Not bashing Catholics...

[InHisName]

InHisName: I am not bashing Catholics. In the other thread I was just stating what i have observed over the years.

If the truth hurts, Sorry! All churches have their problem. I can promise that. I go to a Baptist church and I love my church. I don't love it because it is Baptist. I love it because the leadership is very obedient and encourage and train us to share our Faith. They send out faith teams to people who have visited and while visiting they always make sure people a clear on salvation. Even if they are members, they still get question about what do they believe that it take for them to get to heaven. Are their bad Baptist Churches?You Bet! If mankind takes part in anything (which we do), then it can be corrupt.

KC Catholic: I'm the moderator and quite frankly, I understand why Kirk and Wols both are upset. We answer these same issues again and again, even to the point of being attacked - and they've had enough.

InHisName: Yeah they do get to tense. They should remember that this is print on a screen and the questions will keep popping up and they will have to answer them over and over. The thing about message boards is that more people will read post then will participate. That is one reason it is good to have repetitive post. New comers can see both sides of a topic they are interested in. If you don?t like the post from non catholic views then I would recommend that you make this board into a member only board. This is the Internet..you will never stop the attacks.

 

[Wolseley]

I didn't think I was upset with the repetitive questions. Annoyed, maybe, and sometimes irrittated when the tone of a post seemed to be particularly snotty, but never upset.

I used to blow my cork once in a while over on The Board That Shall Not Be Mentioned, when the Church of the Triple S used to get out of hand, but I don't do that anymore.

The only thing that I would recommend is that new posters go through the 7 or 8 archived pages of this forum and read through them---they would find that 98% of their questions have already been answered.

This is the Internet..you will never stop the attacks.

Frankly, attacks from atheists or pagans I can not only tolerate, but fully expect. But the type of attacks that I have gotten from Christians---- who are supposedly supposed to following the example of Jesus Christ towards their fellow man, and even their enemies.......well, I guess I just expected a little bit more. It has become clear over and over again as the years have gone by that I was wrong.

Blessings,
---Wols.

 

[BlalronResurrected]

I guess if you call any criticism of the Catholic Church as an "attack", then I'm guilty of "attacking you".

1. I don't think the Pope is infallible.

2. Considering the Catholic Church's past history (Inquisitions, Crusades, the Galileo thing, silence during the Holocaust, etc) why should I have faith in them now?

3. I don't think that Mary stayed a virgin her entire life even though she was married. The virgin birth, that's a matter of faith. But to beleive that a married couple never had sex is just plain gullibility.

Neither do I think there was anything about her that deserves the reverence the RCC gives to her. Jesus Christ himself said to Mary, "Woman, what have I to do with thee?"

4. I don't think praying to dead saints will do you any good. Furthermore, they can't hear you. They aren't omniscient and can't deal with millions of prayers in a day like God can. Why not just go directly to God and cut out the middle man?

5. I don't think Catholic baptism or sacraments are a requirement to get into heaven. Salvation is through Jesus Christ alone, not through the church or any other organization.

6. I don't think contraception is wrong as long as it's practiced within the confines of marriage like sex should be. I don't think it's a "mortal sin" that will cause you to burn in hell for it unless confessed.

 

[Reborn2000]

I'm not here to get into any debates, just looking for information on the Catholic Church. One thing I do have to comment on, however is the following:

Yeah they do get to tense. They should remember that this is print on a screen and the questions will keep popping up and they will have to answer them over and over.

I know a lot of the time that things on the computer screen can be taken a different way than what they were intended, however reading back over these threads that have been closed, I can see why they were. I saw many offensive things directed toward the Catholic members here, and I have yet to understand the attacking of another Christians faith. That just seems wrong to me. Anyway, my main point I wanted to make was that none of the members of this forum have to answer questions, as it was suggested. Thankfully we have people here who are willing to share their knowledge and help others with their questions. I am truly thankful for that. Okay off my soapbox now....heehee!!

Hugs,
Kelly

 

[ZooMom]

Attacks are rarely posed as questions. We can and do answer questions. The problems come in when ppl like BlalronResurrected come in and make a post like she just did. 'I think' posts, like all the mysteries of the world are made clear because of what 'I think'. Instead of asking WHY Catholics believe differently than she does, she has already decided we are wrong because she 'thinks' differently. And throws in that we are 'gullible' for not 'thinking' the way she does. AND provides absolutely NO evidence to support her 'thinking'. It's a miracle we all didn't swoon at her eloquence and persuasion.





God bless...

Sandy

 

[ZooMom]

that really burns me...

