Nothing lewd found at Florida drag show, undercover agents confirm.

[Yttrium]

We never debated drag queens before. They were off doing their own thing. But when they started involving children and started trying to indoctrinate and groom kids, well that's when we stood up and took notice.

If they went back to the life they lived before and left the kids alone, we be happy to shut up about them.

We are not

I'm late on this, sorry, I was giving it a lot of thought. I wouldn't be surprised if there are many cases of attempted grooming at drag shows for kids. However, I would also expect that there are many cases where there is no such intention, and the drag shows are just done with the intention of good fun.

But it doesn't matter if they're grooming or not. They're allowed to, thanks to free speech. We have laws against lewd conduct, and we can monitor them to make sure they respect those laws, but drag in itself isn't lewd conduct. If you're worried about grooming, don't take your kids to the shows. If you see them as something you want to protect the community from, then organize lawful protests to let them know they're not welcome. Don't bother trying to pass laws to ban them, because such laws will go down in flames, thanks to the Constitution.

 

[rjs330]

No, I claim they are neither male nor female, because biological sex is not strictly binary. They are intersex.

You may claim that all you want but it doesn't make it true. You already stated they are not a third sex.

There has been no new scientific discoveries os a new sex which would be required if sex were to not be binary.
DSD is not an indication that sex is not binary. You still have the requirement of the X and Y chromosomes, gamedes, bone structure, sexual organs, hormones etc are all part of determining sex. To claim sex isn't binary is unscientific, it is a violation of biology and evolution. There is no new discovery, there is no third sex organ. DSD does not define a third sex.

Believe what will, but it's unreal, unscientific and flies in the face of biology and evolution.

 

[rjs330]

I'm late on this, sorry, I was giving it a lot of thought. I wouldn't be surprised if there are many cases of attempted grooming at drag shows for kids. However, I would also expect that there are many cases where there is no such intention, and the drag shows are just done with the intention of good fun.

But it doesn't matter if they're grooming or not. They're allowed to, thanks to free speech. We have laws against lewd conduct, and we can monitor them to make sure they respect those laws, but drag in itself isn't lewd conduct. If you're worried about grooming, don't take your kids to the shows. If you see them as something you want to protect the community from, then organize lawful protests to let them know they're not welcome. Don't bother trying to pass laws to ban them, because such laws will go down in flames, thanks to the Constitution.

No one is banning drag shows. What is being banned is drag shows where kids are viewing the lewd and sexual conduct. Queens can have All the shows they want. They just can't be lewd and sexual around the kids.

Why anyone defends this is totally beyond me. It just goes to show the rampant immorality of the individuals and the wrecking of values and society

 

[essentialsaltes]

No one is banning drag shows. What is being banned is drag shows where kids are viewing the lewd and sexual conduct.

The OP story involves a drag show where the police say nothing lewd occurred, but the state is acting to remove the liquor license of the venue.

 

[essentialsaltes]

You may claim that all you want but it doesn't make it true. You already stated they are not a third sex.

There has been no new scientific discoveries os a new sex which would be required if sex were to not be binary.

I'm sorry, you're just failing logic here.

Primeness is not strictly binary among the whole numbers. 1 is neither prime nor composite. Neither is 0. We are not obligated to create a third category called mxyzptlk to include 1 and 0.

Nevertheless, primeness is not strictly binary among the whole numbers.

Whereas even/oddness is strictly binary among the whole numbers.

 

[Yttrium]

No one is banning drag shows. What is being banned is drag shows where kids are viewing the lewd and sexual conduct.

I was talking about the kids shows.

 

[rjs330]

The OP story involves a drag show where the police say nothing lewd occurred, but the state is acting to remove the liquor license of the venue.

Just because the there wasn't anything there that was lewd according to law doesn't mean there wasn't anything lewd that happened. I read the description of what went on there. Did you?

And still no one is banning drag shows despite the claim otherwise.

 

[rjs330]

I'm sorry, you're just failing logic here.

Primeness is not strictly binary among the whole numbers. 1 is neither prime nor composite. Neither is 0. We are not obligated to create a third category called mxyzptlk to include 1 and 0.

Nevertheless, primeness is not strictly binary among the whole numbers.

Whereas even/oddness is strictly binary among the whole numbers.

Doesn't mean sex isn't binary does it.
Hmm... Still no scientific discoveries that change the binary sex of humans. Still nothing that scientifically contradicts anything I said.

You are just throwing stuff at the wall in hopes something sticks.

