Not under the Law, but under grace?

[k4c]

What does it mean to be, not under the Law but under grace?

Does it mean we no long have to obey the Law?

John 8:3-5 Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. "Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?''

Here we have the scribes and Pharisees pointing out the sin of adultery and the requirement of the Law to punish for sin. Here is Jesus' response and the meaning and purpose of grace.

John 8:10-11 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, "Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?'' She said, "No one, Lord.'' And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you;

Here we have Jesus pouring out grace instead of punishment. But does this grace mean she can continue in that sin? Well, let's hear what Jesus says next.

"go and sin no more.''

Here is how we should interptet these things.

Should she continue in sin because God's grace withheld the requirement of the Law to punish sin?

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Should she continue in adultery so that God can pour our more grace?

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

Grace is God empowering us to live pefect when we're not perfect. It's not God giving us license to sin because we are not perfect.

Jude 1:4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

We can say we know God but deny Him by how we live in disobedience.

Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

 

[Kira Light]

Grace is God empowering us to live pefect when we're not perfect. It's not God giving us license to sin because we are not perfect.

This is interesting. So, you literally never sin? Ever?

I've never really heard grace being described this way. Grace existing without sin. Like in your sinless and perfect life, where you have grace empowering you not to sin. Hmm..

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

This is interesting. So, you literally never sin? Ever?

I've never really heard grace being described this way. Grace existing without sin. Like in your sinless and perfect life, where you have grace empowering you not to sin. Hmm..

Not what he's saying Kira... if you understood sanctification, you would understand K4C's post.

 

[k4c]

This is interesting. So, you literally never sin? Ever?

I've never really heard grace being described this way. Grace existing without sin. Like in your sinless and perfect life, where you have grace empowering you not to sin. Hmm..

The grace of God empowers us to live perfectly in the eyes of God because were sin abounds, grace much more abounds. This is not to say we don't sin, but rather, God has created a means to keep us in fellowship when we do sin through confession, 1 John 1:9. Otherwise, under the letter of the Law, we sould be put to death for sin. This is not so under the new covenant. Under the new covenant we are not under the law of sin and death. In other words, you sin you die. But rather God's forgivness and mercy draws us to Him and keeps us with Him, if we truly want to be with Him, even in all our short falls, weaknesses and imperfections. But we are not to turn the grace of God into a license to break God's Law ie: sin.

Remember, the process of sin goes like this. First comes the temptation, which gives birth to sin and when sin is full grown it bringsforth death.

A mature Christian who is in love with God can sometimes make it through the temptation without proceeding to the next step. A young Christian may fall in the temptation, which gives birth to sin but he is still not dead. This is where the Spirit moves to convict in the work of salvation. The young Christian, if his desire is to grow and continue with God, will repent and 1 John 1:9 and in God's eyes, it never happened. Part of being perfect in the eyes of God is repentance. But if the Christian rejects the working of the Spirit and continues to nurture that sin it will grow and bringforth spiritual death. Spiritual death is not where a Christian wants to be.

James 5:19-20 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

That was probably one of the best 'milk' explanations of sanctification I've heard... praise the Lord for His wisdom!!

 

[Kira Light]

Not what he's saying Kira... if you understood sanctification, you would understand K4C's post.

helpful as always. thank you.

 

[Kira Light]

The grace of God empowers us to live perfectly in the eyes of God because were sin abounds, grace much more abounds. This is not to say we don't sin, but rather, God has created a means to keep us in fellowship when we do sin through confession, 1 John 1:9. Otherwise, under the letter of the Law, we sould be put to death for sin. This is not so under the new covenant. Under the new covenant we are not under the law of sin and death. In other words, you sin you die. But rather God's forgivness and mercy draws us to Him and keeps us with Him, if we truly want to be with Him, even in all our short falls, weaknesses and imperfections. But we are not to turn the grace of God into a license to break God's Law ie: sin.

Remember, the process of sin goes like this. First comes the temptation, which gives birth to sin and when sin is full grown it bringsforth death.

A mature Christian who is in love with God can sometimes make it through the temptation without proceeding to the next step. A young Christian may fall in the temptation, which gives birth to sin but he is still not dead. This is where the Spirit moves to convict in the work of salvation. The young Christian, if his desire is to grow and continue with God, will repent and 1 John 1:9 and in God's eyes, it never happened. Part of being perfect in the eyes of God is repentance. But if the Christian rejects the working of the Spirit and continues to nurture that sin it will grow and bringforth spiritual death. Spiritual death is not where a Christian wants to be.

James 5:19-20 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

This sounds like we earn grace by keeping the law to me. It is an interesting perspective, but knowing the Sabbath is looming behind everything kind of spoils it for me.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

This sounds like we earn grace by keeping the law to me. It is an interesting perspective, but knowing the Sabbath is looming behind everything kind of spoils it for me.

