Not everyone gets into Heaven

[DeanM]

It seems interesting to me that some folks are basically saying that certain scriptures can be disregarded as long as they believe that there is another scripture that says that they are supposed to do that.

Case in point; disregard Leviticus because Jesus said you could.

The irony lies in the fact that these same folks won't allow someone else to say they disregard Paul because Jesus said we could.

Case in point: Paul claimed that something was an abomination (translations vary on exactly what). Jesus said we should treat others as we would like to be treated. To love one another. To not judge others.

Whichever of these premises we apply, it is clear that certain scriptures from Paul are not to be taken as gospel (literally).

And the really funny part is that I can point out to somebody just how much scripture they ignore, and all I hear is a song and dance about how they're supposed to ignore certain scriptures.

But if I draw the line one inch to the left of where they draw they line, suddenly I'm a nonbeliever who shuns the entirity of God's word.

We see through the glass darkly, remember.

I will err on the side of love, compassion and acceptance in these matters. Others may choose the path of supremacy and alienation.

I may be wrong, but I'm hopeful that God sees this distinction and sides with love over hate.

And I'll pray to that end.

 

[DavinMochrie]

You are right 100% Dean!

 

[Bick]

I believe the only ones whose destiny is the heavenly realms is the Church/body of Christ proclaimed by the Apostle Paul.

From Abraham on, the hope for Israel is the Land promised. God promised King David that a king from his loins would some day sit on his throne, and this will be accomplished by Messiah Jesus when he returns to the earth in power and great glory.

Jesus message during his earthly ministry was "Repent for the kingdom of [the] heavens is near." The resurrection and the life he proclaimed is in the coming age, the millennium, on earth.

 

[DavinMochrie]

God promised King David that a king from his loins would some day sit on his throne, and this will be accomplished by Messiah Jesus when he returns to the earth in power and great glory.

So you are saying God broke his promise? Jesus was a virgin birth after all.

The only mention of David's loins goes down to Joesph.

 

[Bick]

So you are saying God broke his promise? Jesus was a virgin birth after all.

The only mention of David's loins goes down to Joesph.

MY COMMENTS: No Davin, God doesn't break his promises.

There is the Royal Legal Line as set forth in Matthew 1:1-16.

It starts with Abraham, goes through King David, then Solomon on down to Joseph, son of Jacob, husband of Mary of whom was born Jesus Christ.

While Joseph was not his actual father, he was the legal father as far as the Royal Lineage is concerned.

Then the Natural Legal Line is laid out in Luke 3:23-38.

It starts with Jesus being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was [the son] of Heli. From Heli, Jesus lineage is traced back to Adam. being the "seed of the woman" as prophesied in Gen. 3:15.

Heli was the father of Mary, the mother of Jesus.

Joseph was reckoned "according to law" to be the son of Heli by betrothal to Heli's daughter, Mary.

Thus, the Royal Line and the Natural Line of King David both end in Jesus who is called the Christ.

 

[fieryphoenix]

I think the demonization of others is a real problem in Christianity.

I agree with you. I don't like the way some Christians go around saying that others are going to hell simply because they have different beliefs or because of their sexuality.

I think all the talk of hell is the biggest lie the church has perpetuated.

All of the guilt and anger that the church (and its followers) pushes on people is a big reason why people turn against the church

 

[Nobody1]

Do you guys ever do this?

Be honest? Or are you all saints?

Sometimes I think of the fact that God is choosey of who gets into heaven..... and I kinda like that.

There are times where, after the weight of the world i coming down on me, that I feel comfortable some people are going to hell.

Hopefully the hypocrites first!

I'm pretty sure the spite-filled Christians that turn people away from God are at the start of the line to be tossed in the lack of fire.

I wouldn't say "spite" - per se - is the problem with Pharisee sorts. Rather, they teach faith killing rituals that deny the grace of salvation through the Finished Work of God in Jesus Christ crucified.

