Not that this will stop my conversion . . .

Light of the East · Mar 17, 2022

but Fr. Damick makes a good point here:

Is There a Triumph of Orthodoxy? — Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick (ancientfaith.com)

And certainly, the same could be said about Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. We have hardly begun to see what a real Christian society would look like.

My Daughter Has Never Seen Christianity – Muddling Through Life (wordpress.com)

Be kind in disagreement with anything you read.

Hope all are having a spiritually prosperous Lent! I can hardly wait for Pascha!

ArmyMatt · Mar 17, 2022

you as well!

Not David · Mar 17, 2022

Light of the East said:
but Fr. Damick makes a good point here:

Is There a Triumph of Orthodoxy? — Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick (ancientfaith.com)

And certainly, the same could be said about Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. We have hardly begun to see what a real Christian society would look like.

My Daughter Has Never Seen Christianity – Muddling Through Life (wordpress.com)

Be kind in disagreement with anything you read.

Hope all are having a spiritually prosperous Lent! I can hardly wait for Pascha!

We live in a fallen world, of course, things aren't going to be 100 percent perfect, also the idea is mainly about the triumph over heresy such as iconoclasm. No need to be contrarian.

seashale76 · Mar 17, 2022

I tend to agree with Fr. Damick on this. Also- that blog post was quite sad- and I can see things from both the woman's perspective and her daughters'.

I encountered toxic fundamentalist beliefs towards women as a child too. Luckily, my family was always quick to point how this toxic misogyny was a product of poor, uneducated ignorant people who weren't worth emulating, even if they called themselves Christians. I've also encountered them in Orthodoxy. In fact, the most dehumanized I've ever felt as a person has been at the hands of an Orthodox priest (now- thankfully- defrocked). Unfortunately, the ROC doesn't show the light of Christ towards women so much either.

There is a lot of toxic misogyny out there online in the Orthodox sphere too. Young men who- on the one hand- idealize toxic stereotypes for themselves and any young women they may be interested in yet who- on the other hand- lament that none of it appeals to the women they're interested in and that there are a lack of young single women interested in becoming Orthodox. The conclusion is that women (specifically 'feminists') are to blame. I get that people yearn for something more than what this fallen post-modern world shows us as the ideal- however- the solution is not to jettison the baby with the bath water and go to the opposite Sharia 1950s Mad Men style extreme.

You and I both know that Orthodox Christianity truly does not believe in the negative things that even the ROC presents to us. I think it is fairly obvious that the fusion of Orthodoxy with the Russian government is far from a Christian societal ideal. For example, Russia getting rid of its domestic violence laws back in 2017 was far from a good thing. However- the ROC publicly supports it as being a societal (i.e. Christian) good- which is insane.

I remember watching this video when it came out and it hits on this issue very succinctly:

Andrei D · Mar 17, 2022

Light of the East said:
We have hardly begun to see what a real Christian society would look like.

A Christian society? Yes, not really. So called "Orthodox countries" are anything but Orthodox at a society / nation-state level, too.

But I think that's never been the goal. Or the promise. Not established by human hands, anyway. My stance: we were promised / warned we'd be living in the exact opposite. Always.

seashale76 · Mar 17, 2022

Andrei D said:
A Christian society? Yes, not really. So called "Orthodox countries" are anything but Orthodox at a society / nation-state level, too.

But I think that's never been the goal. Or the promise. Not established by human hands, anyway. My stance: we were promised / warned we'd be living in the exact opposite. Always.

It's part of what makes the whole Third Rome thing more insidious to me. Also- Orthodox youtube is rife with these channels that promote it. There was one that a few weeks ago had this whole 'Our Tsar is Coming!' video- which seems even more horrific now. It confused me greatly before- but I'm actually very sick when I think about what they truly meant in light of this incursion into Ukraine.

Not David · Mar 17, 2022

seashale76 said:
I tend to agree with Fr. Damick on this. Also- that blog post was quite sad- and I can see things from both the woman's perspective and her daughters'.

I encountered toxic fundamentalist beliefs towards women as a child too. Luckily, my family was always quick to point how this toxic misogyny was a product of poor, uneducated ignorant people who weren't worth emulating, even if they called themselves Christians. I've also encountered them in Orthodoxy. In fact, the most dehumanized I've ever felt as a person has been at the hands of an Orthodox priest (now- thankfully- defrocked). Unfortunately, the ROC doesn't show the light of Christ towards women so much either.

There is a lot of toxic misogyny out there online in the Orthodox sphere too. Young men who- on the one hand- idealize toxic stereotypes for themselves and any young women they may be interested in yet who- on the other hand- lament that none of it appeals to the women they're interested in and that there are a lack of young single women interested in becoming Orthodox. The conclusion is that women (specifically 'feminists') are to blame. I get that people yearn for something more than what this fallen post-modern world shows us as the ideal- however- the solution is not to jettison the baby with the bath water and go to the opposite Sharia 1950s Mad Men style extreme.

