not sure what to do , borderline tempted to cheat

[Tropical Wilds]

As a woman, I can say that I don't like a guy who's the big, macho "bad boy." I want stability, I want true love, I want somebody who'll care for me and my family. Somebody who's supportive and genuinely cares about me and what I'm about. Are there women that are all about the bad boy? I'm sure there are. But not all, or even most women, are into one particular type any more then men are into only one type of woman.

To generalize and say that women are drawn to bad boys or men that treat them like garbage is, I think, a combination of things... It's men wanting to say they're the good guy which is why they can't compete with the bad guy because it's so much easier then saying "Hey, I was a jerk and she's moving on to greener pastures." It's men doing that comparison between themselves that only men can do (and it has a phrase that I can't use here) that will automatically default to the other guy being the loser and then conclusion that women enjoy losers.

What I think would be more productive is to actually approach the women in question and ask what she wants and see if you can provide it. If she does, then work on the relationship. If she doesn't, it's not because she prefers jerks, it's because she doesn't prefer you. Along what Zoolander was saying... There is such a thing as "she's just not that in to you." That book should be required life reading, I swear to snot.

Am I saying this guy's wife isn't into him? No, I'm not... Who knows what the deal is. But it reminds me of the phrase "a man can fix a problem with sex, a woman can't have sex until the problem is fixed." In the end, you can make two choices, list off all the ways that your partner isn't meeting your needs while applauding all the ways you feel you are (or should be) meeting theirs, or you can make a genuine effort together in trying to salvage things. It may mean, at some point along the way, somebody's needs are being met while somebody else's aren't, it may mean that you find out you truly were incompatible, it may mean that what your expectations for a marriage should be have to shift... It may mean a lot of things. But whatever it means, it'll get you way further down the road of reconciliation (not to mention you'll be able to honestly know you did all you could) if you just put the scorecards down and see where things progress. And it may take awhile for them to progress anywhere. You accept it, you lump it, or you leave it.

OP: I notice you said you saw that (freaking awful) movie "Fireproof." I'm going to say you watched it, you didn't see it... You remember where for the first half of the movie, the guy was a jerk, then he decided the "on a dime" change... What response did that get him? Rejection. Repeated rejection. With no sign of anything different. If you take that into account, and if you break it down from your wife's perspective, in less then a year, her marital dynamics changed from an inattentive, emotionally absent husband, to a husband who demands physical involvement for what he interprets as his meeting her needs, who underwent a massive spiritual change, a pregnancy, now a rocky marriage. There's not a lot of room to process all of that while simultaneously being that sex kitten you demand as a "thank you" for your being there for her. Since it didn't work overnight, or even in a year, for you two to lose the plot, don't expect anything different when it comes to fixing it, especially with all the variables that keep popping up.

Ask yourself what you want out of the marriage, and if you're willing to work for it for more then just a year. Where you become the husband she wants, not the husband you think she wants or the husband you think you should be. Ask yourself if you want to continue in rejection with the overall goal of fixing it, even with the persistent possibility of failure. If the answer is yes, then focus on that and not all that you're doing that you haven't been rewarded with sex for. If the answer is no, then, well... There you go. But prepare yourself for more rejection, lack of sex and intimacy, and gaps between fulfillment while you're looking for a new partner. And ask yourself if you'll stick it out when the same problems present themselves in your new relationship.

And don't use the Bible to justify the choice to go. You either make it and justify it yourself, or you don't make it at all. To read out of the Bible what you want so you can potentially pursue a relationship with your photography assistant or whomever... You at least owe it to your wife to look at her and say that you don't want to be a part of the marriage because you're unhappy, as opposed to saying you're not happy and the Bible says you can go. Try to end it with the same dignity and respect you had for her when you started it. And I'd strongly suggest taking some time out to work on your own issues before jumping into another relationship because if are willing to leave a wife over not having sex as often as you like, you need to solve that issue before you jump into another relationship where it will happen again.

As for the advice that she should just have sex with you and fake enjoying it for your benefit, even if she doesn't... If you want a wife, if you want to prove you care about her and her needs, that's not going to work. Anytime you encourage somebody to lie, repeatedly, to your face so that you can get what you want, you take away a bit of their humanity. If you want the wife who renders the services of a call girl, who's available and eager on demand despite her feelings, and you could really care if she likes you or not... By all means. Try that approach. But a functional marriage doesn't demand sex devoid of happiness on a consistent basis. It's like a stain on couch. Flip the seats, it's still there.

 

[hosannah]

So you've been married for 8 years, addicted to porn for 7 and trying super, duper hard for 1 year to turn things around? On top of that, you converted your faith from passive Christian to devout (to the point of demanding exclusion of rated R movies and rap music), your wife is pregnant, and you're considering leaving somebody you otherwise like and love because you're unhappy with your sex life? Wow... On a number of levels.

First off, your change of heart? It's only been a year. You can't undo 7 years worth of damage overnight, and a year? That's not long. Even in your post, you said that your sex life died down "not to long" after you got married, which you said was a year. Though I'd like to point out, somewhere, the math doesn't add up... You've been married for "about" 8 years, your sex life waned 1 year in, you have been viewing porn habitually for 7 years, but you've been trying to fix it for 1 year... So either you were watching porn before your intimacy went down, or you were watching it while being the "model husband" who was working to meet her needs.... But regardless, if a year is "not too long" at the start of your marriage, then 1 year isn't too long at this point of your marriage, which means that a year's worth of change-of-heart isn't that much. You can't expect a complete 180 in a year, especially considering that she's been pregnant for most of it... Meaning that despite your meeting her emotional needs in all ways, her body is going through some dramatic changes that it'd be frankly unfair to hold against her a decreased libido. She's dealing with challenges of her own that frankly supersede your sex drive.

Secondly, you say you met her emotional needs by treating her well, not raising your voice in an argument, etc etc. But then you made threats to her that if she didn't put out, you were going elsewhere for sex. Now... Where does making that statement fall under "meeting her emotional needs?" Even if it was a one-time, idle demand, it shows that you've got a looooong way to go to meet her needs emotional needs on a consistent basis. Anytime you say you're going to do better, then you make a comment like this (or any other egregious slip-up), you might as well hit the reset button on all the work you did. Besides which, meeting her emotional needs goes beyond talking nicely to her and not yelling. It means you've talked to her about what she needs out of the relationship, and you've worked to give it to her.

Thirdly, you hold her to a far tighter standard then you hold yourself. You were emotionally absent for years, used porn for years, and she has a friend online and you almost leave her for it. You say her physical intimacy dropped off after "only" a year, but then you talk about the year you spent roughly meeting her needs as if it were an eternity. You fault her for using you to get pregnant, yet you take no accountability for the fact that you could have said no. Now she's pregnant and you kinda get how that impacts her desire for intimacy, but you still expect everything to be all fixed. You rely on porn to meet your sexual needs for 7 years as a justifiable action towards preventing an affair, but you hear she's viewing porn to meet her needs and you're hurt and offended. You admit to not being a great husband, but after a yearish of trying to fix it and you've not gotten results, you're looking for excuses and very weak justifications Biblically to call her physical lack of intimacy similar to her abandoning you, and therefore, a religiously justifiable reason to leave... Despite the fact that you did the same to her, only emotionally, but don't see it as a divorcable error... Just something that she should get over, because you've fixed it. You checked out for 7 years, which very likely contributed to her behavior, then you change your behavior with varying levels of success for a year, and you think that she should have also seen that change and changed herself on a dime without also giving her time to react and change to your behavior.

