Nudism

[tgg]

Hi,

I was offended by obesity and general depreciation of the human body as I looked out of my head to see others, but never about my own physical condition. It was really weird.

Even though I am a nudist and naturist, I think Adiya has got a valid point. Obesity is an affront to both the LORD and to man, because it is the result of a disregard for the health and wellbeing of the body.

With them, I discarded the pretense that appearance is of the primary importance and consequently I could see beyond a person's appearance to realize that there was a human being inside of that body of flesh.

The truth is that we are still aesthetic beings. It seems what nudism does is warp our aesthetic sensibilities. If we believe in the body-mind-spirit connection, then an individual's personality can be manifested in the way their body looks. Obesity is both a physical and mental disorder, that some nudists have the hide to term 'beautiful'. Being overweight is the sign of insecurity and the need to hide behind a sense of inadequacy.

Bottom line, try it and you will probably find out that you appreciate some of us not so lovelies in a new and satisfying way.

Should the nudity make any difference? Not for me, it doesn't. There are some people who are just so horrid and obnoxious when naked (and I don't mean just physically naked either) that it would be better off if they covered up.

We don't automatically become better, accepting, tolerant beings just because we take our clothes off. Have a look at this site sometime, and you will see just how ugly some of these nudists are inside and out:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.nude


tgg

 

[Natman]

Obesity is both a physical and mental disorder, that some nudists have the hide to term 'beautiful'. Being overweight is the sign of insecurity and the need to hide behind a sense of inadequacy.

Not always. I have some friends that have thyroid problems make that anything short of sewing their mouths shut ineffective. In some cases, medication seems to help. in others, it is like shooting spit wads at a battle ship. These people are VERY beautiful on the inside and almost wrinkle-free on the outside.

There are some people who are just so horrid and obnoxious when naked (and I don't mean just physically naked either) that it would be better off if they covered up.

I agree with you 100% here. Although I can only think of a couple of people O have encountered like this. They are non-Christian or more appropriately, ant-Christian, and apparently only interested in one thing... perverted sexual activity. Like you say, they are the same whether they are cloted or not. However, I don't believe they would be better off covered up because they just become more subversive.

Son-cerely,
Nathan Powers

 

[Natman]

RC Sproul - "Covering the Shame (from "The Holiness of God")

On my way into work this morning, I heard RC Sproul discuss the topic of human nakedness in a radio broadcast titled "Covering the Shame" which is a excerpt from his book "The Holiness of God".
There are many positive comments relating to being naked and his closing remarks are great.

I think you should be able to listen to it by clicking on the following links...

http://broadcast.ligonier.org/playlists/rym20050920.m3u (Wind Media)

http://broadcast.ligonier.org/playlists/rym20050920.asx (Real Player)

Has anyone else taken the time to listen to this audio clip by RC Sproul?

Son-cerley,
Nathan Powers

 

[Johnnz]

Whereas I accept that some obesity is cased by overeating and poor diet I still have a major issue with calling such people repulsive. If they are Christians and God's Spirit lives within, then is God offended or repulsed by their bodies?

Jesus was alwys more concerned about people's insides, their hearts, than with their outward apperances.

John
NZ

 

[Doug45]

Hi,



Even though I am a nudist and naturist, I think Adiya has got a valid point. Obesity is an affront to both the LORD and to man, because it is the result of a disregard for the health and wellbeing of the body.



The truth is that we are still aesthetic beings. It seems what nudism does is warp our aesthetic sensibilities. If we believe in the body-mind-spirit connection, then an individual's personality can be manifested in the way their body looks. Obesity is both a physical and mental disorder, that some nudists have the hide to term 'beautiful'. Being overweight is the sign of insecurity and the need to hide behind a sense of inadequacy.



Should the nudity make any difference? Not for me, it doesn't. There are some people who are just so horrid and obnoxious when naked (and I don't mean just physically naked either) that it would be better off if they covered up.

We don't automatically become better, accepting, tolerant beings just because we take our clothes off. Have a look at this site sometime, and you will see just how ugly some of these nudists are inside and out:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.nude


tgg

I understand where you are coming from. It used to bother me as well. And I am quite aware that obesity is not the desired state for us as christians nor is it God's chosen image for us to bear. And in most cases, including mine, it is a result of poor eating/exercise habits. But I am accepted in the Beloved, obese or skinny.

The intriguing thing is that I could look out of my eyes and see others who were fat and not see my own condition. James tells us that if we violate one aspect of the law, we are guilty of the whole law because it is the same Person who defines His character with the different points of the law.

Because you are successful in maintaining your physique does not mean that you are successful in maintaining all the other aspects of the 'law'.

What God was after in me was the log in my eye while I looked silently upon another to remove the speck in their eye.

Thanks again for the reminder to work on my own overweight condition.

