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Nuclear weapons being developed for use in war

Susan

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http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993434

Read about it here. It's sickening because the "there should not be that much radiation" excuse was also used for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Are we willing to repeat the same thing 20 times over in Iraq? Are we willing to doom millions of innocents to a future of genetic defects, cancers, and immeasurable social suffering due to their being so ill? And are we willing to pay for the care of innocent victims?

Things really haven't changed much. :sigh: ;;^.^;;
 

Susan

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"The RNEP would be designed to plunge 30 metres or more into the ground before detonating a nuclear warhead. This would make it far more effective against buried targets, say advocates, who claim that it will produce less fallout than airburst nuclear weapons."

Anyone who has read anything about the subject (even the US government's own publications) knows that the closer a nuclear weapon is to the ground when it explodes, the more fallout results, because the blast expands outward and upward, a plume of fallout ascends from the explosion crater, the fallout being simply what used to exist before the detonation over and around it.

With that in mind, if a nuclear explosion above the ground could lead to fallout for 400 miles on either side, and one directly on the ground enlarges the fallout radius to around 1,200 miles, I would cringe at the amount that "30 metres or more into the ground" would produce. One such nuclear explosion would probably irradiate the whole of Iraq: but one for several major bunkers may well even send the fallout drifiting over to other countries.

If that were to happen, you have not seen the equivalent anti-American sentiment in the Middle East yet. I really do not think people would be happy with the damages to their health and lands or our pitiful offers to repay a small amount and hush the matter-and that would provide even more fodder for both rabble-rouser types and devout jihad clerics.
 
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O'Mara

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Susan, every time there is a war, people worry about nukes.

Let's think critically of the ramifications of US use of Nuclear weapons.

Nobody in the US has the stomach to drop another nuke, especially on a country like Iraq that couldn't put up a fight for more than maybe a 48 hour period.
 
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Wolseley

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Things really haven't changed much.
If we were nuclear gunslingers, Susan, we wouldn't have followed a policy of deterrence, disarmament, and non-proliferation for nearly 60 years; we would have nuked all those little troublesome places like North Korea, North Vietnam, Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Yugoslavia, Nicaragua, and a few others.

What really hasn't changed is the long-standing policy of the United States to refuse to employ nuclear weapons and to encouarge their non-development by other nations.
Anyone who has read anything about the subject (even the US government's own publications) knows that the closer a nuclear weapon is to the ground when it explodes, the more fallout results, because the blast expands outward and upward, a plume of fallout ascends from the explosion crater, the fallout being simply what used to exist before the detonation over and around it.

With that in mind, if a nuclear explosion above the ground could lead to fallout for 400 miles on either side, and one directly on the ground enlarges the fallout radius to around 1,200 miles, I would cringe at the amount that "30 metres or more into the ground" would produce.
The reason a nuke creates greater fallout as a surface burst (closer to the ground) is because it picks up more debris which is lifted into the air as the blast wave goes up and out. (By comparison, an airburst, detonated say 1/2 mile above a target, creates more blast damage but less fallout due to less debris.)

A weapon which is inserted 30 meters into the ground before detonation will produce less fallout than a surface burst, simply due to the fact that the blast wave is contained underground, rather than spreading outward in circumference on the surface of the ground. You might have the same amount of radiation, but there would be less spread of irradiated particles over a large area due to the submersion of the weapon before detonation; thus the radiation would be, to a degree, contained.
 
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My Higher Self

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Susan, what Woseley said is absolutely correct.....underground nuclear detonations result in less radioactive fallout as well as less dispersed radiation, as it is absorbed by the ground. That is why underground nuclear testing is all that is still allowed when surface testing has been banned.
 
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Michael0701

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Susan,

Are you familiar with the term "sabre rattling"? Why I remeber while I was "in" how amazed I was to find out that the blueprints for a nuclear submarine were available through the library of congress. Then someone suggested to me that things like that are done intentionally to either intimidate an adversary, or force him to develope something better and go bankrupt doing so (ala the former USSR). Sure we have nukes, and sure we could use them, but I may be wrong but I don't think the present administration would.
 
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cenimo

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In actuality, a terrorist or two or three with a suitcase nuke are something which the world should be more concerned about...

especially since the former USSR lost so much of the ingredients to make them....

in a war between the US and Red China, for example, theorhetically nukes could come into play simply because China has more soldiers than the US has people....
 
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chickenman

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What really hasn't changed is the long-standing policy of the United States to refuse to employ nuclear weapons and to encouarge their non-development by other nations.

doesn't it seem at all hypocritical to you that the US is thinking about developing their own nuclear weapons?
 
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Wolseley

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doesn't it seem at all hypocritical to you that the US is thinking about developing their own nuclear weapons?
Not at all. The United States already has weapons of mass destruction, so that's a somewhat odd question. But the concern is that such weapons will be developed by nations that are actually prepared to use them offensively; India and Pakistan come to mind.....