Fourthly, you've done all of this, then you've dramatically changed your faith and as a result, your lifestyle, with little-to-no regard for your wife, despite the fact that the change will impact her dramatically. I'm not saying you're right or wrong for that change, but if my husband came to me and said that he's now a devout Christian, that things like rap music and rated R movies were now "out" as part of fulfilling his need for appealing to God, it'd be a dramatic and difficult change for me to deal with. I'd like to say that I'd just accept it and try to meet his new faith, but honestly, I'm not sure how that would work. If he did that while I was pregnant? Forget it. And I am a Christian... I can only imagine how hard it'd be for somebody who's Atheist. She's probably now just hearing her needs are now not going to be met all over again, but the reasons will be that God takes all of your attention or prevents you from doing so because what she needs is against your beliefs to give her. However, that being said, I think your commitment is wavering, at best, considering who wants to follow a strict Christian lifestyle doesn't spend time trying to analyze if lack of sex constitutes abandonment and therefore spiritually justifies a divorce so you can remarry in an effort to get more sex from somebody else. What are you going to do when the sex drops off in that new marriage?

Fifthly, you say you want sex. She's giving you an increased amount of sex (from 6-8 times per year to 5 times in 4 months), but you're still upset because it looks like she's doing it out of obligation and not enjoyment. You haven't been asking for fulfilling sex, you've been asking for sex. You've made clear to your wife that you want sex. You're now getting it. If you want emotionally fulfilling sex, then you need to keep working on your marriage and state that instead of sex, you want her to feel like she wants to have that physical intimacy (not sex)... Then you need to be prepared for another sexual drought. But at this point? I don't blame the woman for being a tad confused on what to do. You're just a beacon of mixed messages.

If you want to love your wife regardless of what she does, then work on that. That means acting selflessly, really working to save your marriage and meet her needs, and taking your lumps as they're presented. That does not include telling her that if she doesn't have sex with you, you're going to have an affair, or pre-justifying an affair you haven't had with "well, she hasn't been having sex with me." And I have to say, not a lot of people are going to feel bad for a guy who's checked out of his 8 year marriage for 7 years, and kinda worked on it for 1, who's now complaining the only source of intimacy is his wife... That's kind of how marriages are supposed to be. And with all the mixed messages you've sent, the woman probably has no idea where to begin. I know I wouldn't if I were her.

What you need is counseling. And if she won't go with you, go without her. You have issues of your own that need to be resolved before you can even begin to make demands of her and tally up her failures. And do it before the baby comes, because after the baby arrives and now her time is divided between you and a newborn, your animosity will grow and she'll never have a chance to fix anything. From what it sounds like, you've made up your mind to leave, you just needed to find Biblical justification for it.

you so completely have so many facts from my story incorrect that I am struggling to understand if you actually read it, or only read a few words and got angry about a few issues and decided to rage about it.

I get that I did things wrong, I admitted all of those things, yet you're raging on me as if i took no responsibility, and you're shoveing all the responsibility on to me and next to none for her.

I am sure if you go back and carefully re read and don't hurry through it just to get a response going on, then you might better understand the timeline and how it might make sense.

 

[hosannah]

Granted.

I'm curious as to his motivations, though, and I know I'm opening a can of "which came first" worms in this...but what the heck.

To the OP -

During your seven years of porn indulgence - did you choose that because it was your preferred avenue? Or - did you choose it because you perceived any advances you'd make toward your wife would be rebuffed and it was a foregone conclusion that sex just wasn't on the table?

I made many advances and attempts, and many "smaller scale" efforts at putting the emotional connection in place. try it for a few weeks, and get absolutely nothing in return from her in regards to effort... hence, falling back into porn off and on. more on than off.

To all those angry women on this post yapping about how I have to give it 10 years of unselfish love to fix things and I'm a big jerk for not understanding or doing so.......

What is she doing during this 10 years. continuing the same trends of the past 7 years that I've often times tried to turn around, get denied a dozen times and go back to the porn... Sounds legitimate and fair. I think some women should not post if they have some bad, bad pasts of their own.

Anyone who read my original post would have gathered the following facts

i love my marriage.
i am committed to it
i love my wife
i took responsibility
i took actions
and am still continuing to do so

those of you that missed the whole "tempted to cheat" as being a parable, obviously didnt read much of what I said. I am not literally tempted to cheat. It was just a way of showing how frustrated I am with the situation and how close our marriage may be to falling apart.

To the angry lady who told me 1 year of amazing emotional connection isn't enough and she needs more time

hey, how about the flip side. what was she doing in any effort or recognizable action to meet my desires or needs? I felt just as rejected and resented and unloved as she did / does I am sure. But I was trying the whole time at least off and on getting rarely even a sign or hint of any commitment back in return. This just goes to prove that most women are absolutely disconnected from the needs of men, as men are to the needs of women.

love is a two way street

I by no means want my marriage to end, but I do not know that I can continue in this manner for an extended period of time longer. But the person who posted and said that no man is looking for an eternal roomate, is absolutely correct. No sex is not everything, but it is the secondary glue (jesus being the primary glue) that holds a marriage together. God made man with the absolute urge and desire to be physically intimate with his wife. Any woman that has never been in a man's body and had absolutely zero interaction either self stimulated or by their partner for months on end should really have no right to talk about anything regarding a man's physical needs in a marriage. I love my wife, but I have physical needs that God implanted into my deeper inner being, and I can not override the urges God made natural to me with my wife. The Apostle said "it is better to marry than to burn" I wonder what is better in a marriage where you're burning and have no other alternatives including now as a christian no longer having "M" or pornography as a self release.. it amounts to forced celibacy and in my opinion is cruel and actually amounts to mental and physical torture. You women do not know or understand what it is to be a man or have the urges and drives we have. We are biologically programmed to release and the longer we are unable to do so, the more chances sin becomes a reality.

Jesus made it clear that lustful thoughts are the same as physical adultery.

Let me tell the parable of the two men that went to hell:

Once upon a time there were two men on the planet called earth. the first man, was married for quite some time but eventually his marriage became unhappy. The man tried many things, but decided divorce was not an option so he resigned to live in mental and physical depression, indulging only his physical sensations with pornography. The man died one day, and went to hell for his continual sin in pornography that was unrepentant (you can't repent of sin that is continual)

During that same time on planet earth there resided another man. He also was married for quite some time. but eventually his marriage also became unhappy. He did everything he could try/think of it fix the situation, but ultimately gave up, resigning to himself that nothing was going to come of it. This man, walked away from his marriage, and remarried another woman who was the best partner this man ever had. they spent another happy 50 years together, loving each other, and caring for one anothers needs. One day that man died, and went to hell for his continual sin of adultery after having divorced his wife and remarried (we know thats biblical grounds for adultery unless the wife was first unfaithful)

the moral of the story: both men went to hell. but the second man didn't live his entire existence in hell. the first man did.

