Not everyone gets into Heaven

[DavinMochrie]

I found the section.

BibleGateway.com - PassageLookup: LUKE 17

20Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within[b] you."

For those who like KJV

20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

[QuakerOats]

Not to sound like I am "attacking liberals" because quite honestly this issue has nothing to do with even being liberal...but how can you desire anyone to want to be tossed in the lake of fire? I use lake of fire because that is where hell and death will be thrown into according to Revelation if I am not mistaken..

Do you hate these people? I am just honestly trying to find out why you would even want this for anyone..

I don't think it's a true desire, at least not long-standing. Correct me if I'm wrong, Davin, but I think it's the occasional fleeting thought of something mean happening to someone who's made you angry. Like honking your horn and muttering under your breath at the slowpoke in front of you on the highway. I think it's natural to feel this way sometimes. At the end of the day though, I think it's important to put those feelings into perspective, and to (hopefully) realize that we don't really wish mean things on anyone.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

It's part of a fascinating dialogue in Luke 17. Enjoy.

The question for Jesus was not the "where" or geography of his domain as much as the "what," the nature and substance of it, the reality and order that was revealed in it. Matt 5-7 show that emphasis.

God-on-Earth doesn't need to be concerned with either location or clocks. Time/space answers to Him, and the nature He forms *is* no matter where or when.

Luke 17:20
Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say "Look, here it is! Or "There" for behold, the Kingdom of God is in the midst of you."

I always assumed that mean Christ, was among the people for He continues to describe the Son of Man to His disciples if you continue reading Luke 17. For it would be strange that Jesus said to the Pharisee that the kingdom of God is "within you". But we are also told that Christ is the head of the Church and that He and the Father dwells with those whom love Him. And that is why I always understood it to be that the Kingdom of God is Christ and that it is only one aspect of the Kingdom.

As for the post that I quoted, He said that the Kingdom of God is within us, okay, but I don't think it's just that simply to say that the Kingdom of God is within us. For we have many passages where it tells us to "enter". We also have countless passages that tell us that Heaven and Hell/Lake of fire is a place. Heaven is not simply a state of being and we can't say that Hell is non existence. For we are told in scripture that Hell is a place where those whom does not do God's will, will be thrown in the lake of fire. We can't say the Kingdom of God is within us but yet deny and say there is no hell/lake of fire. We are told that one day we will see the glory of God in Heaven, so we do know that it is also a place. And on the day of judgment, if you read all through Matthew 25, scripture says in verse 46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

 

[DavinMochrie]

I don't think it's a true desire, at least not long-standing. Correct me if I'm wrong, Davin, but I think it's the occasional fleeting thought of something mean happening to someone who's made you angry. Like honking your horn and muttering under your breath at the slowpoke in front of you on the highway. I think it's natural to feel this way sometimes. At the end of the day though, I think it's important to put those feelings into perspective, and to (hopefully) realize that we don't really wish mean things on anyone.

Exactly.

 

[MattLangley]

Luke 17:20
Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say "Look, here it is! Or "There" for behold, the Kingdom of God is in the midst of you."

I always assumed that mean Christ, was among the people for He continues to describe the Son of Man to His disciples if you continue reading Luke 17. For it would be strange that Jesus said to the Pharisee that the kingdom of God is "within you". But we are also told that Christ is the head of the Church and that He and the Father dwells with those whom love Him. And that is why I always understood it to be that the Kingdom of God is Christ and that it is only one aspect of the Kingdom.

As for the post that I quoted, He said that the Kingdom of God is within us, okay, but I don't think it's just that simply to say that the Kingdom of God is within us. For we have many passages where it tells us to "enter". We also have countless passages that tell us that Heaven and Hell/Lake of fire is a place. Heaven is not simply a state of being and we can't say that Hell is non existence. For we are told in scripture that Hell is a place where those whom does not do God's will, will be thrown in the lake of fire. We can't say the Kingdom of God is within us but yet deny and say there is no hell/lake of fire. We are told that one day we will see the glory of God in Heaven, so we do know that it is also a place. And on the day of judgment, if you read all through Matthew 25, scripture says in verse 46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Here's some further context:

Luke 17:20-21

Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

(note the only other time the world translated to "within you" is used in the New Testament is in reference to cleansing what is "within" a cup)

So it doesn't come with careful observation
People won't be saying here it is or there it is
because it is within you