You and I both know that Orthodox Christianity truly does not believe in the negative things that even the ROC presents to us. I think it is fairly obvious that the fusion of Orthodoxy with the Russian government is far from a Christian societal ideal. For example, Russia getting rid of its domestic violence laws back in 2017 was far from a good thing. However- the ROC publicly supports it as being a societal (i.e. Christian) good- which is insane.

I remember watching this video when it came out and it hits on this issue very succinctly:

Russia did not get rid of domestic violence laws, even under that law, first-time offenses that do not result in "serious bodily harm" carry a maximum fine of 30,000 rubles, up to 15 days' administrative arrest, or up to 120 hours of community service.

I'm concerned about all of this anti-ROC talk it has been going on.

Pavel Mosko · Mar 17, 2022

Light of the East said:
but Fr. Damick makes a good point here:

Is There a Triumph of Orthodoxy? — Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick (ancientfaith.com)

And certainly, the same could be said about Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. We have hardly begun to see what a real Christian society would look like.

My Daughter Has Never Seen Christianity – Muddling Through Life (wordpress.com)

Be kind in disagreement with anything you read.

Hope all are having a spiritually prosperous Lent! I can hardly wait for Pascha!

This actually is good news. Christian Communions and sects always are the most annoying and least Christian when they believe themselves triumphant.

seashale76 · Mar 17, 2022

Not David said:
Russia did not get rid of domestic violence laws, even under that law, first-time offenses that do not result in "serious bodily harm" carry a maximum fine of 30,000 rubles, up to 15 days' administrative arrest, or up to 120 hours of community service.

I'm concerned about all of this anti-ROC talk it has been going on.

It's only very recently that anyone could criticize the ROC without all of Internet Orthodoxy coming down on his/her head. In the on-line sphere I've found that the same people who admonish everyone for being critical of the ROC tend to be the same ones who don't hold the same standard when it comes to criticizing the EP. The truth is, Russia has a real problem with domestic violence. The ROC has a problem of backing up the government when it comes to Russia's abysmal domestic violence record. It's far from a good look. Let's not be apologists for the indefensible.

Her husband chopped off her hands. Now she’s Russia’s voice against abuse
Top Russian Priest In Hot Water For Saying Men Smarter Than Women
Russia Decriminalized Domestic Violence With Support from the Russian Orthodox Church

Not David · Mar 17, 2022

seashale76 said:
It's only very recently that anyone could criticize the ROC without all of Internet Orthodoxy coming down on his/her head. In the on-line sphere I've found that the same people who admonish everyone for being critical of the ROC tend to be the same ones who don't hold the same standard when it comes to criticizing the EP. The truth is, Russia has a real problem with domestic violence. The ROC has a problem of backing up the government when it comes to Russia's abysmal domestic violence record. It's far from a good look. Let's not be apologists for the indefensible.

Her husband chopped off her hands. Now she’s Russia’s voice against abuse
Top Russian Priest In Hot Water For Saying Men Smarter Than Women
Russia Decriminalized Domestic Violence With Support from the Russian Orthodox Church

I have already shown you that those incidents get penalized so it is silly to say "oh that means they support hitting women" and somehow police not doing their jobs is the Russian Church's fault, right?

Andrei D · Mar 17, 2022

seashale76 said:
It's part of what makes the whole Third Rome thing more insidious to me. Also- Orthodox youtube is rife with these channels that promote it. There was one that a few weeks ago had this whole 'Our Tsar is Coming!' video- which seems even more horrific now. It confused me greatly before- but I'm actually very sick when I think about what they truly meant in light of this incursion into Ukraine.

I agree and am very, very wary about this stuff.

seashale76 · Mar 17, 2022

Not David said:
I have already shown you that those incidents get penalized so it is silly to say "oh that means they support hitting women" and somehow police not doing their jobs is the Russian Church's fault, right?

They've been decriminalized. It's a misdemeanor now. Domestic violence in Russia was already bad before and now it is worse. Women and children are absolutely NOT being protected by the law there. The ROC is against the government reinstating their old domestic violence laws too. They have had official statements about it- one even talking about how it is 'good for the soul'. Again- some things can't be defended.

Lukaris · Mar 17, 2022

I hope more priests in Russia are reading this essay by St. Maria Skobtsova written in the late 1930s ( about 25 printed pp.).

Types of Religious Lives – Incommunion

rusmeister · Mar 17, 2022

seashale76 said:
They've been decriminalized. It's a misdemeanor now. Domestic violence in Russia was already bad before and now it is worse. Women and children are absolutely NOT being protected by the law there. The ROC is against the government reinstating their old domestic violence laws too. They have had official statements about it- one even talking about how it is 'good for the soul'. Again- some things can't be defended.