I realize this is an extreme, unrealistic example of a true Christian man, but i really hope it drives a point home. if things continue as they are, i do not know that i can go the rest of my life without physical intimacy or release. so if im consigned to hell for not being able to overcome this, does it not make sense to at least have happiness for a while?

Again, those are not my plans. I am just drawing an extreme example. but i hope it drives the point home.

I am not dodging my blame but anyone that expects me to take their posts reasonable should be answering on the scope that my wife should be trying something to be actively helping to fix the situation.

To the person who said I am just looking for a way out, I love you as a fellow servant of God but how oblivious are you to everything i said in the first 4 or 5 posts i made. seriously, get over your past.

 

[hosannah]

and i am just going to throw this out there but for the women thinking "wow how selfish just after sex..."

well "jeez.. how selfish, just out to fulfil your own emotional needs..." could be said as well..

I would be interested to see how many men would agree with me when i say the following statement true or false: I feel especially close and more in love with my wife after having just had intimate relations.

answer: true

men's brains release chemicals that make bonding 10x easier and more possible than other times of the day right after physical intimacy, and it's probably the same chemicals women release when their husbands surprise them with something thoughtful after a hard days work.

why do you think your men are more apt to cuddle and be sweet after physical intimacy. oh, you thought he just liked to cuddle? lol! (im not saying men don't like to cuddle, but i am saying physically speaking it does not drive us anywhere near the same degree as it does women)

 

[LinkH]

hossanah,

I can empathize with you, and I do believe you have a real, legitimate concern. It does sound like your wife has short-changed you.

Btw, if you feel a bit attacked in this forum, it's par for the course. There is a married man's forum, and actually if topics get too sexual, they should go there, and my guess is the mods will move this thread there. Maybe you can see it at the top of the married couples forum.

All that being said, I think you are letting your thoughts go into the wrong direction here and you need to bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. It does sound like, from what you say, that your wife has been depriving you sexually and that you are in a near-sexless marriage. 6 times a year isn't normal unless your old or handicapped or both of you are really low drive, imo. That is a serious problem.

But if a wife isn't doing her part in the marriage, does that mean you are not supposed to do your part? Does that exempt you from treating your wife like Christ, who loved the church and gave Himself for her? They beat Christ and He bled, and then he had nails pierced through his hands and feet for the church--after all the persecution He went through during His ministry before that. You've given up a regular sex life. Whose suffering was worse? Whose was more unjust? I'm just saying you've got to get rid of this divorce thinking you are tolerating.

What makes it worse is your wife is present. Kids from divorced parents statistically score lower on all kinds of metrics in life according to the research, or so I hear. Aside from the sex, it sounds like you have a relatively happy marriage.

You've got to cut your wife some slack while she's pregnant. Make yourself sexually available so she doesn't have to hint to you that she wants sex if she does experience a spike in a sex drive. She may think initiating is just 'no her' and not do it. So you can just let her know you are 'there for her' every night and express some interest, in case her libido is higher and she doesn't know how to express it. But sometimes the libido goes down during pregnancy, especially with upset stomachs, back pain, and all the stuff your wife is going through to bring your baby into the world. There are more important things going on than just getting your sex life fixed. She's having your baby, and that's a really big thing in your life.

Does it sound Christ-like to leave your wife after she has your baby? Would you want to stress her with divorce talk while she is pregnant? It can be tough for women during pregnancy. The time right after it can be even more stressful, both with hormones coursing through her body and with the lack of sleep and stresses of caring for a new born.

You might want to open a thread on the men's forum. It's kind of a dead forum most of the time, but maybe some of the guys might want to talk. There are also other men's forums on the Internet that are a little more lively and have more active posters.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

you so completely have so many facts from my story incorrect that I am struggling to understand if you actually read it, or only read a few words and got angry about a few issues and decided to rage about it.

Don't take this the wrong way but why would I have a reason to "rage out" about your situation? I'm not involved, nor invested in the outcome of your marriage... There's nothing for me to get angry about if you succeed or fail in your marriage. To be perfectly frank, I couldn't care less. But you asked for opinions, so...

I get that I did things wrong, I admitted all of those things, yet you're raging on me as if i took no responsibility, and you're shoveing all the responsibility on to me and next to none for her.

Again, not raging on you. Not sure where you arrive at that conclusion... Unlike other posters, I didn't judge you for using porn, I didn't tell you not to leave your wife, berate you for getting her pregnant, or for planning to divorce her while she's pregnant. None of it is my business and I can see why you believe as you do. But actions have consequences, and I don't see how highlighting the consequences of your actions is "hateful."

As for categorizing her faults... Number 1, you did that perfectly well on your own. You were very quick to point out all that she's done wrong that hasn't fixed while you listed off all you have done wrong but, according to you, have fixed. So you don't need me to highlight what's wrong with her, you've done it just fine on your own. Number 2... She's not here... You are. She hasn't shared her side, her perspective, and seeing as she's not here... What good is giving advice to her going to do? She's not going to read it, and any argument that you get into with her that starts with "I ran our situation by some folks online and they said you needed to x,y,z..." will get you nowhere faster then bicycle with no wheels. Number 3, it's your marriage so, yes, you need to be responsible for your actions and how they impact her and the marriage. We can't operate as we will and then put all the fault on our spouses when they don't do what you think they should.

I am sure if you go back and carefully re read and don't hurry through it just to get a response going on, then you might better understand the timeline and how it might make sense.

I'm not an idiot, I know how to read. You just don't like what you heard in response. I hope you don't adopt this kind of condescending attitude with her when you're trying to resolve your issues... You need to get some negative feedback about your behavior if you ever hope to change things. You both got you to where you are today, not just her because she doesn't have sex with you as often as you'd like.

 

[hosannah]

As for categorizing her faults... Number 1, you did that perfectly well on your own. You were very quick to point out all that she's done wrong that hasn't fixed while you listed off all you have done wrong but, according to you, have fixed. So you don't need me to highlight what's wrong with her, you've done it just fine on your own.

interesting. I think i did a pretty open honest self evaluation by admitting most if not all of my faults, but you categorized all of my faults and even imagined some up that don't exist.

again, one sided thinking. of course you don't have to categorize my wifes thoughts.. she's.. a woman as well. It's all about the bad selfish men right?