Now whether you take the last part to be within you, among you, or in the midst of you like the multiple translations say, if he was meaning himself being "among" or in the midst of them, then they would be able to say "here it is" and "there it is." It seems very obvious Jesus was saying you won't be able to point to it and you can't find it with observation (most likely referring to the religious leaders he was talking to setting up their systems of requirements and rules in order to be "pure," this system Jesus often challenged). So if you can't say here it is or there it is then to me it simply cannot make sense and mean Jesus himself, that would be a contradiction of his own words (though this is just my perspective). The more likely explanation is the more obvious one in my opinion, that it is indeed within us, that the Kingdom of God is how we live our lives experiencing God. That doing good things, helping eachother, and transforming ourselves in God is the Kingdom of God Jesus spoke about. This fits very in line with the mass majority of what he taught, he taught how to live our lives in the here and now.

 

[MattLangley]

We also have countless passages that tell us that Heaven and Hell/Lake of fire is a place.

I disagree with Hell. The world translated to "Hell" is Gehenna in most cases (in all the cases Jesus said it). This should have never been translated since this is indeed a physical place, the Valley of Hinnom from the Old Testament. This was a place in which the vilest of criminals were burnt in the everlasting fires, in which the bodies decayed as well. This was a representation of what would happen to you if you were wicked, you'd end up in Gehenna. Much like we use Soddom and Gommorah to represent a kingdom under God's judgement. "Hell" does not exist, Gehenna does though.

As far as the lake of fire mentioned in Revelations you'll notice the word "Hell" is not in fact in the NIV translation, it's in the KJV one, that is because they translated three words to Hell in the KJV... Sheol (in the Old Testament), Hades, and Gehenna.

Other translations don't translate all of those words to Hell, typically only Gehenna. Why? Because they are three different words. Gehenna is the most common case in the New Testament of "Hell", as I mentioned that's the word Jesus used. It has a specific conotation because it's a name of a place.

Sheol and Hades mean the same thing basically, in the New Testament a verse from the Old Testament is quoted using the word Hades in place of Sheol.

Now Sheol and Hades are often translated to mean Death and Grave... As you'll notice in the NIV translation of Revelations where the KJV used "Hell" they instead use death or the grave (note: the new KJV translates a lot of these to death, grave, or keeps it as hades as well). This is a much more accurate translation of the word.

So Revelations never uses the same word for Hell (Gehenna) that Jesus used. It does talk about a lake of fire but look at all the imagery in Revelations, we have:

Rev. 1:14-16

His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.'

Rev. 4:6-8

Also before the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.

In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings.

Rev. 5:6

Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth.

Rev. 6:4

Then another horse came out, a fiery red one.

Rev. 6:8

I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him.

Rev. 9:17

The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur.

Rev. 12:3-4

Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.

Rev. 12:14

The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.

Rev. 13:1-2

...And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

I'll stop there... now here are things to consider:

1) Look at all the imagery used in Revelations. No one actually interprets most of those things as literal, multiple headed beasts, horses of fire, etc. Why would we then pick a single set of text amidst this pile of imagery and say that it is literal.
2) Consider that the word Jesus used for Hell is never used in Relevations at all.
3) A lake or river of fire is not even original imagery. The Ancient Egyptians believed in the underworld containing rivers and lakes of fire (with fire demon like creatures that threatened the wicked). This is a concept that existed for a long time as an afterlife of punishment for the wicked, not original to Revelations.
4) My final point would be the confliction of using that concept as Hell... here's Rev. 20:14 the KJV and the NIV one.

KJV

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

NIV

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

So this is the most avident case of the KVJ version translating to Hell being obviously innacurate, but even so obviously the lake of fire and hell are different places. Again amidst all the imagery of revelation this verse doesn't need to be literal.

 

[BABYCUBY]

Ok Let Me Get This Straight, God Creates The Universe And The Evolutionary Process That Created Our Environment As Well As Human Beings, Billions Of Years Ago, And Your Asking If Everyone Is Going To Heaven? I Think You Should Post This In The Right-wing Republican Pentecostal/ Fundalmentalist Groups Where They Believe Heaven Is In The Sky Hell Is In The Ground, This World Was Created In 6 Days And The Bible Is The Word Of God. You Are In The Wrong Place My Friend We Are Progressives Over Here.

 

[Toclafane]

..

