• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Note to Frederich Nietzsche

Jacob4Jesus

Dork For Jesus and Proud of It
Sep 18, 2003
2,826
170
50
Wauconda, IL
✟3,922.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Ragamuffin said:
I suppose you are right. I would invite anyone to share with me the benefit of his life and ideas.

What was the theme of his teachings?
Can you sum up his life in a nutshell?
In your opinion, what kind of lagacy did he leave?
What are the results of his way of life? How did they affect others?
Where are the majority of writings contained?

Curiously wondering,
Ragamuffin
I definitely respect your openness to learn. I wish I could say more about Nietzsche, but I don't know a lot myself. Just generally made a point. All I can really remember from him (besides the whole Superman thing) is the famous quote about what doesn't kill me only makes me stronger. I have found that true in life. Other than that, I wasn't very interested by his writings. :)
 
Upvote 0

foolsparade

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2002
1,853
25
Pennsyl-tucky
✟2,584.00
Faith
Atheist
regarding Nietzcshe's legacy, He has had a huge influence on modern culture. espeically with aritsts.

Specific 20th century figures who were influenced, either quite substantially, or in a significant part, by Nietzsche include painters, dancers, musicians, playwrights, poets, novelists, psychologists, sociologists, literary theorists, historians, and philosophers: Alfred Adler, Georges Bataille, Martin Buber, Albert Camus, E.M. Cioran, Jacques Derrida, Gilles Deleuze, Isadora Duncan, Michel Foucault, Sigmund Freud, Stefan George, André Gide, Hermann Hesse, Carl Jung, Martin Heidegger, Gustav Mahler, André Malraux, Thomas Mann, Rainer Maria Rilke, Jean-Paul Sartre, Max Scheler, Giovanni Segantini, George Bernard Shaw, Lev Shestov, Georg Simmel, Oswald Spengler, Richard Strauss, Paul Tillich, Ferdinand Tönnies, Mary Wigman, William Butler Yeats and Stefan Zweig.

That Nietzsche was able to write so prolifically and profoundly for years, while remaining in a condition of ill-health and often intense physical pain, is a testament to his spectacular mental capacities and willpower. Lesser people under the same physical pressures might not have had the inclination to pick up a pen, let alone think and record thoughts which -- created in the midst of striving for healthy self-overcoming -- would have the power to influence an entire century.


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nietzsche/
 
Upvote 0

foolsparade

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2002
1,853
25
Pennsyl-tucky
✟2,584.00
Faith
Atheist
If anyone would like to comment on the below passage, then feel free. I am trying to keep in line with the OP.
I will give a clue. The madman is Nietzsche himself. He was not the "militant" atheist that is commonly believed. If you really read this, he is expressing grave concern at this tremendous event. That regardless of someones claims to God, killing and wars still persist. I consider this a work of art.

The madman.— Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market place and cried incessantly: "I seek God! I seek God!"— As many of those who did not believe in God were standing around just then, he provoked much laughter. Has he got lost? asked one. Did he lose his way like a child? asked another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? emigrated?— Thus they yelled and laughed. The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his eyes. "Whither is God?" he cried. "I will tell you. We have killed him—you and I! All of us are his murderers! But how did we do this? How could we drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? And backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us? Do we not need to light lanterns in the morning? Do we not hear nothing as yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we smell nothing as yet of the divine decomposition?—Gods, too, decompose! God is dead! God remains dead! And we have killed him! How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives,—who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed,—and whoever is born after us, for the sake of this deed he will belong to a higher history than all history hitherto!"— Here the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners: they, too, were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern to the ground, and it broke into pieces and went out. "I have come too early," he said then; "my time is not yet. This tremendous event is still on its way, still wandering—it has not yet reached the ears of men. Lightning and thunder require time; the light of the stars requires time; deeds, though done, still require time to be seen and heard. This deed is still more distant from them than the most distant stars—and yet they have done it themselves!"

here are a few other passages that may be of interest..