I'm not an idiot, I know how to read. You just don't like what you heard in response. I hope you don't adopt this kind of condescending attitude with her when you're trying to resolve your issues... You need to get some negative feedback about your behavior if you ever hope to change things. You both got you to where you are today, not just her because she doesn't have sex with you as often as you'd like.

interesting again. i did not call you an idiot nor did i take a condescending attitude. your math added up incorrectly. i was only stating one of two possibilities since it did not add up properly, and you basically either tried to call my bluff as a liar, or say that i said something incorrectly. I certainly hope you don't take up this kind of an attitude with your husband, turning everything around that he says and twisting all of his words against him.

if you are going to call me a liar, or insinuate lying through improper mathematics that don't add up, whether or not the label of liar was implied or not, i do have a right to point you in the right direction and confront you with what i believe your sin was against me (falsley accusing me in a very indirect manner)

I don't have 2 or 3 witnesses to go to your place in private, so the church forum will have to do.

 

[LinkH]

I wonder what is better in a marriage where you're burning and have no other alternatives including now as a christian no longer having "M" or pornography as a self release.. it amounts to forced celibacy and in my opinion is cruel and actually amounts to mental and physical torture. You women do not know or understand what it is to be a man or have the urges and drives we have.

If it's any consolution, testosterone goes down gradually over the years, and so does the physical 'torture' during periods of lack of activity. I do feel for you. I remember being 30, which was easier (especially since I was married) than 19.

As far as masturbation goes, you'll get a variety of opinions. IMO, the Bible doesn't specifically forbid it or address it. You do have to keep a clean conscience before God. You also aren't supposed to look at a woman to lust after her.

We are biologically programmed to release and the longer we are unable to do so, the more chances sin becomes a reality.

Plenty of people live celibate and don't do anything to 'release' and survive.

What if i stay committed for months longer but finally can no longer bear it and go back to porn? It's the same thing as adultery and is the exact same sin so if i ever got depressed enough to fall back in to Porn, I do not understand the idea of "better to watch porn than break up a marriage" (pretending no children are involved) is that the truth? Pornography is continual adultery. divorce and remarriage to another woman is continual adultery, Jesus made clear both sins are the same thing in thought or deed. Therefore, if a man had resigned (not saying i am) to go back and live in sin would it not make sense for him to at least do so finding another mate of equal desire and living a happy sinful life. At least when that man goes to hell, he lived the best earth life possible, and didn't live the most mentally anguished life possible only to fail time after time in the pornography and be continually unhappy in every other aspect but physical release. Moving from a physical hell to a spiritual hell doesn't seem to make much sense. Although I guess the transition might be 1 milllionth of a fraction easier (a little sarcasm/humor)

Don't let the devil play with your mind. Or maybe it's your own flesh. I don't think all sins are equal. The thing is, there can be two sins that aren't equal, but both can be damning. Some servants get beaten with more stripes in the parable, so I suspect Hell won't be equal for everyone either.

Be that as it may, if you look at a woman to lust after her, then sleep with her, you've committed two sins instead of just one. If you'd committed adultery with her in your heart, that's one, then doing it with your body is two. So isn't that twice as bad?

Then if you dump your wife, you cans in a multitude of ways by the way you hurt her, and may hinder God's work in her heart that he could have done through your good witness if you'd had one. And you'd be sinning by not providing the in-house fatherly support you could have to your child. Remember that it is written that he that will not provide for his own has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel. I'm not sure if that applies exactly if you make a choice that you know will end up with you seeing your kid every weekend when you could have stayed with that person in house.

Then, if you consider the second marriage to be adulterous, then you are sinning by causing another woman to stumble in adultery (at least in your own estimation) continually by being with you.

Then you may be conflicted if you want to get right with God. Do you divorce because this marriage wasn't right? Does God forgive you for the divorce and want you to stay with your second wife? Or to get right with God, do you need to leave your wife, and oops, those two kids you conceived with her while you were having all that sex. Oh yeah, all that sex you had for a year and a half before she decided she didn't like sex that much.

So there you are, divorced, with a messed up life, with regrets, wishing you hadn't sinned so much.

Looking at the porn to lust after women is committing adultery in your heart. Don't do that. That is a deadly sin. But it sure is a lot easier to disentangle yourself from than the other scenario you are proposing, and it probably hurts fewer people. Of course you know if you buy or even view porn, you may be perpetuating the industry which dupes poor street teenage girls into become filmed prostitutes, gets them hooked on drugs, subjects them to a lot of pain. That's a pretty messy sin as far as its effects on others goes, but probably a little messier than wrecking your wife's, your child's, and possibly some other woman you haven't chosen yet's life with a divorce or two.

Stay where you are, love your wife, and keep praying for her. You can keep working with her toward a healthy sex life, too. If you are suffering because she is depriving you, at least I Peter 2 shows that unjust suffering is commendable before God.

 

[hosannah]

I'm not an idiot, I know how to read. You just don't like what you heard in response. I hope you don't adopt this kind of condescending attitude with her when you're trying to resolve your issues... You need to get some negative feedback about your behavior if you ever hope to change things. You both got you to where you are today, not just her because she doesn't have sex with you as often as you'd like.

interesting again. had you read the post i put, you would have gathered that i only started neglecting and turning to porn when i felt heavily rejected by my wifes lack of interest and response in me , at a point in time when i was being very good to her.

so, if we aren't here just because she doesn't have sex with me that often, why are we here again? most normal men do not turn to pornography when they are being satisfied even on a once or twice a week basis which according to most psychologists, is considered a low intimacy rate.

I think a lot of you are missing, that i do love my wife and i turn to Jesus nightly in prayers to ask him to help heal things.

 

[hosannah]

anyhow.. i think i am done monitoring this thread. thanks for the feedback, it was less constructive and more antagonistic than i had hoped for : (

 

[If Not For Grace]

That's the way most people feel when they go looking for validation rather than advice or the truth.

 

[ValleyGal]

I don't think anyone is questioning your love for your wife. I think what the women here are seeing is likely typical of what your wife might see.

Personally, I volunteer with people who go through a discipleship program that helps people uncover their unhealthy coping mechanisms, and weeks later, their defects of character. I also have years behind me in human sciences (human services, psychology, social work, etc), so sometimes it does not take much for me to see dynamics that a lot of others might not see - especially the person who is doing them. So I am asking you to hear me out.

While I understand that you are frustrated by your situation, there are certain things I see that you might want to address, and I know things like this take much time to become aware of and deal with. The first thing I could see is that you do take partial responsibility, but you are still blaming her. I mentioned this in another post earlier here - you easily admit you turned to porn and acknowledged that was wrong. But then you try to justify it by saying you would not have had to if your wife was meeting all your needs. So you are not taking full responsibility, you are still justifying doing it.

The next thing I could see is that you are willing to acknowledge and work on your stuff, but then you deflect and say "I'll do my work as long as she does her work." It doesn't work like that. You can't change her, and you can't expect her to change. She doesn't seem to have a problem with what she's doing. You do. It's your problem, so you have to be 100% responsible for how you will respond to what she does or does not do. What if she never changes? She is responsible to herself and for herself (not being a Christian, she has no worldly obligation to you unless she wants to). You, however, now have an obligation to God for loving her. It is up to you to change yourself, whether she changes or not, and this is out of obedience to and reverence for the Lord Jesus.

