NT Wright,re-evaluating Paul?

cyberlizard

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proof of point would be, show us a single verse in the Torah were it says gentiles are unclean?


Steve


Just a selection ...

Lev. 5:3 Or when you touch human uncleanness

Lev. 7:21 When any one of you touches any unclean thing—human uncleanness

Lev. 10:10 You are to distinguish between the holy and the common, and between the unclean and the clean

Num. 19:20 Any who are unclean but do not purify themselves

Num. 19:22 Whatever the unclean person touches shall be unclean, and anyone who touches it shall be unclean until evening.


The whole object of the purity laws was to separate Israel from anyone 'unclean'. Clearly only Jews could follow the complicated, convoluted and intricate purity laws which through practice would exclude anyone not following such laws, which would by necessity include everyone other than a Jew.




rebuttal

Lev. 5:3 - or if they touch human uncleanness—anything that would make them unclean—even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt... nothing here to do with gentiles being unclean, it's discussing issues such as niddah and faeces.


Lev.7v21 - Anyone who touches something unclean—whether human uncleanness or an unclean animal or any unclean creature that moves along the groundh—and then eats any of the meat of the fellowship offering belonging to the LORD must be cut off from their people.’ ”... context is the korban, again there is nothing in this verse to indicate gentiles are unclean, it's simply discussing tamei and tahor.

Lev.10v10 - so that you can distinguish between the holy and the common, between the unclean and the clean... once more this verse is nothing to do with gentiles being unclean, it is to do with the kohanim being sober minded to carry out the duties properly within the mishkan.

Num. 19v20 - But if those who are unclean do not purify themselves, they must be cut off from the comcommunity, because they have defiled the sanctuary of the LORD. The water of cleansing has not been sprinkled on them, and they are unclean.... this passage is clearly discussing sprinkling with water for purification, however, again there is nothing in the verse to show that gentiles are innately unclean creatures.

Num.19v22 - Anything that an unclean person touches becomes unclean, and anyone who touches it becomes unclean till evening.”... this is discussing the property of transferance of tamei status. Nothing in the verse about gentiles being unclean.


Now as to only Jews being able to follow the complicated purity laws, nothing could be further from the truth. The apostolic writing clearly show the existance of theophobos (God fearers). Extant writings from the period clearly indicate the status of God-fearers within the Torah system. In essence they were almost proselytes but not quite. They lived Torah observant lifestyles, participated in the synagoue system and were essentially living as Jews but had not yet the process of 'works of law', 'circumcision'. The ritual of conversion to Judaism. They were in no man's land. Roman law allowed for only two religious groupings in the region, those being Roman deities (including emperor workship) and what was known as a collegia. A collegia being a validly permitted religious persuasion. In this instance Judaism.
 
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Frogster

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rebuttal

Lev. 5:3 - or if they touch human uncleanness—anything that would make them unclean—even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt... nothing here to do with gentiles being unclean, it's discussing issues such as niddah and faeces.


Lev.7v21 - Anyone who touches something unclean—whether human uncleanness or an unclean animal or any unclean creature that moves along the groundh—and then eats any of the meat of the fellowship offering belonging to the LORD must be cut off from their people.’ ”... context is the korban, again there is nothing in this verse to indicate gentiles are unclean, it's simply discussing tamei and tahor.

Lev.10v10 - so that you can distinguish between the holy and the common, between the unclean and the clean... once more this verse is nothing to do with gentiles being unclean, it is to do with the kohanim being sober minded to carry out the duties properly within the mishkan.

Num. 19v20 - But if those who are unclean do not purify themselves, they must be cut off from the comcommunity, because they have defiled the sanctuary of the LORD. The water of cleansing has not been sprinkled on them, and they are unclean.... this passage is clearly discussing sprinkling with water for purification, however, again there is nothing in the verse to show that gentiles are innately unclean creatures.

Num.19v22 - Anything that an unclean person touches becomes unclean, and anyone who touches it becomes unclean till evening.”... this is discussing the property of transferance of tamei status. Nothing in the verse about gentiles being unclean.


