Not under the law?

SAAN · Feb 16, 2014

Steeno7 said:
"Trying" simply won't cut it. You must keep it all, and you must keep it all perfectly, at all times. The standard is perfection, not just your best effort.

I know we can't keep it perfectly, but that is where grace comes into play, so we when we mess up and sin we are under grace to repent and not under the curses of the law when we don't.

SAAN · Feb 16, 2014

from scratch said:
If one is righteous, why try to be? If one follows the leading of the Holy Spirit, how do the practice sin?

None of us are perfect and out righteousness comes from Christ, but our good works are what we are judged by on judgment day.

Let's be real here, we all sin and that's why we need grace. So no matter how much we try not to sin, we will slip up from time to time.

Steeno7 · Feb 16, 2014

SAAN said:
I know we can't keep it perfectly, but that is where grace comes into play, so we when we mess up and sin we are under grace to repent and not under the curses of the law when we don't.

Ummmm, no. The curse of the law is thinking you can keep it and then "trying" to do just that. You fail. You will always fail. Which is why you need Another who has and who continues to keep it...for you, in you, and through you.

Steeno7 · Feb 16, 2014

SAAN said:
None of us are perfect and out righteousness comes from Christ, but our good works are what we are judged by on judgment day.

Let's be real here, we all sin and that's why we need grace. So no matter how much we try not to sin, we will slip up from time to time.

"Your" good works are nothing more than filthy rags to God, and that is all they will ever be.

MoreCoffee · Feb 16, 2014

It's a little bit hard to see how this thread has been spun out to 104 posts when the answer to the question "are Christian under the law" is a simple "no" with a reference to Paul's explicit statement that "we are not under law but under grace" (Romans 6:14). The context of Romans 6:14 is not too difficult to understand.

Steeno7 · Feb 16, 2014

MoreCoffee said:
It's a little bit hard to see how this thread has been spun out to 104 posts when the answer to the question "are Christian under the law" is a simple "no" with a reference to Paul's explicit statement that "we are not under law but under grace" (Romans 6:14).

And yet there are those who keep insisting otherwise...and so it goes on.....

SAAN · Feb 16, 2014

Steeno7 said:
"Your" good works are nothing more than filthy rags to God, and that is all they will ever be.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.

You can find every verses you want to give an excuse not to try to live holy, but scriptures will prove you wrong evetytime. There is a big difference in trying to follow Gods cmands in love verses having no faith and thinking being a good person will save you.

from scratch · Feb 16, 2014

SAAN said:
None of us are perfect and out righteousness comes from Christ, but our good works are what we are judged by on judgment day.

Let's be real here, we all sin and that's why we need grace. So no matter how much we try not to sin, we will slip up from time to time.

No sir. Good works have nothing to do with effecting/possessing salvation.

from scratch · Feb 16, 2014

SAAN said:
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.

You can find every verses you want to give an excuse not to try to live holy, but scriptures will prove you wrong evetytime. There is a big difference in trying to follow Gods cmands in love verses having no faith and thinking being a good person will save you.

It doesn't say nor imply keeping the law are those good works.

SAAN · Feb 16, 2014

Steeno7 said:
And yet there are those who keep insisting otherwise...and so it goes on.....

But does being under grace now give believers a ticket to sin at free will now because they are under grace? No

Romans 6:1
WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

The point of the video was we are no longer under the curse of the law and the curses it brought when you broke it because removed the curse.Now when we sin we are under grace to repent from those sins. If you dont repent from adultery or srxual immorality, you are under the law.

Steeno7 · Feb 16, 2014

SAAN said:
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.

You can find every verses you want to give an excuse not to try to live holy, but scriptures will prove you wrong evetytime. There is a big difference in trying to follow Gods cmands in love verses having no faith and thinking being a good person will save you.

There is a big difference between those works done in the power of the flesh, thinking one is doing for God, and those good works which only a Good God works in us and through us, as we live by faith in Christ.