Posts like the first one that said "if the truth hurts, sorry!", after it was already stated that they were only posting their own observations! So sure you're perfectly right, that anytime you offend someone with your ignorance, it must be because they are dodging the 'truth'. Spare me.

 

[Wolseley]

I guess if you call any criticism of the Catholic Church as an "attack", then I'm guilty of "attacking you".

I didn't mention any names, Blalron, so there is no reason whatsoever for you to take this personally. In fact, I was specifically talking about sites like the Left Behind Message Board, where anti-Catholic posters not only told me the usual sheep dip about how deluded and moronic I was, that I was going to hell, etc., but that if I did by some chance make it into heaven, I'd be sweeping the streets and scrubbing the toilets, doing menial labor for the "real" saints. I guess that takes care of "God is no respecter of persons", eh?

1. I don't think the Pope is infallible.

I don't think Martin Luther was, either. In fact, I think his ideas about sola scriptura and justification by faith alone are very fallible.

2. Considering the Catholic Church's past history (Inquisitions, Crusades, the Galileo thing, silence during the Holocaust, etc) why should I have faith in them now?

Leaving aside for the moment the fact that anywhere from 50 to 90% of this can be proven historically to be a myth, depending on the subject at hand....considering the Protestant church's past history (witch burnings, state-sanctioned executions, snake-handling, strychnine-drinking, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Sun Myung Moon, denial of key Christian doctrines such as the Trinity for some Protestants, and a complete inability to maintain even the slightest modicum of unity in their thinking which has led to 20,000 different bodies which continues to splinter even as we speak), why should I have faith in them?

3. I don't think that Mary stayed a virgin her entire life even though she was married. The virgin birth, that's a matter of faith. But to beleive that a married couple never had sex is just plain gullibility.

You're free to think what you like. But prior to 1900, there were a lot of "Josephite marriages" where the couple never had sex. You have to stop thinking that everybody in history thought like 20th-century people think. They didn't.

Neither do I think there was anything about her that deserves the reverence the RCC gives to her. Jesus Christ himself said to Mary, "Woman, what have I to do with thee?"

The angel said Mary was "full of grace". Look it up in the Greek.

4. I don't think praying to dead saints will do you any good. Furthermore, they can't hear you. They aren't omniscient and can't deal with millions of prayers in a day like God can.

There are plenty of passages in Scripture which support the idea. It simply depends on whether you accept the doctrine to begin with or not. You seem to be quite sure of your contentions, however, so I'll merely say that I have doubts about your personal infallibility until you can prove that you've been to the other side and have come back with evidence to indicate that you're right and we're wrong.

Why not just go directly to God and cut out the middle man?

Make sure you never ask anybody to pray for you again. If you do, maybe they'll quote you above.

5. I don't think Catholic baptism or sacraments are a requirement to get into heaven. Salvation is through Jesus Christ alone, not through the church or any other organization.

I agree that salvation is through Jesus Christ. I differ with you as to the means that Jesus established for that salvation. I adhere to what Jesus taught in the Gospel and the Apostolic Tradition; you adhere to what Martin Luther came up with in the 16th century.

6. I don't think contraception is wrong as long as it's practiced within the confines of marriage like sex should be. I don't think it's a "mortal sin" that will cause you to burn in hell for it unless confessed.

Which is simply another example of the fact that for you, you are the final authority for all rules of faith, doctrine, and morals. It may be based on your personal reading of Scripture, or on what you were taught by your church, or simply on what "you think", or perhaps a combination thereof----but you are it, nobody else. In my case, I am willing to concede that I am capable of error. The One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, through the Teaching Magesterium established by Christ, is not. I willingly bow to their judgement.

et cognoscetis veritatem et veritas liberabit vos

Semper redibo laetus hunc diem praecipuum in memoriam.

'I think' posts, like all the mysteries of the world are made clear because of what 'I think'.

This, ZooMom, is very, very true. It's a little difficult to get an impartial trial when the verdict has already been pronounced.

Blessings,
---Wols.

 

[VOW52]

Wols, I've always admired your posts; I think you show admirable restraint, and much patience in answering all questions.

I DO understand how it gets tiresome from defending the faith from the same attacks, over and over and over. Sometimes, you have to just walk away, no matter how hard it is. (That's why I won't return to the LBMB!)

I even applaud your perseverence and PATIENCE, Wols, when you kept getting clobbered over the head with the stupid FISH debate, LOL!