Why so opposed to keeping the Sabbath... do you think God will be displeased if we honour Him and worship Him on that day?

He has specifically told us to and hasn't specifically told us not to, so where's the harm? Doesn't mean you have to tie anything to it, just honour the Sabbath to honour God....

 

[Stryder06]

This sounds like we earn grace by keeping the law to me. It is an interesting perspective, but knowing the Sabbath is looming behind everything kind of spoils it for me.

Kira, the issue isn't the sabbath, the issue is obedience. Too often the focus is brought to sabbath as if keeping the sabbath in and of itself brings salvation. This couldn't be further from the truth. We are called to be obedient to our Lord, and that is the issue we're dealing with. Disobedience = rebellion, and it is rebellion that lead to the fall of 1/3 of the heavenly hosts, and that will lead to the destruction of a large number of humanity.

We have to be willing to give our all to Christ, to be obedient to His law, as loyal subjects of His kingdom.

 

[taikachanz]

Kira, the issue isn't the sabbath, the issue is obedience. Too often the focus is brought to sabbath as if keeping the sabbath in and of itself brings salvation. This couldn't be further from the truth. We are called to be obedient to our Lord, and that is the issue we're dealing with. Disobedience = rebellion, and it is rebellion that lead to the fall of 1/3 of the heavenly hosts, and that will lead to the destruction of a large number of humanity.

We have to be willing to give our all to Christ, to be obedient to His law, as loyal subjects of His kingdom.

It might help if people understood more why we as SDAs keep the commandments the way we do. Perhaps these will help.

Exodus 20:4-6 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fouth generation of them that hate me; and shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments."
(Repeated in Duet. 5:8-10)

Duet. 6:5 "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might."

Duet. 7:9 "Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."
(Note a generation is 40 years, 40 * 1000 is 40000 years. The Biblical account is just under 6000 years. Looks like we've go another 34000 years remaining.)

Duet. 11:1 "Therefore thou shalt love the Lord thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgements and his commandments, alway."
(Note: didn't say until the Messiah came, but alway.)

Neh. 1:5 (Nehemiah praying to God, opening statement) "And said, I beseech the, O Lord God of heaven, the great and terrible God, that keepeth covenant and mercy for them that love him and observe his commandments."

Dan. 9:4 (Daniel praying to God opening statement.) "And I prayed unto the Lord my God and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments."

Matt. 22:37 (Jesus reiterating a commanment) "Jesus said unto them, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."
(Repeated in Mark 12:30)

Matt. 22:33 (Understood by a scribe) "And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offering and sacrifices."

Luke 10:27 ( A lawgiver understands) "And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength and with all thy mind and thy neighbor as thyself."

John 14:15 "If ye love me keep my commandments."

John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will manifest myself to him."

John 15:10 "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my father's commandments, and abide in his love."

1John 5:2-3 "By this know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

So, why do we keep the ten commandments. Not because we have to, not because it is a requirement of the SDA church, but because we love God. Here is another point. Jesus has told us that to hate or be angry with a neighbor, or even a stranger, was the same as murder, the breaking of the sixth commandment. Now hear what John says concerning this.

1 John 4:20 "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"

For us to "see" God we look at his character, and where is the best place to observe God's character but in his law.

There is one theme that runs throughout all of the preceding scirptures, Love and obedience are intertwined. With out love there can be no obedience and without obedience there is no proof of love. Notice also that in vertually every case love is always mentioned first. First comes the love, then comes the obedience. Do you love the Lord? Keep his commandments.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

It might help if people understood more why we as SDAs keep the commandments the way we do... For us to "see" God we look at his character, and where is the best place to observe God's character but in his law.

There is one theme that runs throughout all of the preceding scirptures, Love and obedience are intertwined. With out love there can be no obedience and without obedience there is no proof of love. Notice also that in vertually every case love is always mentioned first. First comes the love, then comes the obedience. Do you love the Lord? Keep his commandments.

Amen!! Very well stated...

 

[OldStudent]

This sounds like we earn grace by keeping the law to me. It is an interesting perspective, but knowing the Sabbath is looming behind everything kind of spoils it for me.

In the court of the Tabernacle was an intersting furnishing - the Laver. The laver was made brass from the womens mirrors. The laver took a high polish. The laver also contained water used for washing (cleansing). Before the priest could enter the tabernacle he would look at himself in the laver and wash himself with the water contained in the laver. He might even straigten his attire. Jesus is the water of life. We look at ourselves using the law to define and identify dirt and imperfections on/in us. Jesus makes Himself available to us to wash away our dirt and wrinkles.