The first Christian. All the world still believes in the authorship of the "Holy Spirit" or is at least still affected by this belief: when one opens the Bible one does so for "edification."... That it also tells the story of one of the most ambitious and obtrusive of souls, of a head as superstitious as it was crafty, the story of the apostle Paul--who knows this , except a few scholars? Without this strange story, however, without the confusions and storms of such a head, such a soul, there would be no Christianity...
That the ship of Christianity threw overboard a good deal of its Jewish ballast, that it went, and was able to go, among the pagans--that was due to this one man, a very tortured, very pitiful, very unpleasant man, unpleasant even to himself. He suffered from a fixed idea--or more precisely, from a fixed, ever-present, never-resting question: what about the Jewish law? and particularly the fulfillment of this law? In his youth he had himself wanted to satisfy it, with a ravenous hunger for this highest distinction which the Jews could conceive - this people who were propelled higher than any other people by the imagination of the ethically sublime, and who alone succeeded in creating a holy god together with the idea of sin as a transgression against this holiness. Paul became the fanatical defender of this god and his law and guardian of his honor; at the same time, in the struggle against the transgressors and doubters, lying in wait for them, he became increasingly harsh and evilly disposed towards them, and inclined towards the most extreme punishments. And now he found that--hot-headed, sensual, melancholy, malignant in his hatred as he was-- he was himself unable to fulfill the law; indeed, and this seemed strangest to him, his extravagant lust to domineer provoked him continually to transgress the law, and he had to yield to this thorn.
Is it really his "carnal nature" that makes him transgress again and again? And not rather, as he himself suspected later, behind it the law itself, which must constantly prove itself unfulfillable and which lures him to transgression with irresistable charm? But at that time he did not yet have this way out. He had much on his conscience - he hints at hostility, murder, magic, idolatry, lewdness, drunkenness, and pleasure in dissolute carousing - and... moments came when he said to himself:"It is all in vain; the torture of the unfulfilled law cannot be overcome."... The law was the cross to which he felt himself nailed: how he hated it! how he searched for some means to annihilate it--not to fulfill it any more himself!
And finally the saving thought struck him,... "It is unreasonable to persecute this Jesus! Here after all is the way out; here is the perfect revenge; here and nowhere else I have and hold the annihilator of the law!"... Until then the ignominious death had seemed to him the chief argument against the Messianic claim of which the new doctrine spoke: but what if it were necessary to get rid of the law?
The tremendous consequences of this idea, of this solution of the riddle, spin before his eyes; at one stroke he becomes the happiest man; the destiny of the Jews--no, of all men--seems to him to be tied to this idea, to this second of its sudden illumination; he has the thought of thoughts, the key of keys, the light of lights; it is around him that all history must revolve henceforth. For he is from now on the teacher of the annihilation of the law...
This is the first Christian, the inventor of Christianity. Until then there were only a few Jewish sectarians.

from Nietzsche's Daybreak



At the deathbed of Christianity.-- Really unreflective people are now inwardly without Christianity, and the more moderate and reflective people of the intellectual middle class now possess only an adapted, that is to say marvelously simplified Christianity. A god who in his love arranges everything in a manner that in the end will be best for us; a god who gives to us and takes from us our virtue and our happiness, so that as a whole all is meet and fit and there is no reason for us to take life sadly, let alone exclaim against it; in short, resignation and modest demands elevated to godhead - that is the best and most vital thing that still remains of Christianity. But one should notice that Christianity has thus crossed over into a gentle moralism: it is not so much 'God, freedom and immortality' that have remained, as benevolence and decency of disposition, and the belief that in the whole universe too benevolence and decency of disposition prevail: it is the euthanasia of Christianity.

from Nietzsche's Daybreak,s. 92, R.J. Hollingdale transl.


After Buddha was dead, his shadow was still shown for centuries in a cave - a tremendous, gruesome shadow. God is dead; but given the way of men, there may still be caves for thousands of years in which his shadow will be shown. -And we- we still have to vanquish his shadow, too.

from Nietzsche's The Gay Science
 
Upvote 0

Ragamuffin

Active Member
Nov 21, 2003
40
3
54
Minnesota
Visit site
✟22,676.00
Faith
Christian
It is a little hard to follow, but very interesting. His struggle with the law though, I am not sure I agree with. I know that after he became a believer he had struggles with doing right, "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. (Romans 7:15)"
His claims while a Jew are tremendous, "If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless. (Philippians 3:4-6)"

I might have to read those quotes again. Where did your fascination with FN begin? School, friends, ...?

Rag
 
Upvote 0

burrow_owl

Senior Contributor
Aug 17, 2003
8,561
381
48
Visit site
✟33,226.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Hey, I have an idea for you, Ragamuffin: go to a library and pick up a book. An ethics primer is probably the best way to get a good sense of eudamainism (oh, how i hate spelling that blasted word. it's probably the biggest reason i avoided writing about Aristotle in college).

And then pick up a basic intro to Nietzsche. Personally, i can't stand him, but it's at least worth it for the historical significance.

Seriously, both of em are really interesting and make for good reading, and it doesn't sound like you know so much about either that some reading wouldn't be worth the time and effort.

By the by: eudamainism has informed huge swaths of christian history; you should read about it if only to understand more about your faith.
 
Upvote 0

foolsparade

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2002
1,853
25
Pennsyl-tucky
✟2,584.00
Faith
Atheist
Ragamuffin said:
Did he continue writing or speaking after he went insane? Is that what you mean by ill-health?