I am for everyone being saved, but everyone must go to God and that means go through the fire. Those rich in their own spirit find this very difficult to do. Those poor in their own spirit do not, they rejoice at it.

There are many "dead in Christ" who have to be awoken. They have known the Light, but are confused.

 

[Bick]

Quote from Dreamgirl 15
"I mean that Jesus would not say to the Pharisee's that the Kingdom of God is "within you" when in another verse He says to us in Matthew 5:20
"For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven". So, I say the Kingdom of God here on earth might be in our midst but I think there is more aspects of the Kingdom of Heaven then it just being within us. As in "experiencing God" again, I don't understand what that means, but I know we do things that bring honor to God because we love Him. But we are told about Hell/lake of fire and of Heaven and we are told that they are places, physical places or spiritual places one can only guess for it doesn't matter, because in the end, we will be judged and we will go into one or the other. And we are promised to spend eternal life with God, and that means He will be there, not simply that we will experience Him by doing good but we will be in the place where He is.

As for using the word hell, lake of fire, Christ Himself gave us parables explaining it. He died so we can be saved from sin and not be eternally punished from it. I don't know of any teachings of the Old testament about Hell (that is not to say that there are none but that I am not extremely well versed in the Old testament when it comes to the understanding of Hell how they understood it), but Hell is explained a great deal in the New Testament. To take away Hell and said that it is not really a place, take away the sacrifice of what Christ came to do. If there is really no hell and no punishment for our sins then Christ's sacrifice doesn't make sense."

MY COMMENTS: In Luke 17:21, a more correct rendering is this, from Rotherham's Version:

"The kingdom of God comes not with narrow-watching; neither shall they say: 'Behold, here! or, Behold there! for, behold! the kingdom of God is among you."

The kindom of God was among them, for Jesus, the King was there!

That, to me is the proper interpretation.

As for the "kingdom of God" being "in our midst" today, it isn't Jesus, as it was during his earthly ministry.

I see that the "kingdom of God" as the rule of God over the whole universe.
During Jesus earthly ministry he came to his own, Israel, preaching to them "Repent for the kingdom of the heavens is near."
This kingdom will be the Messianic Kingdom headed up by Messiah Jesus. Since Israel nationally rejected him and, it is in abeyance now, but will come to be just as promised. It certainly is and will be part of the kingdom of God.

But now, since God/Christ set apart our Apostle Paul to preach the good news of justification through faith in the finished work of Christ, believers are in the ecclesia/body of Christ; and being complete in Him we are to walk in holiness and righteousness awaiting our meeting Christ Jesus in the air with new bodies, to be taken to the heavenlies.

IMO, the orthodox view of "hell" is not Scriptural: that is, that the souls of unbelievers at death (and in the future) are in conscious eternal torment.
NOTHING CAN BE FARTHER FROM THE TRUTH !

Man is a living soul, a living being with all the senses to experience life.
When man dies, he returns to dust, his senses, memory, experiences etc, disappear, and his spirit (life force being created in him with every breath) returns to God who gave it.

Using a concordance you will see that "hell" was used by the KJV, and many other versions, for "Gehenna".
"Gehenna" was the city dump outside the southern wall of Jerusalem in Jesus' day. It was kept burning to help purify the air and to destroy offal and bodies of criminals thrown there. What wasn't burned up, the maggots (worms) would eat.
It was the worst sentence given by the Sanhedren, the ruling elders of Israel.
Jesus warned his hearers of this judgment eleven times: Mat 5:22, 29, 30; Mat. 10:28; 18:9; 23:15; 23:33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; and Luke 12:5.

I'm convinced that there will be a "Gehenna" outside of the walls of the restored Jerusalem in the millennium.

So, Gehenna was a literal place, as well as the lake of fire will be.

But, since "The wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23), after being judged, those not worthy of life will die. Those cast into the lake of fire die their second death (Rev. 20:11-15).

In the NT, "Hades" is also wrongly intrerpreted as "hell". "Hades" means "unseen" or "the grave" depending on the context.