Dealing with such things as the Sabbath for the better part of 60 years I have some appreciation for your reservations about Sabbath. But in just the last year I read a challenging piece in our local marketing paper by a Church of Christ pastor endeavoring to "debunk" those of us who still regard the Sabbath. I took another look. What a blessing! I took another look at all the interactions I could find where Jesus interacted with the Sabbath. Also in recent years I have been recasting all my doctrinal understanding in the light of "God is love." I discovered God gave us life in Eden with a kiss. The next day He established a weekly "date" set aside for fellowship with the ones He loves and who love Him. He considers the time so valuable He wrote the time in stone with His own finger. During His life among us He took a lot of heat, jeopardizing His ministry and life, in His defense of it.

I don't want to be taken as jumping on your case. I ask that you look at your own statement and evaluate it. I ask that we who noted your sense regarding the Sabbath hold you up in prayer that you discover the "date" God is looking forward to having with you. I venture to say most of us would profit from that same prayer.

God bless and come close to you.

 

[Cribstyl]

What does it mean to be, not under the Law but under grace?

Does it mean we no long have to obey the Law?

John 8:3-5 Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. "Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?''

Here we have the scribes and Pharisees pointing out the sin of adultery and the requirement of the Law to punish for sin. Here is Jesus' response and the meaning and purpose of grace.

John 8:10-11 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, "Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?'' She said, "No one, Lord.'' And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you;

Here we have Jesus pouring out grace instead of punishment. But does this grace mean she can continue in that sin? Well, let's hear what Jesus says next.

"go and sin no more.''

Here is how we should interptet these things.

Should she continue in sin because God's grace withheld the requirement of the Law to punish sin?

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Should she continue in adultery so that God can pour our more grace?

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

Grace is God empowering us to live pefect when we're not perfect. It's not God giving us license to sin because we are not perfect.

Jude 1:4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

We can say we know God but deny Him by how we live in disobedience.

Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

My response to the OP and the 2 questions above will follow.

 

[taikachanz]

My response to the OP and the 2 questions above will follow.

What will follow will be a commentary that will twist and bend the Word to fit to what Crib wants it to say... Been there, Done That....

 

[Cribstyl]

What does it mean to be, not under the Law but under grace?

Does it mean we no long have to obey the Law?

Man you're quoting from Rom 6 chapter.
Providing answers to those questions without referencing Paul do not make a whole lot of sense if he provide answers in context.

You commentary is in the drivers seat therefore you're taking us for a ride.. Reading the chapter 6 should be applied to understanding.
This is the NLT version.............

Since God's grace has set us free from the law, does this mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! Don't you realize that whatever you choose to obey becomes your master? You can choose sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God and receive his approval.

Once you were slaves of sin, but now you have obeyed with all your heart the new teaching God has given you. Now you are free from sin, your old master, and you have become slaves to your new master, righteousness.

Now you must choose to be slaves of righteousness so that you will become holy.
In those days, when you were slaves of sin, you weren't concerned with doing what was right. And what was the result? It was not good, since now you are ashamed of the things you used to do, things that end in eternal doom. But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Cribstyl]

Since God's grace has set us free from the law, does this mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! Don't you realize that whatever you choose to obey becomes your master?

You can choose sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God and receive his approval.

Once you were slaves of sin, but now you have obeyed with all your heart the new teaching God has given you. Now you are free from sin, your old master, and you have become slaves to your new master, righteousness.

Now you must choose to be slaves of righteousness so that you will become holy.
In those days, when you were slaves of sin, you weren't concerned with doing what was right. And what was the result? It was not good, since now you are ashamed of the things you used to do, things that end in eternal doom. But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

The scriptures in saying......grace has set us free from the law... (I smell contradiction )
A good question in context is(Q: What law are we free from?)
The scriptures then asks, does that mean we should live in sin? NO WAY!!!
We know we're commanded not to do sinful acts.,....(so when K4c makes up thread about the 3rd commandment or post examples about my wife committing adultery:o to prove content the law, to say we're still under the law )

Paul is teaching us that we're free from the law and we should not sin .

This proves that sin in not dependant on there being a law to define it.
Sin is any kind of unrigteousness whether the law defines it or not.


The bible proves that righteousness is obedience to the words of God, not only the law.
The fact that Paul teaches;
Righteousness Through Faith is apart from the law...proves being under the law is oppose to faith.
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, [fn9] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished–
26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.



K4c then asks; Does it mean we no long have to obey the Law?

The lesson is teaching we dont have to sin. It's not teaching that we have be accountable to the law. That's why I see K4c as teaching by commentary rather than giving understanding to the doctrines the bible teach line upon line. Going from isolated text to another isolated text can make what you're saying seem true.