The next thing I see became more evident tonight: defensiveness. You appeared to react defensively to the thoughts other people have here - unless it's thoughts you want to hear. But people here are not here to tell your ears what they want to hear. They are here to tell you their thoughts based on the information you provided for them, knowing that we are only hearing half the situation. Your bolding and underlining, and calling someone "angry" tells me that you have yourself responded in anger (a form of defense). This basically means you are not open to hearing other's thoughts or opinions, except the ones that stroke your "rightness".

If this is indicative of how you respond to your wife, I am not surprised at her response to you - especially because she is not a Christian. She is reacting out of her sinful nature, not out of desire for obedience to God. This will be very hard on your marriage as time goes on - being obedient to God and being soft to God, open to his teaching and transforming your heart and mind, and living with someone who remains in the sinful nature. It can work, but it will be hard. But you will not win her over by being defensive, or by expecting her to change, or by deflecting or justifying, blaming, etc.

You are in a tough situation, but you can do something about it. Self control is a fruit of the Spirit - and don't tell me I don't understand a man's sexual needs. Some women have very strong sex drive. Here's the thing. Motivated by love for God, we want to honour him with our body, meaning we need to take control of our physiological responses. Sex is not a "need". We do not need it to survive. We need oxygen and water and food, but we do not need sex. The remedy God has provided for this is nocturnal [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], not masturbation or adultery or begging the wife for more on an ongoing basis.

Sex is not the glue that holds marriage together. Study after study says the most important factor for making marriage work is to be each other's best friend. There are a lot of factors that contribute to bonding. Yes, sex is part of that, but only one part. There are other more significant factors. What if you were in an accident that rendered you unable to perform? Are you saying you would not continue to bond because there would be no sex? Of course not. It only seems like a bigger part than it is because you are not getting as much as you want.

Rather than let your mind wander to divorce, adultery, or what SHE needs to do to make it work, maybe re-train your mind to only focus on what YOU need to do - and think about what, as a believer, now motivates you. It should be the love of Jesus that motivates you to take your thoughts captive, to grow in self control, and to sacrificially love your wife without expecting anything, any change at all from her.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I made many advances and attempts, and many "smaller scale" efforts at putting the emotional connection in place. try it for a few weeks, and get absolutely nothing in return from her in regards to effort... hence, falling back into porn off and on. more on than off.

This contradicts your earlier statements about not engaging in the behavior. And it's counter-productive to both recovering from an addiction and the overall mission of trying to restore intimacy with your wife by removing what you used as a crutch, which became a barrier.

To all those angry women on this post yapping about how I have to give it 10 years of unselfish love to fix things and I'm a big jerk for not understanding or doing so.......

Wow... Really? Could you be any more demeaning? You solicited advice, you got it... People see fault in your actions still. So why not examine that and see if that has the positive impacts you state your holding out for as opposed to calling the women on this forum names?

And, I have a news flash, you don't have 10 years to give unselfish love to her. You have as long as your in the marriage. Marriage is a work-in-progress, you don't just do your dues and then you're done. This is the structure of what should be the Christ-centered marriage you say you want... Regardless of if she reciprocates or not.

What is she doing during this 10 years. continuing the same trends of the past 7 years that I've often times tried to turn around, get denied a dozen times and go back to the porn... Sounds legitimate and fair. I think some women should not post if they have some bad, bad pasts of their own.

It's not about legitimate and fair. It's about either accepting who you are together in the marriage or not, working to fix the problems or not. I'm sorry, I don't see a half-hearted attempt at fixing things over the last year as an appropriate band-aid for 7 years of detachment. And neither do most of the women here, apparently. If it were me and I was making a similar gripe about my marriage and all the men here were telling me that 1 year wouldn't be enough time to fix that problem and that my demands, I'd maybe examine that.

After all, she's a wife, we're wives, maybe we have the same mindset on the issue?

And women with bad pasts need not reply? Why? Because this situation is a great one, so people with a bad past can't relate to this? You'd think that you'd want people who'd been in this or similar situations to reply...

Maybe you should just save yourself time and post this in the men's forum with the disclaimer that you only wanted to hear people sympathize with you and trash your wife, where you have the added bonus of not having to deal with "yappy women."

Anyone who read my original post would have gathered the following facts

i love my marriage.
i am committed to it
i love my wife
i took responsibility
i took actions
and am still continuing to do so

Despite accusations to the contrary, I did read your post, and the posts after that. I saw you stated these to be facts, but your behavior doesn't support that as your belief or your lasting conduct. People who love and are committed to their marriage don't tell their wife that if they don't increase the frequency of sex, they'll leave the marriage. People who are in love with their wife unconditionally don't lash out at people for not judging her behavior harshly. They don't talk about telling her after she's given birth and has plenty else on her plate that if she doesn't start having sex more regularly, they're leaving. People who take responsibility don't lash out when people point out there's still more to be accountable for. People who take responsibility for actions and addictions don't continue to engage in them, using the failures of others as justification for their personal failures and trials.

If my husband said or did any of the above, then told me he was committed to me and the marriage, I'd call him a liar and figure him to be all but literally out the door. Words are great, but when actions say something else entirely, what you say means really little. Especially while in the midst of what you say is exceptional attentiveness to her emotional needs (which none of the above is, by the way).

those of you that missed the whole "tempted to cheat" as being a parable, obviously didnt read much of what I said. I am not literally tempted to cheat. It was just a way of showing how frustrated I am with the situation and how close our marriage may be to falling apart.

That contradicts what you said earlier. You specifically said her behavior may lead you to adulterous acts. You also talked about your co-worker in an intimate way that would cause most wives on here to get upset. In fact, we had a whole discussion on the matter like a week ago. You specifically stated the temptation was there. So when you say that, it's no longer a parable, it's an actual. This all loops back to your need to be accountable for what you're bringing to the marriage and the situation.

To the angry lady who told me 1 year of amazing emotional connection isn't enough and she needs more time

I guess this is me? Kind of confusing since I'm certainly not angry about it and people generally refer to me by a name, as opposed to just a random adjective and my gender.

In all seriousness... You act like a guy who has issues with women... Has this been brought up to you before?

hey, how about the flip side. what was she doing in any effort or recognizable action to meet my desires or needs? I felt just as rejected and resented and unloved as she did / does I am sure. But I was trying the whole time at least off and on getting rarely even a sign or hint of any commitment back in return. This just goes to prove that most women are absolutely disconnected from the needs of men, as men are to the needs of women.love is a two way street

And what about the times she put effort in to meet your needs and desires, and you turned her down, ignored it, or went and did your own thing? The times she communicated a need and you ignored her? I'm guessing you both have been at opposite ends of the pond for awhile.

And I get it. Ok, so you tried, moderately. For a year. To be successful with her, and your marriage in general, you just keep plucking away at it. Sometimes it won't be reciprocated, sometimes it will. If you love her and want that selfless marriage, that's what you do. Love is a two-way street, like you said. Sometimes, somebody's needs aren't going to be 100% met. And your marriage is in a rebuilding phase, where you're trying to rebuild her trust. So that means you'll be on the short end of the stick awhile. You can either accept that and keep working to fix it, or just get out. The damage didn't happen overnight, it sure isn't going to be fixed overnight. Time to earn back her trust and see if she reciprocates, or is willing to do so after you've demonstrated a real change for a prolonged period.