In the OT, the compilers of the KJV and some others, interpreted the Hebrew word "Sheol" as "hell" in a number of places. Yet, upon careful reading, to me, sheol should be translated as "the grave" or "the unseen."

If one has received Christ as their personal Saviour, they are "in Christ", and now we are justified from all our sins. God sees the future and imputes to us the righteousness of Christ.

God Bless.

 

[Serious Faith]

People don't seem to understand the fact that what the bible says is true, not what we think. "Without holiness no one will see the Lord." Sinful acts don't just happen on their own, we choose to be ungrateful for what Jesus has done for us on the cross and sin againt Him. Jesus said, "If you love Me, obey my commandments." Our sinful nature does not make us commit sinful acts, we make the choice to give into our sinful desires. If someone has the desire to fornicate, do they or do they not have the God given ability to say no to sin? We are to love God enough to obey Him. Next time you have a desire to sin, cause yourself to focus on what Jesus suffered for you, and say no to sin.

 

[Rajni]

People don't seem to understand the fact that what the bible says is true, not what we think.

That is a bit more complicated than it sounds.

There is what the Bible said before it got translated from the original
languages by translators with varying theological biases.

Then, there's what (hundreds of different denominations of) people
think about what the (many different versions of) Bibles say.

"Without holiness no one will see the Lord."

Who do you think is responsible for dispensing holiness to those
who need it?

Jesus said, "If you love Me, obey my commandments."

Many times when people associate obeying the commandments
with loving Jesus, they don't seem to realize that the only one who
was able to "obey the commandments" perfectly (which is the only
way to obey them -- see James 2:10) was Jesus Himself.

So if obeying the commandments is an indicator of one's love for
Jesus, and the only way to obey them correctly is to do so without
sinning once from cradle to coffin, then none of us here today love
Jesus. No one other than Jesus Himself is in heaven right now.
Hear the crickets chirping?

So as to not fall into utter despair at this realization, we just need
to remember that Jesus made a difference. He fulfilled all
law/commandment-keeping for us, because we never could,
never can, and never will be able to. He was the perfect sacrifice;
our attempts at works-righteousness don't impress God at all.

Our sinful nature does not make us commit sinful acts, we make the choice to give into our sinful desires.

Our choice to sin comes from our sinful nature, the latter into
which we were born without our choice in the matter. Romans
11:32 indicates that God Himself locked us up in disobedience for
the purpose of showing us mercy. Nobody volunteered to be born
a sinner; this whole thing was pre-arranged from higher up.




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[Serious Faith]

God does not excuse sin He forgives it. God provided provision for forgiveness not a free pass to keep sinning. We chose to sin. Does God want us to sin? Why would God ask us to obey Him if He did not expect us to? Cravings don't move us, we move to give into them. Jesus Himself said, "few will enter in". Only those who love Jesus & obey Him will inherit eternal life. Obedience is a choice not an option. Whosoever will... Are you willing to follow Christ in Holiness?

 

[Rajni]

We chose to sin.

You did? How did you do that? I was born a sinner
from the get-go and was never offered a choice
otherwise. I want my money back! LOL!

Does God want us to sin? Why would God ask us to obey Him if He did not expect us to?

Why would God create us as sinful beings if He
expected us to be perfect? It sounds like you missed my
previous post addressing this very issue (see post #90). If
you want to be justified by obeying commandments (do you
know how many there are? It's not just the 10!), go right
ahead, but you must have done that perfectly from cradle to
grave if you want obedience to be your justification before
God. Good luck with that!

Obedience is a choice not an option.

There is no one who does good (Romans 3:12). So obviously
obedience (a vague word to begin with) isn't a choice for the
average human.

Whosoever will...

It does not depend on the man who wills or the man who
runs, but on God who has mercy (Romans 9:16).

Are you willing to follow Christ in Holiness?