 

[DaisyDay]

“A”, it has been corrrected for posterity’s sake.

I've deleted my post that referred to it.

 

[stevevw]

What Is the Sexuality Spectrum

The sexuality spectrum provides a way of defining sexual identity along a range of possibilities rather than selecting between categories. Learn what the sexuality spectrum is, how to use associated vocabulary.

www.webmd.com

If you're not interested in reading....it basically sounds like how they describe gender. As if people are going to bed heterosexual, are bisexual by the evening, and homosexual the next day. Or just start making up words like "demisexual" and pretend you're special.

In fact....not only is sexual orientation an infinite spectrum....and so is gender....but also, so is biological sex.

It's as if that gender stuff you were told to never question was just a trick to see exactly how many people were dumb enough to believe anything at all with the appropriate amount of shaming.

What i find confusing is the language used in this ideology. When it says "defining sexual identity" what does that even mean. For one sex is about biology which is factual and 'Identity' is subjective. How can the 2 be conflated to define sex. This is where I think the bait and switch tactic has been used by using the two categories interchangably. Conflate sex with gender identity enough and eventually sex will be subsumed as some spectrum.

 

[stevevw]

Seriously? What do all the experts know we should get rid of them since I think they are lying. This is not an argument, it's a demonstration of why we have to be careful of Dunning Kruger.

I'm all for the experts so long as its factual evidence and not low level or no level evidence claims which is what Trans and Gender ideology seem to be doing. Sometimes its the lack of experts that's the problem. The lack of a broad scope of evidence even a biased view. These are the hallmarks of Trans and Gender iedeology.

Like any other ideologies such as Religious or Political beliefs it can become dogmatic and moralistic. Even to the point of Totalitarianism. For example policing language and thought, condemnation even to the point of destroying those who disagree and speak out (J. K. Rawlings comes to mind).

I think many believe this ideological way of thinking which is about self referential truths or subjective truths is a sort of new way to measure reality and thus a new kind of fact in the world that even trumps science facts. A good example is Biological sex.

A core tenet of Trans and Gender ideology is that Gender and 'Sex' are fluid. It use to be gender was fluid and socially constructed (which is not completely true anyway) so it belonged to the social sciences. Sex was regarded as a biological fact of nature. But now the ideology sees Gender identity as the measure of Biological sex. So a scientific fact has been trumped by a subjective feeling about oneself as the measure of reality.

So when people say experts when it comes to this topic of gender and sex I am very skeptical as what is being passed off as expert opinion is really the fact and truth of the matter. It all depends on what the issue is, who is the expert and whether its a balanced view of things. That doesn't seem to be the case with this ideology and I am not alone in that view.

 

[stevevw]

"not found"

How can you not see the references to a spectrum. This is from page 1 of this thread.

There's no such thing as boy and girl or it can't be defined, there's multiple genders

Are doctors and development experts saying that there's really no such thing as male and female, that there's several different genders, that gender is fluid and and can't be defined

Trans includes that there's really no such thing as male and female

"No such thing as "boy and girl" or "male and female" is the same things as "no such thing as biological sex".

"Cannot be defined" and "Gender is fluid" or "has multiple genders" while conflating this with sex (as Trans and Gender ideology does) is promoting a spectrum of sex but with Gender identity being the determining factor for male and female, boy and girl. Its a sneaky tactic of bait and switch where sex and gender are used interchangably and then gradually gender takes over as the measure of what is biological sex.

 

[Belk]

I'm all for the experts so long as its factual evidence and not low level or no level evidence claims which is what Trans and Gender ideology seem to be doing. Sometimes its the lack of experts that's the problem. The lack of a broad scope of evidence even a biased view. These are the hallmarks of Trans and Gender iedeology.

Like any other ideologies such as Religious or Political beliefs it can become dogmatic and moralistic. Even to the point of Totalitarianism. For example policing language and thought, condemnation even to the point of destroying those who disagree and speak out (J. K. Rawlings comes to mind).

I think many believe this ideological way of thinking which is about self referential truths or subjective truths is a sort of new way to measure reality and thus a new kind of fact in the world that even trumps science facts. A good example is Biological sex.

A core tenet of Trans and Gender ideology is that Gender and 'Sex' are fluid. It use to be gender was fluid and socially constructed (which is not completely true anyway) so it belonged to the social sciences. Sex was regarded as a biological fact of nature. But now the ideology sees Gender identity as the measure of Biological sex. So a scientific fact has been trumped by a subjective feeling about oneself as the measure of reality.