Now as to only Jews being able to follow the complicated purity laws, nothing could be further from the truth. The apostolic writing clearly show the existance of theophobos (God fearers). Extant writings from the period clearly indicate the status of God-fearers within the Torah system. In essence they were almost proselytes but not quite. They lived Torah observant lifestyles, participated in the synagoue system and were essentially living as Jews but had not yet the process of 'works of law', 'circumcision'. The ritual of conversion to Judaism. They were in no man's land. Roman law allowed for only two religious groupings in the region, those being Roman deities (including emperor workship) and what was known as a collegia. A collegia being a validly permitted religious persuasion. In this instance Judaism.

And the way to be cleansed,was by the priests,which the gentiles did not do,hence they were unclean.

Leviticus 5:6 he shall bring to the LORD as his compensation for the sin that he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat, for a sin offering. And the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin.
 
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Frogster

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rebuttal

Lev. 5:3 - or if they touch human uncleanness—anything that would make them unclean—even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt... nothing here to do with gentiles being unclean, it's discussing issues such as niddah and faeces.


Lev.7v21 - Anyone who touches something unclean—whether human uncleanness or an unclean animal or any unclean creature that moves along the groundh—and then eats any of the meat of the fellowship offering belonging to the LORD must be cut off from their people.’ ”... context is the korban, again there is nothing in this verse to indicate gentiles are unclean, it's simply discussing tamei and tahor.

Lev.10v10 - so that you can distinguish between the holy and the common, between the unclean and the clean... once more this verse is nothing to do with gentiles being unclean, it is to do with the kohanim being sober minded to carry out the duties properly within the mishkan.

Num. 19v20 - But if those who are unclean do not purify themselves, they must be cut off from the comcommunity, because they have defiled the sanctuary of the LORD. The water of cleansing has not been sprinkled on them, and they are unclean.... this passage is clearly discussing sprinkling with water for purification, however, again there is nothing in the verse to show that gentiles are innately unclean creatures.

Num.19v22 - Anything that an unclean person touches becomes unclean, and anyone who touches it becomes unclean till evening.”... this is discussing the property of transferance of tamei status. Nothing in the verse about gentiles being unclean.


Now as to only Jews being able to follow the complicated purity laws, nothing could be further from the truth. The apostolic writing clearly show the existance of theophobos (God fearers). Extant writings from the period clearly indicate the status of God-fearers within the Torah system. In essence they were almost proselytes but not quite. They lived Torah observant lifestyles, participated in the synagoue system and were essentially living as Jews but had not yet the process of 'works of law', 'circumcision'. The ritual of conversion to Judaism. They were in no man's land. Roman law allowed for only two religious groupings in the region, those being Roman deities (including emperor workship) and what was known as a collegia. A collegia being a validly permitted religious persuasion. In this instance Judaism.

God fearers were also Roman guards,who did not live Torah.And they were not allowed in the temple.They could havs converted,but did not.
 
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Secundulus

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Now as to only Jews being able to follow the complicated purity laws, nothing could be further from the truth. The apostolic writing clearly show the existance of theophobos (God fearers). Extant writings from the period clearly indicate the status of God-fearers within the Torah system. In essence they were almost proselytes but not quite. They lived Torah observant lifestyles, participated in the synagoue system and were essentially living as Jews but had not yet the process of 'works of law', 'circumcision'. The ritual of conversion to Judaism. They were in no man's land. Roman law allowed for only two religious groupings in the region, those being Roman deities (including emperor workship) and what was known as a collegia. A collegia being a validly permitted religious persuasion. In this instance Judaism.
These God Fearers were in fact the primary audience and target of Paul on his missionary journeys. Probably the fact that they were already members of synagogues, although not fully converted to Judaism, is what caused the dispute over circumcision that he continually writes about.
 
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wayseer

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rebuttal ....

Your illustrations ably demonstrate the 'stumbling block' of the Torah - like any human intervention - it became unworkable. Paul acknowledges this problem with Torah in his tirade in Romans 7.

The purity laws functioned to separate Israel from other nations - thus they functioned to separate the gentiles, the unclean, from the clean.

Jesus demonstrated that such ritualistic practice was not what God wanted. He whole life was associated with the 'unclean' - the marginalized Jews of his days - especially women.

Jesus did not keep Torah - that was why there were plots to kill him - he broke all of the important purity laws.