I am not sure how you know this. I live here, and abuse happens here as it happens everywhere, but I think the idea that Russians are somehow different and think the actual abuse of women to be normal is something seen through the palantir of Denethor, that is, the crooked view offered by the media that offers those crooked understandings to all of us. It happens, but I don’t know anybody who thinks it is “OK”, and I live here.

rusmeister · Mar 17, 2022

seashale76 said:
It's only very recently that anyone could criticize the ROC without all of Internet Orthodoxy coming down on his/her head. In the on-line sphere I've found that the same people who admonish everyone for being critical of the ROC tend to be the same ones who don't hold the same standard when it comes to criticizing the EP. The truth is, Russia has a real problem with domestic violence. The ROC has a problem of backing up the government when it comes to Russia's abysmal domestic violence record. It's far from a good look. Let's not be apologists for the indefensible.

Her husband chopped off her hands. Now she’s Russia’s voice against abuse
Top Russian Priest In Hot Water For Saying Men Smarter Than Women
Russia Decriminalized Domestic Violence With Support from the Russian Orthodox Church

I have seen two sides opposing each other, with unreasonable extremes in both directions, for my entire two decades as an adult Orthodox Christian. Certainly, the extreme right would come down on the heads of those who criticized the ROC, but some of the critics were themselves the extreme left, often including criticism of normal and traditional views along with the extreme and unreasonable views that they criticize. The unreasonable view that all women should be “barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen” has been countered by the unreasonable view that sexual anarchy should be normalized. The defenders of bad faith in the ROC have been matched by defenders of bad faith in the Greek and other Churches.

And again, I think it is not reasonable for most people to think themselves especially knowledgeable about domestic violence even in one’s own nation, let alone in foreign nations. Yes, you can compile news and statistics, but the news by definition reports only the abnormal, and NOT the normal, and has strong incentive to exaggerate it.

Not David · Mar 17, 2022

rusmeister said:
I have seen two sides opposing each other, with unreasonable extremes in both directions, for my entire two decades as an adult Orthodox Christian. Certainly, the extreme right would come down on the heads of those who criticized the ROC, but some of the critics were themselves the extreme left, often including criticism of normal and traditional views along with the extreme and unreasonable views that they criticize. The unreasonable view that all women should be “barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen” has been countered by the unreasonable view that sexual anarchy should be normalized. The defenders of bad faith in the ROC have been matched by defenders of bad faith in the Greek and other Churches.

And again, I think it is not reasonable for most people to think themselves especially knowledgeable about domestic violence even in one’s own nation, let alone in foreign nations. Yes, you can compile news and statistics, but the news by definition reports only the abnormal, and NOT the normal, and has strong incentive to exaggerate it.

Since you are in Russia, do you know exactly what's was the whole situation with the Russian Church and the domestic abuse law situation? Maybe my knowledge is limited.

ArmyMatt · Mar 17, 2022

rusmeister said:
something seen through the palantir of Denethor,

haha, great analogy

rusmeister · Mar 18, 2022

Not David said:
Since you are in Russia, do you know exactly what's was the whole situation with the Russian Church and the domestic abuse law situation? Maybe my knowledge is limited.

Actually, my main point is that all of our knowledge is limited. We have, essentially, personal, direct knowledge, the reports of people we know, and the reports of people we don't know (the news media). The latter are centrally owned and controlled, and give us distorted pictures. Thus my reference to a palantir.
My personal direct knowledge and that of all the people I know points to a decisive rejection and condemnation of abuse. I know of one case only at present - that of a 90-yr old man who abused his 89-yr old wife (she now lives separately), and it is clearly dementia that is the cause. Once in a great while we hear of someone distant who abused or suffered abuse, and everyone says "Koshmar!" ("What a nightmare!").
All reports, then, come from the centralized media, whose purpose and function is to report, not the rule of life, but the exceptions of life. Only on the most local news might you see even occasionally a report of ordinary life as such (such as a teacher receiving an award for 25 years of service, or a local man celebrating his 100th birthday). Such things are essentially not reported on the national news at all, which focuses only on the most sensational, and that has value only if and when it is not a distortion of the picture of the world as a whole.
Wickedness happens. But some wickedness is put under a magnifying glass, and shown as the whole picture. This has been the main force keeping feminism going, which is an attack on the human family by declaring the supremacy of the individual over the family, and the sexes as competing more than cooperating.

Andrei D · Mar 18, 2022

@rusmeister you are absolutely right. And it is far more general, it is also a big threat to everyone: it fosters despondency and wrath. Watching news, reading magazines, one constantly receives a distorted, demonic interpretation of reality. Everywhere, all the time. I had to stop doing it. This is obvious and broadly known.. it is weird to even have to state it, it is truistic really. So, it's surprising when people ignore this basic fact when they build their worldviews...

But I think in the scope of this specific thread, you'd agree that not even in Russia, not even in Greece, nowhere does a quasi-utopian "Orthodox society" exist, nor should we compromise with the dark powers in the misguided hope of bringing it about by force... That was my point, anyway, fwiw.

Not that this will stop my conversion . . .

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