Blessings,

Doug

 

[Natman]

The problem I have with tgg's comments about "obesity" is also that the definition of "obesity" and a health physique changes with each new generation amd medical report.

We SHOULD take care of our bodies, not overburdening them with too many fat cells or toxic chemicals. Our bodies are the Temple of the Holy Spirit.

However, the primary focus needs to be on our "heart" condition and our relationship with the one who created us in the first place.

Son-cerley,
Nathan Powers

 

[Natman]

Here's another news article that refutes what some of the anti-naturism posters have had to say...

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05286/586617.stm

"Things are different in Europe, where nudity is so commonplace that it has become dull."

"Here, where thousands were nearly incapacitated by a split-second of nipple on TV, nudism is almost unthinkably subversive, or just depraved. But in Germany, where full nudity is common on TV, both do-it-yourself and league nudism have lost their cachet."

"American teens, for example, can wear their pants down around their hipbones to great effect, but in Cologne, a woman who popped out to do some grocery shopping wearing nothing but a jeans jacket couldn't even get arrested. And the jacket wasn't buttoned!"

"Maybe German youths and artists will have to wear muumuus to offend."

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

I'm not so sure about the woman in the jacket not getting arrested. A couple of years back, a man got arrested for jogging in the nude here in Germany, and besides, Cologne is a Catholic hot spot, featuring one of the most reactionary cardinals of the world.

Otherwise, the comments are right on, except for the fact that I wouldn't describe nudity as DULL. It's just not the big, scandalous no-no - at least not necessarily. I am not more likely to think of sex on a nude beach than at the opera, where everybody is wearing elegant dresses and suits.

 

[Electric Sceptic]

There's no doubt that parts of the western world - particularly the USA - have a huge neuroses about nudity. It's one of the symptoms of a sick culture (I believe). Just another legacy of religion...

 

[Natman]

There's no doubt that parts of the western world - particularly the USA - have a huge neuroses about nudity. It's one of the symptoms of a sick culture (I believe). Just another legacy of religion...

I do not believe that it is "religion" that has driven our "neuroses" about nudity or our "compulsion for clothing". In reality, it was the rise of something that was actually antithetical to religion, particularly Christian religion, Victorianism. (http://www.victorianweb.org/vn/victor4.html)

The rise of Victorianism or the Victorian Age is described as "the age of doubt" when it come to religion. Also, it is known as the era of "invention", beginning the notion that one can create solutions to problems, that man can create new means of bettering himself and his environment. This era brought us democracy, feminism, unionization of workers, socialism, Marxism, Marx, Freud and Darwin.

The Victorian model emphasized "self" control (rather than Christ control) of sexual desires by covering and removing ALL references to even the slightest possible thought of sexuality from sight and literature. They went so far as to even cover the legs of pianos and tables, lest it might cause you to THINK of a woman's bare leg.

On the surface it SEEMED to work, but there was a darker underside.

"There were more prostitutes per capita roaming the streets of London during this time than at any other period of that city's history. A flourishing trade in pornography and a profitable trade in virgins existed. Young girls were abducted: The going rate on the clandestine market fluctuated between five and forty Pounds, according to their age and beauty. After having been disgraced, these girls often joined the ranks of prostitutes."
Jorge Lewinski, "The Naked and The Nude" (New York: Harmony Books, 1987)

Also, the Victorian era was the beginning of the "clothes-make-the-man (or woman)" mindset as those of higher class and mobility were able to afford more and more elaborate styles of dress. It became very obvious which tier of the class structure one belonged to simply by looking at one's attire. The obvious solution became, "if you can't be nobility, at least dress like one." The competitive fashion industry was born and flourishes to this day.

If we stuck to reading our Bibles, everyone would see that it is not nudity that is the problem. It is a poor or non-existent relationship with God that is the problem.

SON-cerly,
Nathan Powers

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

I do not believe that it is "religion" that has driven our "neuroses" about nudity or our "compulsion for clothing". In reality, it was the rise of something that was actually antithetical to religion, particularly Christian religion, Victorianism.

The Victorian Era was the golden age of the Middle Class, and their values were largely based on and inspired by the more repressive elements of Christian ethics, cf. the Victorian definition of VIRTUE.

The rise of Victorianism or the Victorian Age is described as "the age of doubt" when it come to religion.

The middle class we are talking about here wasn't much into doubting and changing things, though. Being a good and CHASTE Christian was of extreme importance.

Also, it is known as the era of "invention", beginning the notion that one can create solutions to problems, that man can create new means of bettering himself and his environment. This era brought us democracy, feminism, unionization of workers, socialism, Marxism, Marx, Freud and Darwin.

And I guess your staunch Republican heart shudders at all those nasty evils. Unionization of workers! The horror! The horror! People trying to change things for the better! BLASPHEMY! Not to mention the abomination of democracy...