Firstly, to whom are you addressing this question?
Secondly, this question presumes that people here aren't
already willing and actually doing this very thing. Surely you
didn't mean to come across so presumptuously. Did you?





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[Serious Faith]

If obedience isn't a choice, why is that we can obey the speed limit when see a police officer? Why is that a person won't cheat in front their spouse?

God created Adam & Eve sinless but they chose to sin like we do everyday. We are to strive to be holy, and if we stumble, confess & repent, God will forgive us.

When we are aware of the presence of God it should affect our behavior.

We are born with a sinful nature and desires that we must learn to control out of fear and love for God. "If you love me, obey my commandments"

God knowing that we would sin doesn't mean that He wants us to continue doing it. God said "be holy, as I AM Holy". God would never ask us to do something we cannot do or expect to do.

Is it okay to willfully sin? Are we to pursue holiness, or is it optianal?

 

[Serious Faith]

We will sin at times until we die. But the truth is that we have the ability not sin when we are tempted. I may be tempted to speed on the highway, but when I see the police I choose not to speed. Why is that I won't choose not to speed knowing that God is watching? And that's my point. If we believe in God we should be walking holy in His presence. If we are not, we need to ask ourselves why. Can we or can't we obey the Lord if we choose to? Does God want us to obey Him, or is it optional? Somebody please answer plainly.

 

[MattLangley]

Can we or can't we obey the Lord if we choose to? Does God want us to obey Him, or is it optional? Somebody please answer plainly.

I would say no, plainly.

He doesn't want us to obey him... why would I say such a thing? Well for starters I don't think God treats us like his little pet. I don't think he gives us commands like a dog, such as "sit", "lay", "take this job." I have always found it ironic that people liken God to a father (or a parent in general) and liken those commands to them. Most parents don't want to command their children and have them obey, at least not when they reach a certain age. The happiest people are those that live there own life and I think the best parents are those that try to help their children achieve whatever it is they want to achieve (within limitations of course, if you want to be a serial killer then of course you wouldn't encourage that).

So keeping with the whole God being a parent comparison I believe he doesn't give us commands, but suggestions and advice. I think he wants us to not just obey him, but to live our own lives but simply heed his warnings and suggestions.

 

[AzA]

Matt -- interesting point there. Some theology does not account for maturity. Or for the possibility that, unlike a human parent, God need not fear the range of His children. Whereas a human parent discovers the nature of his/her child, God made the nature of His.
We often treat Him as Columbus rather than as Creator.

 

[Serious Faith]

So is obedience optional? Why did Jesus say, "If you love me obey my commandments."? Again, it's not what we think that matters but what Jesus says. The reason the world is in the condition that it is is because people don't obey God. Gods love & word changes our hearts, obedience changes our lives.

Because God allows sin does not mean He wants us to keep doing it. Why did Jesus tell the woman caught in the act of adultry, "go and sin no more"? Of course God wants us to mature, part of maturity is taking responsibility for our own actions.

Can we or can't we chose to obey God?

 

[Rajni]

If obedience isn't a choice, why is that we can obey the speed limit when see a police officer?

The fact that a speed limit has to be enforced is proof that
obedience isn’t a given. If obedience were a choice, why doesn’t
everyone, everywhere, choose to obey 100% of the time,
especially if it's true that "endless hell" is the reward for not doing
so?

Also, what’s your definition of “obedience”, from a religious
perspective? Given that we’ve got hundreds of different Christian
denominations, each with their own idea of what constitutes
“obedience”, how is one supposed to filter through all of the smoke
and mirrors to find the true definition of obedience according to God
rather than second-hand from members of His fan club who don't
even agree with each other as to what "obedience" should look
like?

God created Adam & Eve sinless but they chose to sin like we do everyday.

If He created them sinless they wouldn’t have chosen to sin.
Choosing to sin is itself a sin, so a sinless person wouldn't do that.

We are to strive to be holy, and if we stumble, confess & repent, God will forgive us.