Rag

After his collapse he never wrote another book, he did write a few letters and would often sign his name "Dionysus" or "the crucified one". In the early stages of his insanity he would sometimes strip of his clothes and sing and dance very loudly.:clap: I read that he also liked to play the piano in the midlle of the night and sing very loudly. Like alot of mental patients he had good and bad days. Towards the end of his life he recognized no one and rarley spoke. He supposedly contracted syphilis around the time he first entered college from visiting a brothel. It is believed that he was celebate for the remainder of his life., he suffered from severe migrane headaches, stomach problems, dizzyness, poor vision, he also caught a few minor diseases while in the Franco-Prussian war was as a medic orderly.
The reason he retired was due to migranes and nausea. He was a very weak person physically, but very strong spiritualy and intellectually. That brings up a good point regarding the Superman. When he spoke of power and strength he never meant physical strength or force. Nietzsche is without a doubt the most mis-understood and contraversial philosopher, and perhaps some people or children should not read him, at all. He can be very difficult to understand eventhough he wrote like a poet. He may have been one of the greates prose writers ever. "Prose" meaning that his writings are like conversation.
As you can imagine alot religious people or Christian people don't like him because of his nearly unrelenting attacks upon Christianity. I personally think that Christians could learn alot from him, he brings up points that really cannot be ignored.

I think i first became aware of him in high school, I stumbled across the Apollonian/Dionysian opposition. which is the forces of clear thought, order and harmony versus the forces of ecstacy, inspiration and art. At that point in time I had never read of someone who thought so deeply about existence and was fascinated by him even to this day. I should point out that he never wanted any followers, he never wanted to be an idol, and he often insisted that he speaks only to the very few. He thought that we as individuals should hold the highest standards for ourselves, that we are the creators, the artists.

here are a few of the more popular quotes.

To prove a conviction is quite senseless; rather, it is important to prove that one has a right to be so convinced ... Conviction is an objection, a question mark, a défi ["challenge"] (—very popular error: having the courage of one's convictions—? Rather it is a matter of having the courage for an attack on one's convictions! ! !

We possess art lest we perish of the truth.


For what purpose humanity is there should not even concern us: why you are there, that you should ask yourself: and if you have no ready answer, then set for yourself goals, high and noble goals, and perish in pursuit of them! I know of no better life purpose than to perish in attempting the great and the impossible .


There are many kinds of eyes. Even the sphinx has eyes—and consequently there are many kinds of "truths," and consequently there is no truth.

Without music life would be a mistake.

I searched for great men but found only the apes of their ideals.

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth. Thus I beg and beseech you. Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do—back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning.
 
Upvote 0

burrow_owl

Senior Contributor
Aug 17, 2003
8,561
381
48
Visit site
✟33,226.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
honestly, I wouldn't recommend Aristotle to someone except as a prank.

I'd read either an ethics primer, or better yet a book about Aristotelian ethics throughout history, which would get into its influence on christianity, and would much more engaging than a standard ahistorical philosophy text. I'll ask some of my Thomist friends, and if they come up with something I'll post it.

Unless you really like dry reading, though, don't even bother trying to read Nichomachean Ethics. Seriously.
 
Upvote 0

Eudaimonist

I believe in life before death!
Jan 1, 2003
27,482
2,738
58
American resident of Sweden
Visit site
✟126,756.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
Book recommendations sound like a good idea. It will save me much typing.

BTW, the branch of ethical theory known as eudaimonism (sometimes called virtue ethics to distinguish it from utilitarianism, duty ethics, and some other branches of ethics) has both ancient and modern examples. Almost every form of ancient Greek ethics can be considered eudaimonistic (not the hedonists, though Epicurus may barely squeak by), and Aristotle and the Stoics are excellent places to look. Two examples of modern thinkers who fit best in the eudaimonistic tradition are David Norton and Ayn Rand.

My personal eudaimonism, also that of the Fellowship of Reason, is provisionally called Eudaimonism (note the capital-E). It is structurally closest to Ayn Rand's Objectivism, but is fleshed out with ideas from some other eudaimonists (Aristotle, Stoics, David Norton, and some others) and some people who are more firmly in the psychological field, such as Joseph Campbell, Abraham Maslow, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, and Nathaniel Branden.

Reading List: Ancient eudaimonisms
Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics, plus whatever good commentaries on this book you can find
Stoic Philosophy of Seneca: Essays and Letters, essays by Seneca
The Morality of Happiness, by Julia Annas

Reading List: Modern eudaimonistic philosophy
Viable Values: A Study of Life as the Root and Reward of Morality, by Tara Smith
Personal Destinies: A Philosophy of Ethical Individualism, by David Norton
The Logical Structure of Objectivism, beta version in PDF format, by David Kelley and William Thomas

Reading List: Additional books of possible interest
The Farther Reaches of Human Nature, by Abraham Maslow
The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem, by Nathaniel Branden
The Art of Living Consciously, by Nathaniel Branden
Flow, the Psychology of Optimal Experience, by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi
The Power of Myth, by Joseph Campbell
Philosophy as a Way of Life, by Pierre Hadot
The Fellowship of Reason, by Martin Cowen
 
Upvote 0

foolsparade

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2002
1,853
25
Pennsyl-tucky
✟2,584.00
Faith
Atheist
burrow_owl said:
And then pick up a basic intro to Nietzsche. Personally, i can't stand him, but it's at least worth it for the historical significance.