 

[DavinMochrie]

Ok Let Me Get This Straight, God Creates The Universe And The Evolutionary Process That Created Our Environment As Well As Human Beings, Billions Of Years Ago, And Your Asking If Everyone Is Going To Heaven? I Think You Should Post This In The Right-wing Republican Pentecostal/ Fundalmentalist Groups Where They Believe Heaven Is In The Sky Hell Is In The Ground, This World Was Created In 6 Days And The Bible Is The Word Of God. You Are In The Wrong Place My Friend We Are Progressives Over Here.

Are you rudely addressing me (The original poster)?

Please say yes, and I will have this thread closed.

 

[AzA]

For it would be strange that Jesus said to the Pharisee that the kingdom of God is "within you".

I'm sure they thought it strange too, especially since they were expecting a physical and political kingdom. We have done much the same in expecting a literal superstate. And we may one day have such a state, a whole-world state, with a single city for a capital, and a templeless sanctuary for a church, but that won't be the sum of the Kingdom. That won't even be the shell of it. Restoration of right relationship at every level of creation and between creation and Creator -- that is the sum of the Kingdom. And that is the state that Jesus' life, prayers, and teachings all describe. It's the substance behind the curtain that the prophets peeked behind.

But we are also told that Christ is the head of the Church and that He and the Father dwells with those whom love Him. And that is why I always understood it to be that the Kingdom of God is Christ and that it is only one aspect of the Kingdom.

I understand. Metaphors all teach us something about the thing they describe. The trick is to embrace the meaning without becoming distracted by the vehicle, or the thing that carries that meaning.

As for the post that I quoted, He said that the Kingdom of God is within us, okay, but I don't think it's just that simply to say that the Kingdom of God is within us. For we have many passages where it tells us to "enter".

I don't think any poster was suggesting that we jettison any one image for another. Rather it's helpful to acknowledge the various images that are available because they all teach us something about the Kingdom, about God, and about ourselves.

Are you rudely addressing me (The original poster)?

Bless his heart, DM. He's new.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Here's some further context:

Luke 17:20-21


(note the only other time the world translated to "within you" is used in the New Testament is in reference to cleansing what is "within" a cup)

So it doesn't come with careful observation
People won't be saying here it is or there it is
because it is within you

Now whether you take the last part to be within you, among you, or in the midst of you like the multiple translations say, if he was meaning himself being "among" or in the midst of them, then they would be able to say "here it is" and "there it is." It seems very obvious Jesus was saying you won't be able to point to it and you can't find it with observation (most likely referring to the religious leaders he was talking to setting up their systems of requirements and rules in order to be "pure," this system Jesus often challenged). So if you can't say here it is or there it is then to me it simply cannot make sense and mean Jesus himself, that would be a contradiction of his own words (though this is just my perspective). The more likely explanation is the more obvious one in my opinion, that it is indeed within us, that the Kingdom of God is how we live our lives experiencing God. That doing good things, helping eachother, and transforming ourselves in God is the Kingdom of God Jesus spoke about. This fits very in line with the mass majority of what he taught, he taught how to live our lives in the here and now.

I mean that Jesus would not say to the Pharisee's that the Kingdom of God is "within you" when in another verse He says to us in Matthew 5:20
"For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven". So, I say the Kingdom of God here on earth might be in our midst but I think there is more aspects of the Kingdom of Heaven then it just being within us. As in "experiencing God" again, I don't understand what that means, but I know we do things that bring honor to God because we love Him. But we are told about Hell/lake of fire and of Heaven and we are told that they are places, physical places or spiritual places one can only guess for it doesn't matter, because in the end, we will be judged and we will go into one or the other. And we are promised to spend eternal life with God, and that means He will be there, not simply that we will experience Him by doing good but we will be in the place where He is.

As for using the word hell, lake of fire, Christ Himself gave us parables explaining it. He died so we can be saved from sin and not be eternally punished from it. I don't know of any teachings of the Old testament about Hell (that is not to say that there are none but that I am not extremely well versed in the Old testament when it comes to the understanding of Hell how they understood it), but Hell is explained a great deal in the New Testament. To take away Hell and said that it is not really a place, take away the sacrifice of what Christ came to do. If there is really no hell and no punishment for our sins then Christ's sacrifice doesn't make sense.