So when people say experts when it comes to this topic of gender and sex I am very skeptical as what is being passed off as expert opinion is really the fact and truth of the matter. It all depends on what the issue is, who is the expert and whether its a balanced view of things. That doesn't seem to be the case with this ideology and I am not alone in that view.

You are free to be skeptical of course. Just as I am skeptical of anyone who thinks they can make broad claims about experts in their respective fields.

 

[essentialsaltes]

How can you not see the references to a spectrum. This is from page 1 of this thread.

Even if these met the criteria for 'spectrum', all of these quotes are from detractors. This is not what people who support trans rights have said in this thread.

Your original statement was "But we should not undermine these facts and claim that sex is some spectrum"

In the context of the thread, this 'claim' is only being brought up by detractors as a straw man.

 

[rjs330]

Even if these met the criteria for 'spectrum', all of these quotes are from detractors. This is not what people who support trans rights have said in this thread.

Your original statement was "But we should not undermine these facts and claim that sex is some spectrum"

In the context of the thread, this 'claim' is only being brought up by detractors as a straw man.

And yet in other threads that is what the supporters are saying. It's not a straw man if people are really saying it who are supporting it. Trying to limit it to this thread only limits ones view and makes it seem like no one is saying it. When in fact they are. Maybe not in this thread but in others. So it's not just detractors it's supporters.

Even in this thread, even though he hasn't come right out and said it, he has admitted that he supports the so called experts and some of them are claiming that sex is a spectrum. So if you support the experts then you support their position.

 

[stevevw]

Even if these met the criteria for 'spectrum', all of these quotes are from detractors. This is not what people who support trans rights have said in this thread.

Your original statement was "But we should not undermine these facts and claim that sex is some spectrum"

In the context of the thread, this 'claim' is only being brought up by detractors as a straw man.

Its not really a straw man in the context of how LGTIQ+ issues relate to Drag Queens. There are many Drag Queens with gender dysphoria who are non-binary and gender non-conforming. The message promoted by Drag Queens certainly in the media that promote LGBTIQ+ ideology in educating people about there being no binary sex and gender is fluid. Drag Queen story time is part of this education.

So its a natural progression to bring up Trans ideology as this too buys into and sells the ideology. If there is any straw man arguement and confusion it comes from the LGBTIQ+ and Drag Queen community. Thats because they don't even know where the lines are between LGBTIQ+ and Drag is themselves. Nor with Trans and the LGB part of the community who also conflict.

In the second series of Drag Race UK, a conversation between non-binary queens Bimini and Ginny Lemon had a huge impact on viewers who identified the same way. "It's not just about showing the young-uns that there is people like them out there, it's also educating parents."

Honey Mahogany, a San Francisco performer and former Drag Race contestant, noted that trans women could feel unwelcome in spaces that are traditionally dominated by gay men. Drag, she added, should break down the binary, not reinforce it.

Why Drag Race is still important for LGBT representation

Baga Chipz, Blu Hydrangea and Cheryl Hole on why Drag Race is still so important for representation.

www.bbc.com

Over ensuing decades, lines between drag, crossdressing, and transsexual identification blurred significantly, separated only by semi-porous membranes of politics and gender F****** (my edit). In How Sex Changed: A History of Transsexuality in the United States, Joanne Meyerowitz notes that the 1950s “female impersonator” community served as a safe haven for prospective trans women to sort out their gender issues.

Queens of the time did more than carefully impersonate celebrities and replicate “feminine” mannerisms: Many underwent early hormone replacement therapy to grow real breasts, and would provide “purple pills” to their less experienced charges along with “encouragement to pursue a woman’s life offstage.”

In films and popular culture generally, drag becomes a safe and circuitous way” of dealing with queerness, rather than a radical cross-gender experience. A major part of this was clearly the emphasis on cisgender drag queens; in the 1990s, no trans queen could hope for RuPaul’s level of fame and acceptance.

“[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]” had no major presence in cisgender, heterosexual spaces before the mid-’90s, but by the late 2000s it was ubiquitous, with drag’s surge in popularity being the most relevant cultural factor.

