation of Israel had a DIVINE purpose: to prepare for the coming of the Son of God who would save humanity.

What DIVINE purpose we have today to have a nation like America or UK or India?

 

[timothyu]

What DIVINE purpose we have today to have a nation like America or UK or India?

Just like the Gentiles of the Roman Empire once took the Christianity of Judah and made it over in their own image, likewise today also do the empires. As a result the truth within scripture gets forwarded even if the religion fails.

 

[Durham Cicero]

In the Old Testament, the nation of Israel had a DIVINE purpose: to prepare for the coming of the Son of God who would save humanity.

What DIVINE purpose we have today to have a nation like America or UK or India?

Every nation recorded in the Hebrew scriptures had a divine purpose. Sometimes, the divine purpose was to punish Israel. Sometimes it was to show the glory of God in Israel's triumph over them. Are you suggesting in your question that nations such as the US, UK, or India have no divine purpose? God has no plan for them? He is indifferent toward them? Obviously, the divine purpose of the US, to take just one example, isn't as clearly spelled out as the divine purpose for Israel in the Hebrew scriptures. I could hazard some guesses, though. The US has been instrumental throughout world history for the past 200+ years. I think most of the Christians who have a penchant for analyzing world history in light of God's divine plan tend to look at the US' divine purpose in a negative light. I, however, am tempted to point to the US' role in shaping the trajectory of Christianity, particularly Protestantism. The US played crucial roles in undermining the old orders of Europe in WWI, the fascism of Europe in WWII, and global Marxist-Leninism during the Cold War years. I think of all those things as positives, and arguably falling within God's divine providence.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Just like the Gentiles of the Roman Empire once took the Christianity of Judah and made it over in their own image, likewise today also do the empires. As a result the truth within scripture gets forwarded even if the religion fails.

Could you provide a scripture reference? Can you cite a New Testament verse that indicates the role of a nation or government in preaching the gospel?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Every nation recorded in the Hebrew scriptures had a divine purpose. Sometimes, the divine purpose was to punish Israel. Sometimes it was to show the glory of God in Israel's triumph over them. Are you suggesting in your question that nations such as the US, UK, or India have no divine purpose? God has no plan for them? He is indifferent toward them? Obviously, the divine purpose of the US, to take just one example, isn't as clearly spelled out as the divine purpose for Israel in the Hebrew scriptures. I could hazard some guesses, though. The US has been instrumental throughout world history for the past 200+ years. I think most of the Christians who have a penchant for analyzing world history in light of God's divine plan tend to look at the US' divine purpose in a negative light. I, however, am tempted to point to the US' role in shaping the trajectory of Christianity, particularly Protestantism. The US played crucial roles in undermining the old orders of Europe in WWI, the fascism of Europe in WWII, and global Marxist-Leninism during the Cold War years. I think of all those things as positives, and arguably falling within God's divine providence.

You wrote the passage without citing any verses. I'm not interested in man-made doctrine. These statements reflect personal opinions and are not related to biblical theology.

 

[Durham Cicero]

You wrote the passage without citing any verses. I'm not interested in man-made doctrine. These statements reflect personal opinions and are not related to biblical theology.

For the sake of clarity, do you not believe God has a divine purpose for nations? Do they serve no purpose in God's divine providence?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

For the sake of clarity, do you not believe God has a divine purpose for nations? Do they serve no purpose in God's divine providence?

There is no divine purpose for a nation. There is not a single verse in the New Testament to support such an idea.

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus and other authors emphasize that believers should live as though they are not of this world.

Since the resurrection of Jesus, the church has represented the Kingdom of God on earth. Everything that God aims to accomplish today is fulfilled through the church, which constitutes the body of Christ.

 

[ARBITER01]

Is Jesus an American patriot?

Yes, and He has an American flag next to His throne.

I kid obviously,... maybe.

I think it was last year when I had been spending quite a bit of time in researching a lot of political things online, when I brought the topic up to GOD about our country and the things that were going on in it. At that moment I heard The Lord Jesus say "It's my country also." When GOD speaks to us the understanding(s) are normally given at that moment, and I was given the immediate understanding that Jesus had staked this country out as His own from the start, and went through all the troubles and hardship with mankind building this country into a hub of Christianity that can reach the world.

He's quite aware of what's going on with our country, and no matter what the false prophets say, it's not going to be judged and done away with. Jesus has invested a great amount of effort and time into our country, and He is not about to just turn around and give up on it.

 

[timothyu]

They are all His. Division is between this world and the Kingdom, not between nations