Ever since the end of the Kennedy Administration, the nuclear policy of the United States has been one of deterrence; meaning the "mutually assured destruction" threat levelled against the Soviet Union. Under this policy, the Russians were kept in check, knowing fully well if they launched a first strike, in twenty minutes it wouldn't matter anyway, since they would cease to exist. As a result, nobody used their nuclear stockplies. A similar, but very much smaller, tactic was used against Saddam Hussein in 1991 when George Bush Sr. flatly told the Iraqi government that if chemical weapons were used against American forces in the Gulf, then tactical nuclear weapons would be launched against Iraq in response.

This won't make the slightest bit of differecne to those who hold the opinion that the United States is the big bully-boy on the block, but deterrance is only part of the reason the U.S. is opposed to nuclear weapons proliferation; another part of the reason is because we have tested these things enough to know what they'll actually do, and if such weapons were stockpiled and employed on a massive scale by countries where cool heads did not prevail (India, Pakistan, North Korea, Iraq), the consequenses would be decidedly ugly for everybody on the planet. In this circumstance, the U.S. is not only looking out for its own interests, but the interests of everyone else as well.

With this in mind, IMHO it would be more appropriate by far to prevent unstable nations from developing nuclear weapons, or else working to ensure they have stable governments with informed, cool-headed leaders in charge who pattern their nuclear policy after that of countries like the United States which hopes to never have to use them, rather than complaining about the United States possessing them already. We have them, and that's the sad fact; all the complaining in the world will not alter that. The best thing for it now is to do the utmost to make sure nobody else winds up with nukes who actually wants to use them.

And just as a parting shot, I wonder what the prevailing attitude would be if Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Libya, Somalia, and the Palestinian Authority possesed the full, complete nuclear arsenal which the United States now has, and the United States had nothing? I wonder how many people would sleep easier at night, knowing that the mean old rogue U.S. didn't have those nasty old weapons that they threatened to use at every turn, and everybody knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were going to do it, too? After all, certainly Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Libya, Somalia, and the Palestinian Authority would never threaten to use a nuke, right? I'm sure the world would be a much safer place if all of those countries had nuclear arsenals, and the United States had none.
 
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Susan

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Another problem with such a nuclear weapon is the groundwater in the place where it will most likely be used. Unlike in the places where underground nuclear testing is normally conducted (desert with no or little underground water sources), the Middle East HIGHLY depends on wells and the groundwater that feeds them.

Hypothetically, this could pose several hazards. The first would be if the blast collapsed layers of earth and thus sealed off a major aquifer. The wells that drew from that source would dry up very quickly, and anyone who depended on those wells would have to find an alternative water source.

A worse scenario would be if radioactive contaminants seeped into a major groundwater supply that fed more than one well. The even worse thing about this is that no one would know they were being poisoned by the water they are drinking, bathing in, washing in, and using for any other purpose until tests were conducted or radiation-related illnesses began to show up among a population that used the wells in question.

The next scenario is one that's probably very improbable. It and $3 would buy a small coffee, but since I'm writing hypothetically, I will post it:

A nuclear blast in or very close to a large underground water source may well produce the same effect that happens in volcanic geysers. The superheated water becomes steam and explodes out of any outlet available. If this hypothesis came true, a geyser of radioactive steam, water, and particles would explode from the ground at the nearest point to the explosion.

Again, any of these happening would harm untold numbers of innocent people (maybe not even IN Iraq-the effects could reach as far as Kuwait, Qatar, Jordan or even Israel) and it would provide much more fodder for the anti-Americanism and jihad preaching.
 
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Wolseley

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Chickenman: it may be hypocritical; however, the United States isn't "further developing" its nuclear capability. All we do is maintain the existing stockpile and keep it up-to-date.

Susan: the only problem with your scenario is that water does not become irradiated; radioactive particles pass through water, but they do not cause the water itself to become radioactive. In other words, in order to contract radiation poisoning from drinking water, you'd have to drink the radioactive particles that are in the water---the water itself is harmless.

Groundwater seeps through layers of earth; this would act as the most efficient filter you could possibly hope for to screen out radioactive particles. The water coming out the other end of the groundwater aqueduct would contain no radioactive particles whatsoever.

As for collapsing underground aqueduct walls, that's possible; but I doubt that many hardened military targets, even in a place like Iraq, are built on top of major natural aquifer systems. A more likely scenario would be that the heat produced by the weapon would fuse the earth on the inside of the blast area into a brittle coating of stone, thus sealing up whatever was left inside (which would be nothing, but we're talking about water here).

As for radioactive geysers, well, you're right---I think that's....highly....unlikely. :)
 
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