Maybe you should read what the poor quarters looked like back then, oh, and don't forget the working conditions, child labour, the "Poor Laws" and all the other "pretty" side effects of Manchester capitalism, hm?

 

[Electric Sceptic]

I do not believe that it is "religion" that has driven our "neuroses" about nudity or our "compulsion for clothing". In reality, it was the rise of something that was actually antithetical to religion, particularly Christian religion, Victorianism. (http://www.victorianweb.org/vn/victor4.html)

The rise of Victorianism or the Victorian Age is described as "the age of doubt" when it come to religion. Also, it is known as the era of "invention", beginning the notion that one can create solutions to problems, that man can create new means of bettering himself and his environment. This era brought us democracy, feminism, unionization of workers, socialism, Marxism, Marx, Freud and Darwin.

The Victorian model emphasized "self" control (rather than Christ control) of sexual desires by covering and removing ALL references to even the slightest possible thought of sexuality from sight and literature. They went so far as to even cover the legs of pianos and tables, lest it might cause you to THINK of a woman's bare leg.

And where do you think this neuroses over sex came from? Religion, of course.

On the surface it SEEMED to work, but there was a darker underside.

"There were more prostitutes per capita roaming the streets of London during this time than at any other period of that city's history. A flourishing trade in pornography and a profitable trade in virgins existed. Young girls were abducted: The going rate on the clandestine market fluctuated between five and forty Pounds, according to their age and beauty. After having been disgraced, these girls often joined the ranks of prostitutes."
Jorge Lewinski, "The Naked and The Nude" (New York: Harmony Books, 1987)

There always is a reaction like this when you try to sublimate something as natural and important as sex. Why do you think our culture is so obsessed with sex? Because religion has for so long told us how bad it is.

Also, the Victorian era was the beginning of the "clothes-make-the-man (or woman)" mindset as those of higher class and mobility were able to afford more and more elaborate styles of dress. It became very obvious which tier of the class structure one belonged to simply by looking at one's attire. The obvious solution became, "if you can't be nobility, at least dress like one." The competitive fashion industry was born and flourishes to this day.

Relevance?

If we stuck to reading our Bibles, everyone would see that it is not nudity that is the problem. It is a poor or non-existent relationship with God that is the problem.

A great many people stick to reading thei r bibles and are only to happy to say that nudity (and lowered modesty in revealing clothes) are a HUGE problem.

 

[Natman]

The Victorian Era was the golden age of the Middle Class, and their values were largely based on and inspired by the more repressive elements of Christian ethics, cf. the Victorian definition of VIRTUE.

According ti what I have read, it was "self-virtue", not "Christian-virtue". The problem, in this case is that they felt that they could control virtue merely by covering up anything that even remotely smacked of sexuality, rather that leaning on Christ.

The middle class we are talking about here wasn't much into doubting and changing things, though. Being a good and CHASTE Christian was of extreme importance.

I think the "common" man probably perceived it that way, but that is not what history appears to be saying about the movement from the top.

And I guess your staunch Republican heart shudders at all those nasty evils. Unionization of workers! The horror! The horror! People trying to change things for the better! BLASPHEMY! Not to mention the abomination of democracy...

I am not saying ANY of the things listed were bad, particularly at the time of their conception. Democracy certainly was and IS a great thing. Feminism was absolutely necessary because women were extremely oppressed. Unionization was not a bad thing either under the extremely poor working conditions of the Industrial age. Also, experiments in socialism and Marxism have shown us that pure versions of these two government formats simply do not work. And Freud and Darwin opened up discussions about the mind and origins of life.

The best teacher is experience and failure. All these things encouraged us to open our minds to discussions and learning possibilities, sometimes at the expense of human lives (Marxist communism), but they are all paths we had to travel over to better understand the intricacies of our life, lives and the workings of great societies.

SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

 

[Natman]

And where do you think this neuroses over sex came from? Religion, of course.

In the case of "Victorianism", it came from a desire to control the propagation of the masses and to stem the tide of sexual crimes such as rape. (In this case, it actually had the exact opposite affect).

There always is a reaction like this when you try to sublimate something as natural and important as sex.

I agree to some extent. We see the same thing occurs in less important issues as well, as in prohibition of alcohol and illicit drugs. Certainly it creates the surface appearance of control. However, it also creates a far more dangerous underground.

Why do you think our culture is so obsessed with sex? Because religion has for so long told us how bad it is.

This may be true of some religions, but I don't believe it is true in the Christian faith. The Christian faith does declare sex outside of marriage to be very problematic. However, sex within marriage, even erotic sex within marriage, is to be celebrated not only as humanly fulfilling, but also as honoring to God (read the Book of Solomon).

Relevance?