Historical significance! yes, just like the bible! By the way, Happy Thanksgiving everybody..

Christianity as antiquity.-- When we hear the ancient bells growling on a Sunday morning we ask ourselves: Is it really possible! This, for a jew, crucified two thousand years ago, who said he was God's son? The proof of such a claim is lacking. Certainly the Christian religion is an antiquity projected into our times from remote prehistory; and the fact that the claim is believed - whereas one is otherwise so strict in examining pretensions - is perhaps the most ancient piece of this heritage. A god who begets children with a mortal woman; a sage who bids men work no more, have no more courts, but look for the signs of the impending end of the world; a justice that accepts the innocent as a vicarious sacrifice; someone who orders his disciples to drink his blood; prayers for miraculous interventions; sins perpetrated against a god, atoned for by a god; fear of a beyond to which death is the portal; the form of the cross as a symbol in a time that no longer knows the function and ignominy of the cross -- how ghoulishly all this touches us, as if from the tomb of a primeval past! Can one believe that such things are still believed?

from Nietzsche's Human, all too Human
 
  • Like
Reactions: ZaraDurden
Upvote 0

DLraing

paranoid~android
Nov 23, 2003
39
0
40
NJ
✟158.00
Faith
Agnostic
"The reverse side of Christian compassion for the suffering of one's neighbor is a profound suspicion of all the joy of one's neighbor, of his joy in all that he wants to do and can. "-Friedrich Nietzsche
''Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."-Nietzsche
"The world is beautiful, but has a disease called Man."-Nietzsche
"We are like shop windows in which we are continually arranging, concealing or illuminating the supposed qualities other ascribe to us - in order to deceive ourselves. "-Nietzsche

Those are just a few quotes I was able to quickly snatch out of my AIM profile. I like Nietzsche. He intrigues me to no end.
 
Upvote 0

Received

True love waits in haunted attics
Mar 21, 2002
12,817
774
42
Visit site
✟53,594.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, Nietzsche is my rejuvination whence the Kierkegaard killeth my mind.

"A thinker sees his own actions as experiments and questions -- as attempts to find out something. Success and failure are for him answers above all. To be annoyed or feel remorse because something goes wrong -- that he leaves to those who act because tehy have received orders and who have to reckon with a beating when his lordship is not satisfied with the result."
Ah, yes...quite true...*slow lovely dreams*

"The human being is spirit. But what is spirit? Spirit is the self. But what is the self? The self is a relation which relates to itself, or that in the relation which is its relating to itself. The self is not the relation but the relation's relating to itself." -- Kierkegaard

And the dreams are GONE.

*tear*

I recommend Nietzsche to anyone, preferrably those who are willing to read a text without the stubborn refusal to consider even momentarily the perspective of the author. It is the most imbecilic mistake we can make as humans, to hold fast an agreement to read a perspective that is not our own, all the while holding fast our own without a tinge of allowance for viewing those who do not see as us, that we may indeed better ourselves and sharpen our understanding; truth has but one exit.

Ah, I also recommend Kierkegaard, Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, Camus, and Shakespeare.

And don't forget the power of moviegoing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ZaraDurden
Upvote 0

Eudaimonist

I believe in life before death!
Jan 1, 2003
27,482
2,738
58
American resident of Sweden
Visit site
✟126,756.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
Received said:
I recommend Nietzsche to anyone, preferrably those who are willing to read a text without the stubborn refusal to consider even momentarily the perspective of the author. It is the most imbecilic mistake we can make as humans, to hold fast an agreement to read a perspective that is not our own, all the while holding fast our own without a tinge of allowance for viewing those who do not see as us, that we may indeed better ourselves and sharpen our understanding; truth has but one exit.

Well said!

I recommend Ayn Rand in the same light.
 
Upvote 0

tkoman

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2003
1,363
96
✟25,008.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And I too agree that Nietzsche should be read - I studied him for years, which is exactly why I can't summarize his thoughts as one poster wanted.

What I can say uis that he certainoly is one of the most self-knowing individuals you will read.

Unfortunately he is wrong - really really wrong about a lot. One of my professors even wrote a book about what value we can still get from reading Nietzsche - there always seems to be a profound dissapointment to undergraduates who take on such a daunting task as to read his body of works - which is part failure of the undergrad - perhaps they expected too much.

The power of his writing alone is worth the read - his style still gives me chills. But its a lot like Freud - historical contribution with little modern day relevance.
 
Upvote 0