“Striving” to “be holy” can mean different things to different
persuasions of Christianity. Holiness means something different to
Roman Catholics from it does to Baptists, etc. Who is right? Who
isn’t? Should anyone even bother looking to a religion made up of
hundreds of conflicting denominations to tell them what “striving to
be holy” even means?

This is why I think it's an area of expertise best left for God alone
to do, to work on each individual directly and let the peanut-gallery
refrain from judging who is and who isn’t striving to be holy.

When we are aware of the presence of God it should affect our behavior.

But first it’s the power of God that must
transform a person. God makes the first move by giving a person
His Spirit. Without His Spirit dwelling within, a person won’t be tuned
in to God.

We are born with a sinful nature and desires that we must learn to control out of fear and love for God.

Perfect love casts out fear. (1 John 4:18)

I would guess the fear most Christians have is rooted more in the
fear of the eternal misery they anticipate will take place if they don't
follow the rules (which vary depending on who you talk to).

"If you love me, obey my commandments"

Everyone was still living under the old, commandment-keeping
covenant when Jesus said that. The new covenant had not yet
begun. Therefore, obeying the commandments and adhering to the
Law was still the mark of a believer.

We are now living post-cross – Jesus fulfilled the law on our behalf.
We no longer have to follow all the various and sundry laws.

I asked you this previously – do you know how many
commandments there are? And how perfectly you would have to
follow them if you’re going to rely on your own ability to keep
commandments in order to please God?

God knowing that we would sin doesn't mean that He wants us to continue doing it.

However, leading a perfectly sinless life isn’t going to happen, and
Christians who emphasize good works and law-keeping in order to
stay out of "hell" need to realize that the only way one’s good
works can save them is if one never sins even once, between the
time they are born till the time they die. Jesus Christ is the only one
who could accomplish that, which is why He went through the
trouble He did for us. The Commandment-Pushing set carries on as
though the Messiah never even came to begin with.

God said "be holy, as I AM Holy". God would never ask us to do something we cannot do or expect to do.

Our holiness is not our doing, though. God is the Author and
Finisher of our faith. He is the one who begins the good work in us
and promises to bring it to completion. So Christians who carry on
about how not everyone will get into heaven based on people not
measuring up need to see that God is the one who transforms a
person to holiness and He’s not going to bail out halfway through
the project. Plus, since love and mercy are part of His makeup, He's
not going to pick and choose who will be saved and who won't.
He's the Savior of The World, not just a fraction of it, and He will
carry out His intended purpose.

Jesus also commanded people to be healed and to get up and walk.
But the fact that He commanded them to do so doesn’t mean that
they were able to do so apart from His doing it through them. We
can't do anything apart from Him.

Is it okay to willfully sin? Are we to pursue holiness, or is it optianal?

See first His Kingdom and His righteousness; a noble pursuit I would
highly recommend to anyone. But the motivation for doing so
shouldn't come from a desire to brown-nose God into keeping
them out of "hell". Scripture says we love Him because He first
loved us, not because He threatened to fry us if we don’t.

True, many Christians -- me included -- clung to God out of fear of
the endless punishment we thought we'd get if we didn't, but many
of us are now coming to realize that since Jesus came to seek and
save the lost, and "the lost" includes everyone, He will seek and
save all.



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[Serious Faith]

Matt -- interesting point there. Some theology does not account for maturity. Or for the possibility that, unlike a human parent, God need not fear the range of His children. Whereas a human parent discovers the nature of his/her child, God made the nature of His.
We often treat Him as Columbus rather than as Creator.

Are you suggesting that it is Gods fault that we sin? God is testing us not discovering us. Our faith is proven genuine by us obeying Him. "I set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life". Whoever does not keep God's word does not belong to God. Read The Holy Bible.

 

[Rajni]

Are you suggesting that it is Gods fault that we sin?

Are you saying that God (who is Omniscient, remember) didn't see it
coming when He created us the way He did?

God doesn't have faults. He chose to create us the way He did. He is
the Potter. We're just the clay.


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