Of course, the 21st century Church has again invoked the 'purity laws' in respect of women and homosexuals and other 'undesirables' (read, poor) on the same pretense as that some are more 'pure' therefore more Christian than others.
 
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cyberlizard

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Your illustrations ably demonstrate the 'stumbling block' of the Torah - like any human intervention - it became unworkable. Paul acknowledges this problem with Torah in his tirade in Romans 7.

The purity laws functioned to separate Israel from other nations - thus they functioned to separate the gentiles, the unclean, from the clean.

Jesus demonstrated that such ritualistic practice was not what God wanted. He whole life was associated with the 'unclean' - the marginalized Jews of his days - especially women.
Jesus did not keep Torah - that was why there were plots to kill him - he broke all of the important purity laws.

Of course, the 21st century Church has again invoked the 'purity laws' in respect of women and homosexuals and other 'undesirables' (read, poor) on the same pretense as that some are more 'pure' therefore more Christian than others.



what complete rubbish. If he did not keep Torah, why then did he encourage others to do so? Would that not make him a hypocrite?

If Jesus did not keep Torah, then he IS NOT the messiah... after all the prophecies are explicit surrounding his goals.

Show a single instance where Jesus broke the purity laws, and I'll show you how it presents Jesus as a sinner as Paul defines sin as breaking the Torah.


Steve

p.s. the Torah says it is not beyond our ability. Yes the purity laws were there to seperate Israel, but the OT Israel consists of a mixed (Heb: erev rav) multitude.
 
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wayseer

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what complete rubbish.

Thank you for the vote of confidence.

If he did not keep Torah, why then did he encourage others to do so?

In what context does Jesus say that his followers 'have to keep Torah'?

Would that not make him a hypocrite?

Depends very much on what the life of Jesus means to you.

Show a single instance where Jesus broke the purity laws

Jesus whole teaching was one long episode of breaking Torah - particularly the 'purity' laws. Levi was a tax collector - tax collectors were 'unclean'. Women were 'unclean'. Lepers were 'unclean'. Dead bodies were 'unclean'. Romans soldiers were 'unclean'. Jesus' table community was one where he ate with everyone - 'unclean'. All these people were the source of 'pollution'.
 
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cyberlizard

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if Jesus' teaching was anti-torah then he must have been really confused as he affirmed the validity of the written torah all the time... e.g. go and sin no more (go and stop transgressing the Torah).

tax collectors were unclean, where did you find that information in the books of Moses?

Coming into contact with ritually impure objects and/or people does not break the Torah, the Torah permits such actions (unless your a high priest in the temple) and even gives the solution to the problem.

as to 'in what context does Jesus say his followers have to keep Torah'... that would be part of the great comission. Jesus explicitly says, 'commanding them to obey everything I have commanded you'. What did he command them... the greatest commandment, the Shema and the Ahavta... and he said he who does, and teaches others to keep even the most minor commandment (this was about not taking a bird from its nest) is the one who is a heavyweight in the Kingdom.


Steve
 
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Frogster

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if Jesus' teaching was anti-torah then he must have been really confused as he affirmed the validity of the written torah all the time... e.g. go and sin no more (go and stop transgressing the Torah).

tax collectors were unclean, where did you find that information in the books of Moses?

Coming into contact with ritually impure objects and/or people does not break the Torah, the Torah permits such actions (unless your a high priest in the temple) and even gives the solution to the problem.

as to 'in what context does Jesus say his followers have to keep Torah'... that would be part of the great comission. Jesus explicitly says, 'commanding them to obey everything I have commanded you'. What did he command them... the greatest commandment, the Shema and the Ahavta... and he said he who does, and teaches others to keep even the most minor commandment (this was about not taking a bird from its nest) is the one who is a heavyweight in the Kingdom.


Steve

The jews tried to avoid breaking the Torah though.Yet,Jesus wilfully touched lepers.

Why didn't he command the woman caught in adultery be stoned?The law said to put here to death.
 
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wayseer

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if Jesus' teaching was anti-torah then he must have been really confused as he affirmed the validity of the written torah all the time... e.g. go and sin no more (go and stop transgressing the Torah).

Is that the best you can come up with?

Jesus was not 'confused' - he knew exactly what he was doing and why and what consequences he had to face.

tax collectors were unclean, where did you find that information in the books of Moses?