I by no means want my marriage to end, but I do not know that I can continue in this manner for an extended period of time longer.

You say you don't want it to end, but statements like this and others you've made make it sound like your bags are by the door and you're ready to go.

But the person who posted and said that no man is looking for an eternal roomate, is absolutely correct.

Neither is a woman. And a woman with an emotionally vacant husband has just that... A roommate. Though you don't see or acknowledge that. And it's hard to flick that switch back from wife of absent husband to now husband who has a multitude of demands and criticisms for not meeting his needs.

No sex is not everything, but it is the secondary glue (jesus being the primary glue) that holds a marriage together.

The first glue is God and the second is sex?

Get thee to counseling. Your ideas of marriage need adjustment. No woman wants to hear that the first link in marriage is Jesus, the second is sex. How about love? Respect? Both of those supersede sex.

God made man with the absolute urge and desire to be physically intimate with his wife. Any woman that has never been in a man's body and had absolutely zero interaction either self stimulated or by their partner for months on end should really have no right to talk about anything regarding a man's physical needs in a marriage.

So wait, now women, women with bad pasts, yapping women, and women who're not having regular sex need not respond? How can you assume, based off of what these posts have been, what the sex lives of the women who're responding to you are?

I love my wife, but I have physical needs that God implanted into my deeper inner being, and I can not override the urges God made natural to me with my wife. The Apostle said "it is better to marry than to burn" I wonder what is better in a marriage where you're burning and have no other alternatives including now as a christian no longer having "M" or pornography as a self release.. it amounts to forced celibacy and in my opinion is cruel and actually amounts to mental and physical torture. You women do not know or understand what it is to be a man or have the urges and drives we have. We are biologically programmed to release and the longer we are unable to do so, the more chances sin becomes a reality.

It sounds like your physical needs trump that of your marriage, your wife, your relationship, her needs... And you're using the Bible to justify all of it. Your wife having sex with you once every couple of weeks, which is not forced celibacy by the way, is hardly cruel, mental, or physical torture. And by the flip side, I could say that you don't understand what it is to be a woman and a wife with needs of her own. And I don't buy the "I need to have sex with something" argument. Plenty of people manage to stay in loving and committed relationships where sex doesn't occur due to separation, illness, pregnancy (hey, isn't your wife pregnant?), or a variety of other reasons. If something happened where, tomorrow, I couldn't have sex, I know for a fact my husband would still be there and could control his urges, and vice versa. Having gone through forced periods of seperation, we experienced mutual misery, but at no time were we so consumed by this biological need to have sex that we wandered to get the needs filled elsewhere. That was never even on the radar.

Jesus made it clear that lustful thoughts are the same as physical adultery.

So then you've been adulterous for 7 years, continue to act in a adulterous manner, so you can't say that you're meeting your wife's emotional needs. Anybody who truly believes the above can't be viewing porn, and believing it's not adultery, or that he's meeting his wife's emotional needs.

Let me tell the parable of the two men that went to hell: (edited for space and lack of relevance)

The parable, first off, isn't Biblical, for about a billion reasons. The story isn't Biblical. The actions of God are conjecture. The principle of abandoning duty for earthly pleasure on the premise that you're going to hell anyway so you might as well be happy in life isn't a lesson anywhere in the Bible. It doesn't take into account the facts of the situation here. It's not even really a parable.

Secondly, you're trying to justify why you can get a divorce and it's OK. If you want to get a divorce, then fine. Do so. But the problems will present again down the road. What will you do then? When you divorce on the premise that the grass is greener and there's somebody out there just dying to make you happy, then you find that all marriages take work and all marriages have dry spells, all marriages have ups and downs when it comes to sex... What will you do?

I realize this is an extreme, unrealistic example of a true Christian man, but i really hope it drives a point home. if things continue as they are, i do not know that i can go the rest of my life without physical intimacy or release. so if im consigned to hell for not being able to overcome this, does it not make sense to at least have happiness for a while?

Again, those are not my plans. I am just drawing an extreme example. but i hope it drives the point home.

It drives home a point, but I suspect not the one that you want. It highlights to me that your faith is an unsteady one, that you need spiritual guidance. It highlights that while you say one thing, your actions and plans betray another. It drives home that you are very confused about a lot of things I bet you don't even know you're confused about. It makes me think that the marriage will end, sooner rather then later, probably after the baby is born and more sacrifices have to be made that you're obviously not willing to make. It makes me see that you both, you and her, are probably unhappy and I'm not seeing where anybody really wants to work on it in a selfless manner.

Just... Just go to counseling. With her or without her.

I am not dodging my blame but anyone that expects me to take their posts reasonable should be answering on the scope that my wife should be trying something to be actively helping to fix the situation.

She is doing something. She's trying to figure you out. She's trying to see what kind of changes are being made, how they fit in your marital life. You said she's changing emotionally for you and making herself more available in ways she wasn't before... All of those are steps to restoring a marriage. The issue is the "something" you're looking for is sex. But to turn your wife on to you and your changes takes more then a cuddle and a sympathetic ear, and it takes time.

To the person who said I am just looking for a way out, I love you as a fellow servant of God but how oblivious are you to everything i said in the first 4 or 5 posts i made. seriously, get over your past.

Uncalled for rudeness. How do you know what my past is? Or my present, for that matter? That is, if you're referring to me... Who knows since so many people said it and you're not even extending to your fellow posters the dignity of addressing them as they did you.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

and i am just going to throw this out there but for the women thinking "wow how selfish just after sex..."

well "jeez.. how selfish, just out to fulfil your own emotional needs..." could be said as well..

I suppose your wife is under the mistaken idea that her emotional needs are being filled as a genuine expression of love and attentiveness, not a precursor to sex. And most women would tell you that they're not going to have sex with anybody who doesn't meet their emotional needs for a prolonged period. Not that she's not having sex with you, by the way, she's just not having it as often as you'd like. No account for the pregnancy either.

I would be interested to see how many men would agree with me when i say the following statement true or false: I feel especially close and more in love with my wife after having just had intimate relations.

answer: true

And let's ask the women if they'd be inclined to have sex with somebody they weren't emotionally connected to... You want to have sex to feel close (though you just went through a long talk about how it's a physical need in order to maintain comfort), she needs to feel close to have sex. And I'm sorry, I get why she doesn't feel close.

men's brains release chemicals that make bonding 10x easier and more possible than other times of the day right after physical intimacy, and it's probably the same chemicals women release when their husbands surprise them with something thoughtful after a hard days work.

why do you think your men are more apt to cuddle and be sweet after physical intimacy. oh, you thought he just liked to cuddle? lol! (im not saying men don't like to cuddle, but i am saying physically speaking it does not drive us anywhere near the same degree as it does women)

[/quote]

The stereotypes, the psudeo-science, and the disconnect with women and their needs/emotions in this one statement makes my brain hurt. Quite literally. But then it made me laugh. I like the idea of women having a reaction similar to an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] because their spouse deigned to bring some a little treat for them or otherwise say or do something nice.