 

[wiggsfly]

If Jesus came truly for us all then we should all be in Heaven. I believe however that we are all given a choice as to whether the accept the invitation. Those who believe in God will be with him and the few that really don't (even most self proclaimed atheists are theists without organized religions) will not be with the Lord. We get what we choose, eternal life, or death.

 

[AzA]

I mean that Jesus would not say to the Pharisee's that the Kingdom of God is "within you" when in another verse He says to us in Matthew 5:20
"For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven".

And yet He did say it. You asked for the reference and people provided you with it.

There is no need to dismiss one preposition in favor of another. We miss a lot by requiring a single storyline from a culture in which many storylines concurrently taught something different about the same subject: privileging one storyline over another means losing an opportunity to draw additional meaning.

The Kingdom is both a pearl and a net; both a seed and a child; both treasure to be searched out and a fold for one to be brought into. That being the case, to demand that it could only be a pearl (and not a net, seed, child, treasure, or fold) is to miss 5/6ths of that story, and a whole world of additional and unlisted possibilities.

What appears to be contradiction when we insist on a single meaning becomes a really beautiful picture when we relinquish control of the text and the God it points to.

 

[Catherineanne]

There are times where, after the weight of the world i coming down on me, that I feel comfortable some people are going to hell.

Hopefully the hypocrites first!

I'm pretty sure the spite-filled Christians that turn people away from God are at the start of the line to be tossed in the lack of fire.

It is a nice fantasy, sometimes, but it is highly unlikely that God will be as bothered by such people as we are, let alone throw them - or anyone else for that matter - into a lake of fire.

In my view, the only people not admitted to eternity will be those who refuse to enter. Otherwise, all are welcome at the Feast of the Lamb.

If we are on a different table from those we happen to disagree with, that is heaven. If they are on our table, that is hell. Otherwise, same place.

 

[Catherineanne]

If there is really no hell and no punishment for our sins then Christ's sacrifice doesn't make sense.

As I see it, this is exactly the wrong way round.

If God loves mankind so much that he is willing to die for us, then it makes no sense for him to be able to throw us into eternal torment.

Such a concept is incompatible with God as revealed in Christ, and incompatible with our faith.

 

[OneOfTheMany]

What appears to be contradiction when we insist on a single meaning becomes a really beautiful picture when we relinquish control of the text and the God it points to.

someone on CF that makes sense? wow, good work

 

[MattLangley]

The power in Christ was not in how he died but in how he lived.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

And yet He did say it. You asked for the reference and people provided you with it.

There is no need to dismiss one preposition in favor of another. We miss a lot by requiring a single storyline from a culture in which many storylines concurrently taught something different about the same subject: privileging one storyline over another means losing an opportunity to draw additional meaning.

The Kingdom is both a pearl and a net; both a seed and a child; both treasure to be searched out and a fold for one to be brought into. That being the case, to demand that it could only be a pearl (and not a net, seed, child, treasure, or fold) is to miss 5/6ths of that story, and a whole world of additional and unlisted possibilities.

What appears to be contradiction when we insist on a single meaning becomes a really beautiful picture when we relinquish control of the text and the God it points to.

I'm not dismissing the reference, I'm saying that the verses "within you" can't simply mean that the Kingdom of God is within us when we are given other references that tells us it's a place.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

The power in Christ was not in how he died but in how he lived.

The power in Christ is the fact that He lived sinless, He died for us and took upon our sins and then rose from the dead and defeated death. The salvation that He provides is that He died for our iniquities so that when we come to Him and have been washed for our sins, we are promised eternal life with Christ. If we do not believe in Him, we are condemned already.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

As I see it, this is exactly the wrong way round.

If God loves mankind so much that he is willing to die for us, then it makes no sense for him to be able to throw us into eternal torment.

Such a concept is incompatible with God as revealed in Christ, and incompatible with our faith.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:16-18

God loves mankind so much, so He allowed His Son to die for our iniquities. He gave us a way to Him and He asked His people to preach the good news that Jesus' saves. God warns us about hell, and He provided a way unto salvation. If people don't heed His words, that's their choice, but He has given us a way.The reason why Christ died for us is so that we would have a way to be reconciled back to God and He provided that way through His blood because He was the perfect lamb.

And as for God not throwing people into hell, we have the words of Christ that says, Matthew 25:31-46
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

If it is your opinion that hell goes against your faith, that it is of your opinion, but scripture teaches about hell and it also teaches about salvation and I choose to lean on God's understanding.