They were 'unclean' -polluting - because they dealt with images (embedded on every coin of the Roman Empire) of the 'other' God, Caesar.

Coming into contact with ritually impure objects and/or people does not break the Torah, the Torah permits such actions (unless your a high priest in the temple) and even gives the solution to the problem.

That 'solution', as you put it, revolved around ceremonial washings and purifications which were time consuming and costly to perform.

as to 'in what context does Jesus say his followers have to keep Torah'... that would be part of the great comission.

What 'great commission' did Jesus give? The only one I can recall is the one to love.
 
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The jews tried to avoid breaking the Torah though.Yet,Jesus wilfully touched lepers.

Why didn't he command the woman caught in adultery be stoned?The law said to put here to death.


do you actually know how stringent the rules legally were back than to have someone stoned to death. If they had stoned her, it would have been mob rule rather than the jewish judicial system. After all their was no mention of 'beit din' or 'sanhedrin' be it local or national.

As to the former part, some Jews did try and avoid touching what was unclean, the parable of the samaritan is proof of point. However, touching the unclean person is not sinful and neither does it break the law as the Torah makes provision for what happens when something holy comes into contact with something not. (NB: holy is a state, not a moral condition).



Steve
 
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Frogster

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do you actually know how stringent the rules legally were back than to have someone stoned to death. If they had stoned her, it would have been mob rule rather than the jewish judicial system. After all their was no mention of 'beit din' or 'sanhedrin' be it local or national.

As to the former part, some Jews did try and avoid touching what was unclean, the parable of the samaritan is proof of point. However, touching the unclean person is not sinful and neither does it break the law as the Torah makes provision for what happens when something holy comes into contact with something not. (NB: holy is a state, not a moral condition).



Steve

Are you saying that if one wilfully breaks a statute,he is not breaking the law?

Leviticus 10:10 You are to distinguish between the holy and the common, and between the unclean and the clean, 11 and you are to teach the people of Israel all the statutes that the LORD has spoken to them by Moses.”


Seems like an incorrect assumption.

Leviticus 26:15
if you spurn my statutes, and if your soul abhors my rules, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant,
 
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Secundulus

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Are you saying that if one wilfully breaks a statute,he is not breaking the law?

Leviticus 10:10 You are to distinguish between the holy and the common, and between the unclean and the clean, 11 and you are to teach the people of Israel all the statutes that the LORD has spoken to them by Moses.”


Seems like an incorrect assumption.

Leviticus 26:15
if you spurn my statutes, and if your soul abhors my rules, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant,
As stated before, being in a state of uncleanliness wasn't sin. It was simply uncleanliness that was made clean by a combination of time and washing.

It put you outside the congregation and the temple until unclean was made clean. If you read the rules for uncleanliness, most of them were there to prevent the spread of disease amongst the people. Given the primitive state of medicine at the time, a contagion could wipe out an entire city.

We still have the concept in modern society. We call it quarantine.

Additionally, it taught the people the concept of total and absolute purity necessary to stand before God.
 
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wayseer

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As stated before, being in a state of uncleanliness wasn't sin.

As far as I understand the debate thus far it not a matter whether being 'unclean' was a sin or not - the point of issue is the rather bold statement; nothing here to do with gentiles being unclean.

It was simply uncleanliness that was made clean by a combination of time and washing.

There was nothing 'simply' about the Torah's cleanliness laws. They were complicated to the extreme. Such laws served to divide, sever, Israel from the surrounding nations. Thus, gentile nations were deemed 'unclean'.

It put you outside the congregation and the temple until unclean was made clean. If you read the rules for uncleanliness, most of them were there to prevent the spread of disease amongst the people. Given the primitive state of medicine at the time, a contagion could wipe out an entire city.

This is a functionalists explanation which fails to address, and indeed masks, the real issues at work which had to do with God calling Israel to be 'separate' from other nations/peoples.

Additionally, it taught the people the concept of total and absolute purity necessary to stand before God.

Actually, the 'people' as you put it, could never 'stand before God' pure and undefiled. Only the High Priest could 'stand before God', and then only once a year and not then until after a period lasting some two weeks of washing and purifications in preparation for the Day of Atonement. I'm open to correction, but such is my understanding of the Law.