A Brief History of How Drag Queens Turned Against the Trans Community

The drag and trans communities were once closely allied. What happened?

www.them.us

The conflict between Drag and Trans exposes the hypocracy and incongruence of the ideology. Drag Queens are linked to the LGBTIQ+ community who support gender ideology such as queerness, gender fluid and non-binary. But Gays association with Drag Queens have traditionally been very binary in that they base their Drag on an extreme female stereotype to highlight the binary opposite of male. So if there is no binary destinction then there is no Drag Queens. So many Drag Queens exclude Trans and gender non conforming people which is contradictory to the overall ideology of Rainbow inclusion when it comes to sex and gender.

Many Drag Queens experience gender dysphoria and Drag is a way of expressing safely their non gender conforming selves which aligns with many Trans people who transition socially as the opposite sex. So there are many Drag Queens who are Trans and Gender non-conforming and the fact that this causes a conflict and confusion within these communities and mainstream society only highlights the incoherence of what is really an ideological belief and not reality.

Nonetheless, even though a drag queen is not the same as a transgender woman, “drag queens tend to engage in gender transition early in life and come to drag in part as a resolution of gender identity issues.” (Rupp et. al, 2010), which means that there are many transgender female drag queens who discovered their identity by performing femininity through drag, or who used drag as a getaway to express their gender identity.

https://uvadoc.uva.es/bitstream/handle/10324/33214/TFG_F_2018_2.pdf?sequence=1

 

[stevevw]

You are free to be skeptical of course. Just as I am skeptical of anyone who thinks they can make broad claims about experts in their respective fields.

But these are not broad claims at least as far as being non-specific and not backed by the facts and this is the main contention of those who disagree with Trans and Gender ideology.

Research has revealed a number of issues relating to the ideological claims about gender and sex and the promotion of the Affirmation and Transition model for example. Even medical bodies have pointed this out.

For example ideologues claim that there is no basis for biological sex or gender and that its a spectrum. Based on this the ideology has been pushed in society and education without a scientific basis. As a result there has been a massive increase in Gender Dyphoria especially with females and many without a history of GD. Some liken this to a social contagion. This has leed to misdiagnosis and mistreatment.

Another issue based on poor evdience is the fast tracking of youth into Transition. This has been highlighted by the closing of gender clinics and some school programs like the Safe Schools Program due to poor practices and a lack of scientific evidence based treatment.

The research shows that around 85 to 90% of those with GD desist and realign with their Nate sex. So based on faulty science or no science pushing an ideological belief has resulted in fasle positives and young people being pushed deown Transition path and permanately harming themselves psychologically and physically through hormone therapy and surgery.

In most children diagnosed with GD/gender incongruence, it did not persist into adolescence. The large majority (about 85%) of prepubertal children with a childhood diagnosis did not remain GD/gender incongruent in adolescence (20).
Endocrine Treatment of Gender-Dysphoric/Gender-Incongruent Persons: An Endocrine Society* Clinical Practice Guideline

The ideology has more or less made alternative exploratory therapies that attempt to address the underlying issues associateed with GD and possibly the cause of their psychological distress illegal which forces professionals to adhere to one ideological option (Affirmation and Transition) rather than investigate the issues based on best evidence.

American College of Pediatricians released a policy statement titled “Gender Dysphoria in Children” that asserts that there is a “vigorous, albeit suppressed, debate among physicians, therapists, and academics regarding what is fast becoming the new treatment standard for GD [gender dysphoria] in children.”

Disputing the growing trend of using hormone therapy to treat children with gender dysphoria, the College states that “a review of the current literature suggests that this protocol is founded upon an unscientific gender ideology, lacks an evidence base, and violates the long-standing ethical principle of ‘First do no harm.’”

“The treatment of GD in childhood with hormones,” the College declares, “effectively amounts to mass experimentation on, and sterilization of, youth who are cognitively incapable of providing informed consent.”
Casualties of a Social, Psychological, and Medical Fad: The Dangers of Transgender Ideology in Medicine

Another unfounded claim is that Hormone therapy and Sugical interventions do no harm and help those with GD to a happier life. But there are no long term studies or little evidence on this and if anything research shows that there are bad side effects and that changing bodies doen't really help in the long run because none of the underlying issues were addressed and there is still the problem of body dysmorphia in some ways made worse by these medical interventions which compound dysmorphia.

The evidence to support medicalised gender transitions in adolescents is worryingly weak
The evidence to support medicalised gender transitions in adolescents is worryingly weak

There are many other facts that expose this ideology which for some strange reason many so calleed experts seem not to acknowledge.