I blame the "Victorian" mindset for our current clothing-compulsion, not the Bible. The "clothes-makes-the-man" is a direct result of class relationship established in the fashions that came out of the Victorian era, not that our generation are trying as hard to cover everything up anymore, but that they are extremely label and style conscious.

A great many people stick to reading their bibles and are only to happy to say that nudity (and lowered modesty in revealing clothes) are a HUGE problem.

The problem is that they are injecting the "Victorian" mind-set and tradition in addition to and in lieu of what the Bible actually says and doesn't say about nudity and modesty. The Bible NEVER refers to mere nudity as sinful or even the source of lust. And the reference to "immodesty" is more about over-dress than under-dress, particularly in the context of temple worship, where all of our attention should be on God. However, partially revealing clothing designed to draw distracting attention to one's sexual parts could as easily be considered "immodest" by the same standards.

It is a hard message to convey... not to over-dress, drawing undue attention to yourself by making yourself look like you are better that the rest, and not to under-dress, drawing undue attention to your sexuality.

As a Christian "naturist", I feel it is better to dress appropriately based on the crowd you will be in...

Formal... dress formal.
Casual... dress casual.
Around the pool or beach... dress in trunks and swimsuit.
At a nudist/naturist event or beach... wear what's most comfortable or nothing.

Son-cerely,
Nathan Powes

 

[tgg]

In the case of "Victorianism", it came from a desire to control the propagation of the masses and to stem the tide of sexual crimes such as rape. (In this case, it actually had the exact opposite affect).

I agree to some extent. We see the same thing occurs in less important issues as well, as in prohibition of alcohol and illicit drugs. Certainly it creates the surface appearance of control. However, it also creates a far more dangerous underground.

That's what happens when we try to push morality onto the masses. For every force there is an equal and opposite force.

This may be true of some religions, but I don't believe it is true in the Christian faith. The Christian faith does declare sex outside of marriage to be very problematic. However, sex within marriage, even erotic sex within marriage, is to be celebrated not only as humanly fulfilling, but also as honoring to God (read the Book of Solomon).

Wasn't it the Mormon religion that introduced Prohibition? I don't necessarily see sex outside of marriage to be problematic. A lot of that comes from guilt manipulation. There are married people who have a lot of problems with their sex lives including single people who are quite happy and well-adjusted with their sex lives because they don't let anybody else control them or tell them what they can and can't do. They respect the rules they have laid down for each other in the relationship.
Marriage does not guarantee a good sex life.

I blame the "Victorian" mindset for our current clothing-compulsion, not the Bible. The "clothes-makes-the-man" is a direct result of class relationship established in the fashions that came out of the Victorian era, not that our generation are trying as hard to cover everything up anymore, but that they are extremely label and style conscious.

I would agree with you on this. However, I don't really think anybody dresses the way that they did in Queen Victoria's time. Despite the growing tolerance we have for nudity, we live in a very perverse youth worshipping culture where we want to give 'The Kids' whatever they want, rather than what's good for them.

It is a hard message to convey... not to over-dress, drawing undue attention to yourself by making yourself look like you are better that the rest, and not to under-dress, drawing undue attention to your sexuality.[/quote]

It'd be great if all businessmen went around naked, as well as prostitutes so that none of them would be seen as better or sexier than others.

Formal... dress formal.
Casual... dress casual.
Around the pool or beach... dress in trunks and swimsuit.
At a nudist/naturist event or beach... wear what's most comfortable or nothing.

I wish everyone was comfortable with being naked. Then I could get into more places where I can just be myself with no pretentions. ;-)


tgg

 

[Lanakila]

In some places, and some climates being naked isn't even a choice. Its freezing outside here today, and that isn't even a consideration. But a nude beach in Hawaii would be a different thing altogether.

 

[Exhausted]

It is a hard message to convey... not to over-dress, drawing undue attention to yourself by making yourself look like you are better that the rest, and not to under-dress, drawing undue attention to your sexuality.

It'd be great if all businessmen went around naked, as well as prostitutes so that none of them would be seen as better or sexier than others.

I dunno. I'd rather not see naked old men, personally.

 

[ACougar]

I dunno. I'd rather not see naked old men, personally.

The irony is that after a while you don't see the naked old men, just another man in his body.

 

[Exhausted]

The irony is that after a while you don't see the naked old men, just another man in his body.

Yeah, but I mean, the winkles... ugh. I am still used to clothes, but hey, thou shalt not judge. If you wanna, then go ahead, I won't stop the nekkid.

 

[Electric Sceptic]

I dunno. I'd rather not see naked old men, personally.

And I'd rather not see ugly people at all. That doesn't mean I have the right (or should have the right) to force them off the street. If I don't want to see them, that's MY problem, not theirs. If you don't want to see naked old men (or obese people, or whatever), that's YOUR problem, not theirs. They should not suffer because of YOUR problem.