It was this aspect of the Law - that effectively no one could stand before God pure and undefiled - that underpins Paul's 'justification by faith' statements. As Jesus demonstrated, the purity laws just did not work instead creating their own 'hell' - Paul's cry, 'Oh, wretched man am I' echoes the agony and futility of trying to 'keep the law'.
 
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welll... secundulus, you saved me a job, uncleanness and/or allowing yourself to become unclean is not sin. It falls within the law and neither breaks a positive or negative commandment. The commandment reagrding uncleaness is an imperitive. The only time it becomes a sin is if you fail to follow the prescribed washing, and actually the rules were not that complex (most people immersed themselves once a day anyway).


Steve
 
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Frogster

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As far as I understand the debate thus far it not a matter whether being 'unclean' was a sin or not - the point of issue is the rather bold statement; nothing here to do with gentiles being unclean.



There was nothing 'simply' about the Torah's cleanliness laws. They were complicated to the extreme. Such laws served to divide, sever, Israel from the surrounding nations. Thus, gentile nations were deemed 'unclean'.



This is a functionalists explanation which fails to address, and indeed masks, the real issues at work which had to do with God calling Israel to be 'separate' from other nations/peoples.



Actually, the 'people' as you put it, could never 'stand before God' pure and undefiled. Only the High Priest could 'stand before God', and then only once a year and not then until after a period lasting some two weeks of washing and purifications in preparation for the Day of Atonement. I'm open to correction, but such is my understanding of the Law.

It was this aspect of the Law - that effectively no one could stand before God pure and undefiled - that underpins Paul's 'justification by faith' statements. As Jesus demonstrated, the purity laws just did not work instead creating their own 'hell' - Paul's cry, 'Oh, wretched man am I' echoes the agony and futility of trying to 'keep the law'.

:thumbsup:

Good point,it is a fact,(as you know)that the laws did make the gentiles unclean,and that is why they had to stay away from the unclean gentiles.
 
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Frogster

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As stated before, being in a state of uncleanliness wasn't sin. It was simply uncleanliness that was made clean by a combination of time and washing.

It put you outside the congregation and the temple until unclean was made clean. If you read the rules for uncleanliness, most of them were there to prevent the spread of disease amongst the people. Given the primitive state of medicine at the time, a contagion could wipe out an entire city.

We still have the concept in modern society. We call it quarantine.

Additionally, it taught the people the concept of total and absolute purity necessary to stand before God.

welll... secundulus, you saved me a job, uncleanness and/or allowing yourself to become unclean is not sin. It falls within the law and neither breaks a positive or negative commandment. The commandment reagrding uncleaness is an imperitive. The only time it becomes a sin is if you fail to follow the prescribed washing, and actually the rules were not that complex (most people immersed themselves once a day anyway).


Steve

Interesting how,clean and unclean,are connected with holiness.

Leviticus 10:10 You are to distinguish between the holy and the common, and between the unclean and the clean, 11 and you are to teach the people of Israel all the statutes that the LORD has spoken to them by Moses.”

Are you guys saying,to eat an unclean detestable animal,was not sin?


Leviticus 11:43
You shall not make yourselves detestable with any swarming thing that swarms, and you shall not defile yourselves with them, and become unclean through them.

To me,if it was destable,it was detestable.

2 Chronicles 15:16
Even Maacah, his mother, King Asa removed from being queen mother because she had made a detestable image for Asherah. Asa cut down her image, crushed it, and burned it at the brook Kidron.

Are you guys saying that if one breaks a command,an ordinance in the book of the law,it was not sin?

Leviticus 26:15
if you spurn my statutes, and if your soul abhors my rules, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant,
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Has anyone heard of this? To me it sounds like some want to "re-evaluate'" scripture.He indicates that we need to learn about first century Judaism. He believes that what Paul meant by justification was an issue of Gentile and Jewish believers getting along and accepting one another. To me that sounds like a watering down of the book of Galatians.And obscuring what justification really is.

It is called NPP,new perspective on Paul.From what I have read on sites already,I dont like the smell of it.I also dont like when a scholar is given to much credence,or is over quoted.