Steeno7 · Feb 16, 2014

SAAN said:
But does being under grace now give believers a ticket to sin at free will now because they are under grace? No

Romans 6:1
WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

The point of the video was we are no longer under the curse of the law and the curses it brought when you broke it because removed the curse.Now when we sin we are under grace to repent from those sins. If you dont repent from adultery or srxual immorality, you are under the law.

That you connect Gods grace with sinning is more telling about yourself than you could ever imagine.

SAAN · Feb 16, 2014

from scratch said:
It doesn't say nor imply keeping the law are those good works.

I'm not referring to keeping the entire law of moses and living under that covenant. We are still to keep the basics Jesus said to love one another by not stealing, committing adultery, killing, coveting, adultery, sexual immorality.
These are commands that Jesus himself said we are to do and live by.

Faith without works is Dead.

from scratch · Feb 16, 2014

SAAN said:
But does being under grace now give believers a ticket to sin at free will now because they are under grace? No

Romans 6:1
WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

The point of the video was we are no longer under the curse of the law and the curses it brought when you broke it because removed the curse.Now when we sin we are under grace to repent from those sins. If you dont repent from adultery or srxual immorality, you are under the law.

Where do you get this idea one is free to sin? Are you implying there isn't grace unless one sins?

SAAN · Feb 16, 2014

Steeno7 said:
That you connect Gods grace with sinning is more telling about yourself than you could ever imagine.

You are making no sense right now and on here clearly yo argue rather than learn.

We all sin. So we need grace to repent of these sins.

SAAN · Feb 16, 2014

from scratch said:
Where do you get this idea one is free to sin? Are you implying there isn't grace unless one sins?

Define grace.
G5485

Original: χάρις

Transliteration: charis

Phonetic: khar'-ece

Thayer Definition:

grace
that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
good will, loving-kindness, favour
of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
what is due to grace
the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
the token or proof of grace, benefit
a gift of grace
benefit, bounty
thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward
Origin: from G5463

TDNT entry: 15:12,1

Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine

Strong's Definition: From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

All this grace God gives us and we still sin or in the case of many on here tell others dont worry about kepping Gods commands.

Steeno7 · Feb 16, 2014

SAAN said:
I'm not referring to keeping the entire law of moses and living under that covenant. We are still to keep the basics Jesus said to love one another by not stealing, committing adultery, killing, coveting, adultery, sexual immorality.
These are commands that Jesus himself said we are to do and live by.

Faith without works is Dead.

Well, that's just it. You don't get to choose which laws you will keep and which you will not. That's not the way it works. If you want to be under law, then you are under all of the law, and you must keep it all, perfectly. Which is what James is telling you, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." James 2:10.

Steeno7 · Feb 16, 2014

SAAN said:
You are making no sense right now and on here clearly yo argue rather than learn.

We all sin. So we need grace to repent of these sins.

It is you who is connecting grace with sin. It is you who is saying that if we are not under the law, but under grace, then we will sin. That's you.

MoreCoffee · Feb 16, 2014

My earlier post referred to Romans 6:14 in its context which I contend is not too difficult to understand. So I present the passage below along with some related passages and some thoughts about what these words of saint Paul teach Christians to do and believe.

Here is the passage:

What then shall we say? Shall we persist in sin that grace may abound? Of course not! How can we who died to sin yet live in it? Or are you unaware that we who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection. We know that our old self was crucified with him, so that our sinful body might be done away with, that we might no longer be in slavery to sin. For a dead person has been absolved from sin. If, then, we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. We know that Christ, raised from the dead, dies no more; death no longer has power over him. As to his death, he died to sin once and for all; as to his life, he lives for God. Consequently, you too must think of yourselves as (being) dead to sin and living for God in Christ Jesus. Therefore, sin must not reign over your mortal bodies so that you obey their desires. And do not present the parts of your bodies to sin as weapons for wickedness, but present yourselves to God as raised from the dead to life and the parts of your bodies to God as weapons for righteousness. For sin is not to have any power over you, since you are not under the law but under grace.
Romans 6:1-14

The faithful who are baptised are dead to sin and to the law and have risen to life in communion with Jesus Christ. The death in which the faithful share frees them from all the curses that disobedience to the law can bring. And the resurrection in which the faithful participate, through their union with Christ, is a new life in the Spirit of God which sets one free from the law that condemns and beings death. Paul explains the condemning and killing aspect of the Law at some length in 2 Corinthians 3 thus:

Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you or from you? You are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by all, shown to be a letter of Christ administered by us, written not in ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets that are hearts of flesh. Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. Not that of ourselves we are qualified to take credit for anything as coming from us; rather, our qualification comes from God, who has indeed qualified us as ministers of a new covenant, not of letter but of spirit; for the letter brings death, but the Spirit gives life.

Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, was so glorious that the Israelites could not look intently at the face of Moses because of its glory that was going to fade, how much more will the ministry of the Spirit be glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation was glorious, the ministry of righteousness will abound much more in glory. Indeed, what was endowed with glory has come to have no glory in this respect because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what was going to fade was glorious, how much more will what endures be glorious. Therefore, since we have such hope, we act very boldly and not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the Israelites could not look intently at the cessation of what was fading. Rather, their thoughts were rendered dull, for to this present day the same veil remains unlifted when they read the old covenant, because through Christ it is taken away. To this day, in fact, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their hearts, but whenever a person turns to the Lord the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. All of us, gazing with unveiled face on the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as from the Lord who is the Spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:1-18

Furthermore Paul explains what law Christians are to follow - a new law of the Spirit and not the old law of the letters which kill. He explains it thus:

Hence, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death. For what the law, weakened by the flesh, was powerless to do, this God has done: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous decree of the law might be fulfilled in us, who live not according to the flesh but according to the spirit. For those who live according to the flesh are concerned with the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit with the things of the spirit. The concern of the flesh is death, but the concern of the spirit is life and peace. For the concern of the flesh is hostility toward God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh; on the contrary, you are in the spirit, if only the Spirit of God dwells in you. Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is alive because of righteousness. If the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also, through his Spirit that dwells in you. Consequently, brothers, we are not debtors to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
Romans 8:1-12

Thus Christians are left in no doubt that the law is just and good and holy and Christians are also left in no doubt that obedience to the law cannot bring life to those who have sinned. What brings life is God's mercy and grace through Jesus Christ. And whatever people may say about an obligation to life one's life in obedience to the law a Christian ought to know that labouring under the law in that way will only being guilt and condemnation. Instead the faithful walk as the Spirit leads and their walk with God is not a labour of legal obedience but a response of love born of mercy and grace in the heart. "Your sins are forgiven" says the Lord and who can condemn you if the Son sets you free?

So while it is good and highly desirable to avoid all the wicked things that the law prohibits - such as murder, theft, adultery, dishonesty, disrespect for God and for parents, false worship of false gods or of the true God through images of any sort, greedily desiring the possessions of others, and greedily desiring another person's spouse or other person that are connected to that person - it is not a means of salvation but rather a guide to lead you to Christ. Those who fall ought to have confidence that repentance will bring merciful forgiveness and strength to "fight the goof fight" by turning from the sins that tempt and turning to God for help in times of trouble.

No Christian advocates doing wicked things.

However some people do advocate keeping the seventh day as a Christian requirement to be enjoined on every person who comes to Christ in faith. This is where the arguments about being "under the law" turn into arguments about obeying the ten commandments as they are stated in Exodus 20 with special emphasis on keeping Sabbath on the seventh day (Saturday). But since Sabbath threads abound on this forum I shall not canvass that Issue more in this reply.

May God keep all who read faithful and free with the liberty with which Christ has set you free.

SAAN · Feb 16, 2014

Steeno7 said:
It is you who is connecting grace with sin. It is you who is saying that if we are not under the law, but under grace, then we will sin. That's you.

Sin is transgression of the law aka breaking Gods commands, so when we sin we are not under the law anymore, but rather grace. The bible makes that pretty clear.

I nowhere said that now I'm under grace that we will want to sin. I'm saying that we are human and all mess up from time to time and sin and that is where Gods grace gives us a chance to repent of those sins.

Commit adultery in the OT and you could be stoned or cut off from your people.

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