 

[Mrs. Luther073082]

hossanah,

I can empathize with you, and I do believe you have a real, legitimate concern. It does sound like your wife has short-changed you.

Btw, if you feel a bit attacked in this forum, it's par for the course. There is a married man's forum, and actually if topics get too sexual, they should go there, and my guess is the mods will move this thread there. Maybe you can see it at the top of the married couples forum.

All that being said, I think you are letting your thoughts go into the wrong direction here and you need to bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. It does sound like, from what you say, that your wife has been depriving you sexually and that you are in a near-sexless marriage. 6 times a year isn't normal unless your old or handicapped or both of you are really low drive, imo. That is a serious problem.

But if a wife isn't doing her part in the marriage, does that mean you are not supposed to do your part? Does that exempt you from treating your wife like Christ, who loved the church and gave Himself for her? They beat Christ and He bled, and then he had nails pierced through his hands and feet for the church--after all the persecution He went through during His ministry before that. You've given up a regular sex life. Whose suffering was worse? Whose was more unjust? I'm just saying you've got to get rid of this divorce thinking you are tolerating.

What makes it worse is your wife is present. Kids from divorced parents statistically score lower on all kinds of metrics in life according to the research, or so I hear. Aside from the sex, it sounds like you have a relatively happy marriage.

You've got to cut your wife some slack while she's pregnant. Make yourself sexually available so she doesn't have to hint to you that she wants sex if she does experience a spike in a sex drive. She may think initiating is just 'no her' and not do it. So you can just let her know you are 'there for her' every night and express some interest, in case her libido is higher and she doesn't know how to express it. But sometimes the libido goes down during pregnancy, especially with upset stomachs, back pain, and all the stuff your wife is going through to bring your baby into the world. There are more important things going on than just getting your sex life fixed. She's having your baby, and that's a really big thing in your life.

Does it sound Christ-like to leave your wife after she has your baby? Would you want to stress her with divorce talk while she is pregnant? It can be tough for women during pregnancy. The time right after it can be even more stressful, both with hormones coursing through her body and with the lack of sleep and stresses of caring for a new born.

You might want to open a thread on the men's forum. It's kind of a dead forum most of the time, but maybe some of the guys might want to talk. There are also other men's forums on the Internet that are a little more lively and have more active posters.

This post is worth quoting.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

interesting. I think i did a pretty open honest self evaluation by admitting most if not all of my faults, but you categorized all of my faults and even imagined some up that don't exist.

Well, I disagree. I can see your wife's hesitation and understand it. I'm sorry you didn't want to evaluate it.

again, one sided thinking. of course you don't have to categorize my wifes thoughts.. she's.. a woman as well. It's all about the bad selfish men right?

I answered why I wasn't "categorizing" your wife's thoughts or presenting to her solutions to fix making you happy. Kind of clearly. In several parts, actually.

Surprisingly, an ingrained personal hatred of men wasn't one of the reasons. An amusing theory, though I don't know where you got that one. Probably right along with how the women were yapping at you, I have a bad history to overcome, and am sexually unavailable to my husband. All marvelous assumptions that, well, I know I wasn't expecting.

interesting again. i did not call you an idiot nor did i take a condescending attitude. your math added up incorrectly. i was only stating one of two possibilities since it did not add up properly, and you basically either tried to call my bluff as a liar, or say that i said something incorrectly. I certainly hope you don't take up this kind of an attitude with your husband, turning everything around that he says and twisting all of his words against him.

If my husband were say to me, after I've replied to a concern of his and he's solicited advice, that I must not be listening, then makes comments about how I'm "yapping" at him... Well, my first thought would be that he took some sort of traumatic blow to the head and would need to go to the hospital to get checked out, since he'd never dream of talking to me like that. Then, after we ruled out brain injury, you'd better believe that I'd speak to him like I spoke to you in response.

He doesn't have to agree with everything I say, but he does need to be at least respectful about his disagreement. And if some sort of lapse of sanity existed where he didn't, then oh yeah, I'd say something.

if you are going to call me a liar, or insinuate lying through improper mathematics that don't add up, whether or not the label of liar was implied or not, i do have a right to point you in the right direction and confront you with what i believe your sin was against me (falsley accusing me in a very indirect manner)

So if I'm going to call you a liar (which I didn't), even if I didn't call you one or imply that you were, you have a right to be rude and demeaning to me, and the other ladies here, because we've "sinned" against you? But it's not rude and demeaning to say what you've said to me and the others because we may or may not have lied about you, though even if we didn't say or imply it, you're still wronged? LoL!

Seriously, go to counseling for your marital issues. Pursue spiritual guidance for the Biblical issues you're having.

I don't have 2 or 3 witnesses to go to your place in private, so the church forum will have to do.

Well, I await my punishment for my alleged man-hating, bitter woman, sexually unavailable ways. The only allegation missing was that I must be having my period.

The irony being, of course, is that my past is almost exactly as yours was and, of everybody here, I'm probably the one who can relate to your situation and your response to it the most. Yet you've pegged me the exact opposite of what I am because I disagree with you. While your portrait of me is a great one, it's really not even slightly accurate. Not that you'd know, since you didn't bother to ask, though thought you knew it.

interesting again. had you read the post i put, you would have gathered that i only started neglecting and turning to porn when i felt heavily rejected by my wifes lack of interest and response in me , at a point in time when i was being very good to her.

I actually did see that, and replied to that.

so, if we aren't here just because she doesn't have sex with me that often, why are we here again? most normal men do not turn to pornography when they are being satisfied even on a once or twice a week basis which according to most psychologists, is considered a low intimacy rate.

I'm here because I chat here and you put up a thread asking for advice. You're here because your not having sex at the frequency you'd like and want advice. You're not having sex at the frequency you'd like due to an emotional disconnect that you both contributed to, you through checking out and using other things to pacify your sexual needs and because you'd rather do that then discuss it with your wife and be rejected, and her because of her response to your checking out.

Men view pornography for various reasons, even men who are having their sexual needs met. Especially if it's an addiction. Men who want to be in a healthy marriage don't turn to porn because they aren't having it as much as they'd like with their wives.

And I'd love... Love, love, love... To see the psychologist who says that sex twice a week is "low intimacy" that could drive a man to any of the things you've claimed here, porn, affairs, divorce... I can't tell you how much I'd love to hear from that guy.

I think a lot of you are missing, that i do love my wife and i turn to Jesus nightly in prayers to ask him to help heal things.

Praying is great, but you still need to work to help yourself. Don't pray for plentiful food and then wonder why, because you never go grocery shopping, you're always starving.

 

[Avniel]

I really wish new posters would read my threads before posting here. The likelihood of obtaining advice or counsel that is worth anything is slim to none. Most people are bias due to outside environmental stimuli, I would never advise anyone to come here looking for anything more then a conversation, argument and or debate.