One note I would like to add is this.As far as the climate of the first century goes,we saw the viloence of Paul against the Christians,and then we saw that same collective violence visited upon him,after conversion.So I think that stonings and beatings,give us a good idea,of the times.I say this because Wright indicates that he thinks that there was not a big problem between unsaved Jews,and Christians.
Bishop Tom Wright is one of the one of the most forward looking Christian thinkers. He has a great web page - you need to check it out.


Great. Is there someone wrong with re-evaluating scripture?


Wright is not alone there. Many scholars claim that without understanding Judaism we cannot properly understand Jesus or Paul. I agree.


I think you need to read a little deeper. Wright is not that 'easy'.


Wright would congratulate you - that is his aim - to make you think a little deeper about Christianity. He does not expect everyone to agree with him.

That may be your problem rather than Wright's. Tom Wright is a respected author whether one agrees with him or not.

If you are going to make claims concerning Wright it is a good idea to provide the particular reference which you use to support your claim - others then can make a balanced response.
Truthfully, I have not read anything by NT Wright, tho he has been brought up on some threads. Interesting theologian.......

N. T. Wright - Wikipedia

Nicholas Thomas Wright FRSE (also N. T. Wright or Tom Wright;[3] born 1 December 1948) is an English New Testament scholar, Pauline theologian, and retired Anglican bishop. Between 2003 and 2010, he was the Bishop of Durham. He then became Research Professor of New Testament and Early Christianity at St Mary's College in the University of St Andrews in Scotland.

He writes about theology, Christian life, and the relationship of these two things. He advocates a biblical re-evaluation of theological matters such as justification,[4] women's ordination,[5] and popular Christian views about life after death.[6] He has also criticised the idea of a literal Rapture.[7] The author of over seventy books, Wright is highly regarded in academic and theological circles for his "Christian Origins and the Question of God" series.[8] The third volume, The Resurrection of the Son of God, is considered by many pastors and theologians to be a seminal Christian work on the resurrection of the historical Jesus,[9][10] while the most recently released fourth volume, Paul and the Faithfulness of God, is hailed as Wright's magnum opus.[11]

New perspective on Paul
Wright follows the New Perspective on Paul interpretation of the Pauline letters.[20][21] Wright offers that Paul cannot be ignored by any serious Christian and that, through this central place within the New Testament canon, Paul has come to be abused, misunderstood, imposed upon, and approached with incorrect or inappropriate questions about the Christian faith.[22]
Wright offers, "Paul in the twentieth century, then, has been used and abused much as in the first. Can we, as the century draws towards its close, listen a bit more closely to him? Can we somehow repent of the ways we have mishandled him and respect his own way of doing things a bit more?"[23]

This question reflects the key consideration for the New Perspective on Paul and a fundamental aim of Wright's scholarship: to allow the apostle Paul to speak for himself without imposing modern considerations and questions upon him and in so doing, seeking to ascertain what St. Paul was really trying to say to the people he was writing to.[24]
From this, Wright contends that by examining the Pauline corpus through this unique perspective, difficult passages within the text become illuminated in new ways, his letters gain coherence both in their particularities as well as with one another, and it provides an overall picture of what Paul was about, without doing violence to the little details within the letters.[25]

The content of the new perspective can be traced to the work of E. P. Sanders and his book Paul and Palestinian Judaism.[26] In this 1977 work, Sanders argued that the prevailing view of first-century Judaism in the New Testament was inaccurate.
He described it instead as "covenantal nomism", which emphasised God's election of a people and adherence to the Torah as a way of "staying in" the religion (rather than a way of "getting in"). Pauline scholars such as Wright who adhere to Sanders' reading of Judaism see Paul's "problem" with law adherence not as a rejection of the attitude that God's favour depended upon the fulfilment of the requirements of the law, but rather was a rejection of the law's function of dividing Jew from Gentile.

Honours
He has been awarded several honorary doctoral degrees,[58] including from Durham University in July 2007,[59] the John Leland Center for Theological Studies in April 2008,[60] the University of St Andrews in 2009,[61] Heythrop College, University of London in 2010, and the Ecumenical Institute of Theology at St. Mary's Seminary & University in May 2012.

In 2014, he was awarded the Burkitt Medal by the British Academy 'in recognition of special service to Biblical Studies'.[62] It was announced in March 2015 that he is to be made a fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh (FRSE).


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