First, the materials present statistics on same-sex attraction and transgender prevalence that have no valid scientific basis. Secondly, they present sexual orientation as fixed when for school-aged adolescents it is very volatile, and many same-sex attractions are transitory. Thirdly, they present gender as fluid when for about 99.5% of the population, there is complete congruence between sexual characteristics and gender identity. Fourthly, they promote gender transitioning without the need for any medical and psychological guidance and even without parental knowledge or consent. Finally, they offer potentially misleading legal advice to teachers.
The Controversy over the Safe Schools Program – Finding the Sensible Centre

So when it comes to this issue as you can see getting the facts right is vital as it means the difference between actually helping someone or making matters worse. So when some say that Drag Queen events are not lewd given the history and track record of this ideology getting things wrong and misrepresenting the truth I am very suspicious

 

[Belk]

But these are not broad claims at least as far as being non-specific and not backed by the facts and this is the main contention of those who disagree with Trans and Gender ideology.

Research has revealed a number of issues relating to the ideological claims about gender and sex and the promotion of the Affirmation and Transition model for example. Even medical bodies have pointed this out.

For example ideologues claim that there is no basis for biological sex or gender and that its a spectrum. Based on this the ideology has been pushed in society and education without a scientific basis. As a result there has been a massive increase in Gender Dyphoria especially with females and many without a history of GD. Some liken this to a social contagion. This has leed to misdiagnosis and mistreatment.

Another issue based on poor evdience is the fast tracking of youth into Transition. This has been highlighted by the closing of gender clinics and some school programs like the Safe Schools Program due to poor practices and a lack of scientific evidence based treatment.

The research shows that around 85 to 90% of those with GD desist and realign with their Nate sex. So based on faulty science or no science pushing an ideological belief has resulted in fasle positives and young people being pushed deown Transition path and permanately harming themselves psychologically and physically through hormone therapy and surgery.

In most children diagnosed with GD/gender incongruence, it did not persist into adolescence. The large majority (about 85%) of prepubertal children with a childhood diagnosis did not remain GD/gender incongruent in adolescence (20).
Endocrine Treatment of Gender-Dysphoric/Gender-Incongruent Persons: An Endocrine Society* Clinical Practice Guideline

The ideology has more or less made alternative exploratory therapies that attempt to address the underlying issues associateed with GD and possibly the cause of their psychological distress illegal which forces professionals to adhere to one ideological option (Affirmation and Transition) rather than investigate the issues based on best evidence.

American College of Pediatricians released a policy statement titled “Gender Dysphoria in Children” that asserts that there is a “vigorous, albeit suppressed, debate among physicians, therapists, and academics regarding what is fast becoming the new treatment standard for GD [gender dysphoria] in children.”

Disputing the growing trend of using hormone therapy to treat children with gender dysphoria, the College states that “a review of the current literature suggests that this protocol is founded upon an unscientific gender ideology, lacks an evidence base, and violates the long-standing ethical principle of ‘First do no harm.’”

“The treatment of GD in childhood with hormones,” the College declares, “effectively amounts to mass experimentation on, and sterilization of, youth who are cognitively incapable of providing informed consent.”
Casualties of a Social, Psychological, and Medical Fad: The Dangers of Transgender Ideology in Medicine

Another unfounded claim is that Hormone therapy and Sugical interventions do no harm and help those with GD to a happier life. But there are no long term studies or little evidence on this and if anything research shows that there are bad side effects and that changing bodies doen't really help in the long run because none of the underlying issues were addressed and there is still the problem of body dysmorphia in some ways made worse by these medical interventions which compound dysmorphia.

The evidence to support medicalised gender transitions in adolescents is worryingly weak
The evidence to support medicalised gender transitions in adolescents is worryingly weak

There are many other facts that expose this ideology which for some strange reason many so calleed experts seem not to acknowledge.

First, the materials present statistics on same-sex attraction and transgender prevalence that have no valid scientific basis. Secondly, they present sexual orientation as fixed when for school-aged adolescents it is very volatile, and many same-sex attractions are transitory. Thirdly, they present gender as fluid when for about 99.5% of the population, there is complete congruence between sexual characteristics and gender identity. Fourthly, they promote gender transitioning without the need for any medical and psychological guidance and even without parental knowledge or consent. Finally, they offer potentially misleading legal advice to teachers.
The Controversy over the Safe Schools Program – Finding the Sensible Centre

So when it comes to this issue as you can see getting the facts right is vital as it means the difference between actually helping someone or making matters worse. So when some say that Drag Queen events are not lewd given the history and track record of this ideology getting things wrong and misrepresenting the truth I am very suspicious