To the op all I can say is pray and seek counsel of those that love you. If you don't have anyone or are to embarrassed go to the church and talk to a pastor. If you don't have a church call one up, don't engage people that have no purpose to help you. All that this is, is displaced anger and these people aren't helping you nor do they want to.

This isn't directed towards a single poster I only read a handful of comments and if you feel like its you then.......look in the mirror��

 

[ValleyGal]

Avniel, the same could be said about the OP. He has displaced his anger as well, taking it out on well-meaning posters here rather than on his own behaviour over the last years - except the last one, in which he has stated he is making an effort. Seriously, I read a lot of anger as displayed by the underlining and bolded areas in his posts. That is defensiveness, indicating he is not open to opinions here other than those which support his own agenda.

 

[LinkH]

But then it made me laugh. I like the idea of women having a reaction similar to an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] because their spouse deigned to bring some a little treat for them or otherwise say or do something nice.

What about a chocolate treat?

 

[DZoolander]

I can't help but think of the movie Fight Club when reading about this kind of stuff... There's a quote that goes something along the lines of...

"On a long enough time line, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero."

I suppose it could be adapted to say...

"On a long enough time line, the odds of someone going without what they truly desire drops to zero."

I think that's an important thing to keep in mind when dealing with anyone, especially in intimate relationships. Despite all the talk about what people ought to do, what standards they ought to uphold, how people ought to be different, how people ought to be more like Christ/the Church, etc...people are simply people...and it's important to keep that in mind.

Like in that other discussion we're having on the board right now...I contend that having an empowered wife is very important to me - because it serves as an important check/balance in my life. Knowing that she COULD leave at any point makes the fact that she remains meaningful - and is a testament to the fact I'm doing a good job. If that check wasn't there - and say if I had a more "kept woman" - I would have real trust issues with her. If I believed she was trapped - then it's not a huge leap to think she believed she was trapped - which puts a huge nasty spin on everything.

Why? Because I believe human nature, despite well meaning intentions, over a long enough timeline trumps all.

If I were to ignore my wife's need for companionship and intimacy, I have every belief that she *would* eventually find it elsewhere. It might be a week, it might be a month, it might be a year...who knows? The fact that it would happen is not up for debate. The only variable is how long and when.

Most likely it would also be a progression. She would fight inner "demons" of whether it was right or wrong at the start. She would tinker around with the idea. She would explore light friendships at the start, but eventually move into emotional affairs, leading to eventual dissolution of the marriage. Everything is a progression. Everything has a cause, and everything has an effect, and everything is imminently predictable over the long haul.

Same thing goes with this type of situation. The guy is what? 30 years old? Seven years ago he was what? 23 years old? Forgive me if this comes as no more of a surprise to me than what I say I would expect of my wife (or any other woman) if I just flat out ignored her needs.

23 year old guy starts experiencing spousal refusal - he's gonna start masturbating. That's simply the fact of the matter. The only question is how long it's going to take him to start - which is purely a function of how much he believes masturbation offends God. If he doesn't believe it offends God - he'll be [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] it the moment after refusal happens. If he does believe it offends God, there might be a lull of a few weeks/months. Regardless - over a long enough timeframe - it's gonna happen.

Then the next question becomes - what's his sensory cue going to be when he does it? Is he going to try and abstain from any thoughts (not likely)? Or - is he going to go down the path of least resistance (porn)? Most likely - if I had to bet the farm on it - I'd venture to say at some point porn is going to come into the picture - and I don't care who's involved. Maybe there's an aberration here or there - but it's always safest to bet on the mean.

Just as the wife would be filled with all sorts of inner-demons about the path she felt forced into taking, the man would also be filled with equal inner-demons, meaning he would start slowly but then grow increasingly more "bold" in it (meaning basically - throwing caution to the wind).

Eventually, for the woman or the man, the net result is the same... alienation... crappy stuff they've done due to an unwillingness/inability to communicate... and dissolution. Maybe...just maybe they might have the presence of mind to pull it out of that downward spiral / self fulfilling prophecy - and stop the inertia - but I wouldn't bet on it.

That's how I believe people are - that's how I think it's best to believe people are - and that's what I think people ought to go on when ascertaining how to treat their spouses. When you have a choice of "should I ignore/neglect my mate's needs" - believe that you are only granted so much grace of doing that before it bites you in the ***. Once you start down that path - you're on borrowed time.

...so don't do it. Always be mindful of your partner's needs, if you truly value what you have. They aren't different. Nobody is. Be the kind of spouse they want to remain with.

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and to that end - I can kinda understand why the guy is getting defensive.

Basically, the stance a lot of you are taking seems to suggest that if a woman is refusing, that it's some fault of the man's actions. What that infers to me, then, is that were everything going swimmingly, then she would want sex.

...and I think that's a simplistic point of view.

Is it true often? Yes. But - is it a fundamental truth? No - I don't believe it is - because it removes other equally important factors in my eyes.

Like I said before - there are women out there when I was single that it would not matter WHAT they did - I wouldn't be interested. No amount of attention, cuddling, paying attention to me, etc...would make me want to see them naked. There simply isn't the correlation between "you treat me well" and "I want to have sex with you" that those statements imply.

Suggesting what you're suggesting makes it sound like women are different. Like, I could be any kind of obese loser I wanted to be, but so long as I treated her well enough, eventually she'd want to have sex with me. I don't believe that's true. Men that treat women well that the woman isn't attracted to are called "friends"...and I'm certain every single one of you knows what I'm talking about.

So, what would happen if you in your youthful ignorance made a mis-step and crossed a boundary you ought not have crossed with a "friend"? Over the long haul - would that really change how you felt about them being in "friend" category? Then let's say in youthful stupidity - and who knows the reason why - but let's say you married that person.

How would that play out?

I predict - sexual denial (because you just don't feel it) - followed by feelings of alienation by him - followed by emotional withdrawl from him - followed by feelings of alienation by her (leading to greater denial) - followed by increasing emotional withdrawl - followed by her toying with the idea "this was a mistake" and finding an online "friend" - followed by him finding out - blah blah - until we are where we are today.

Nobody wants to be a dirtbag. Nobody wants to deceive. Nobody wants to hurt others...but once again people are people...and that's what ends up happening.

Dunno what my point is beyond that - except that I don't really feel comfortable looking at the human condition and then lambasting people for being human. I think he messed up - but I also think from what he's described it also kinda seemed circumstantially pre-ordained on both sides.

If I were him - if he wants to salvage his relationship - I would never bring up the online "friend" again. What she did is just as understandable as what he did. If he has truly forgiven her - the thought should never leave his lips (or fingers) again. He should focus on trying to be a good spouse, to the extent that it's even workable in this relationship.

But what he really needs to find out is - was it a mistake to get married in her eyes? And I'm not talking about right now after all this crap has happened. What I'm talking about is...way back at the start...before this snowball started rolling...did she have a profound "what the hell did I just do?" moment after marrying him? Before all this began - if she had the option of a take-back - would she have taken it?

That kind of sets the stage for everything - and whatever possibility there is for any sort of reconciliation I think.