To our non-Catholic friends: Ask away! But please, open your hearts, your minds, and your souls. Learn about the Catholic faith, but don't berate it, don't demean it, and don't try to interpret it on your own. Appreciate the common origins of Christianity, and embrace Catholics as fellow believers in Jesus Christ.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[DarkWave]

Despite being Protestant (and a former Baptist at that!), I make it my practice to not criticize Catholicism. Sure, there are some obvious differences in belief, but I like to find common ground where possible. The fact is, we are all part of God's family. As I understand it, the current Pope has been gracious enough to proclaim that truth.

Over time, I have discovered shortcomings in practice and belief among Protestants. My criticism of these issues would tend to apply to organized religion of all stripes. My focus is on practical aspects of what defines ministry. I see no point in trying to promote one sect at the expense of others.

 

[LouisBooth]

What I think happens is that wols and others go to "anti-catholic" boards and come back here with "their armor on", for lack of a better phrase, and when someone asks a question that seems in anyway hostile the chop them to pieces causeing the other party to get mad and chop back. I'm not saying ya'll are always at fault, just my take on it.

"Ask away! But please, open your hearts, your minds, and your souls. Learn about the Catholic faith, but don't berate it, don't demean it, and don't try to interpret it on your own"

Agreed, and I would ask ya'll to do the same.

"Appreciate the common origins of Christianity, and embrace Catholics as fellow believers in Jesus Christ."

kind of a loaded phrase..catholics where the beginning of christanity... but I do see you as fellow believers.

 

[Kirkland1244]

What I think happens is that wols and others go to "anti-catholic" boards and come back here with "their armor on", for lack of a better phrase, and when someone asks a question that seems in anyway hostile the chop them to pieces causeing the other party to get mad and chop back.

That's not the case.

I don't mind, and I don't know of anyone who minds, answering questions about the Catholic faith. What "sets people off" are accusations and attacks.

A post that asks, "Why do you think that Mary was born without original sin?"

Is okay.

A post that simply states, "Mary was just as much of a sinner as anyone else."

Is not. Why?

One asks a question. The other doesn't, it simply accuses the Catholic position as being false without any apparent interest in the Catholic thought (2000 years of it) that has led to the current expression of the historic Christian faith.

"Ask away! But please, open your hearts, your minds, and your souls. Learn about the Catholic faith, but don't berate it, don't demean it, and don't try to interpret it on your own"

Agreed, and I would ask ya'll to do the same.

Why would I want to learn about Protestantism? And why would I want to learn about it here?

I've been a Protestant. And this is a CATHOLIC forum. IE, one to DISCUSS Catholicism, not for you or anyone else to surreptitiously push Protestantism.

Kirk

 

[LouisBooth]

"One asks a question. The other doesn't, it simply accuses the Catholic position as being false without any apparent interest in the Catholic thought (2000 years of it) that has led to the current expression of the historic Christian faith."

:lol: no it doesn't. If that statement is made after showing what that person believes to be proof then its a statement made by that person in their option to be truth. You can't say its an attack, because its not anymore then someone saying Dr. pepper is better then sprite.

"Why would I want to learn about Protestantism? And why would I want to learn about it here? "

This is a place to share thoughts..that was the idea under my impression, you don't see me preaching do you? nope..I was reflecting last part of the statement..which some people do quite often. Treat others as you would be treated...Just like you to use loaded language though..sheesh.

 

[Kirkland1244]

no it doesn't. If that statement is made after showing what that person believes to be proof then its a statement made by that person in their option to be truth.

Yes, but it all boils down to YOUR OPINION. And when weighed against that of the Church, your opinion is NOTHING.

And in any case, you shouldn't be pushing your point of view in this forum. This is a forum about Catholicism, for Catholicism. This is not a forum for the discussion of Protestantism.

Give me one reason why I should think that your personal OPINION of what the Bible says (because that's all Protestantism really is, a hodgepodge assortment of personal opinions being raised to the level of "Gospel Truth" -- and if your pastor won't put up with it, just pull up roots and find a "church" where they preach your idea of "truth") over that of the Pope, the Magesterium, the historical Church, the Great Councils and all the great Fathers, Doctors and Saints of the last 2000 years?

Kirk

 

[LouisBooth]

"Yes, but it all boils down to YOUR OPINION. And when weighed against that of the Church, your opinion is NOTHING"

and I disagree, Jesus valued options, why shouldn't you? the catholic church's option is just that...an option, its just based on tradition and the on the bible, mine is just based on the bible.


"Give me one reason why I should think that your personal OPINION of what the Bible says (because that's all Protestantism really is, a hodgepodge assortment of personal opinions being raised to the level of "Gospel Truth" -- and if your pastor won't put up with it, just pull up roots and find a "church" where they preach your idea of "truth") over that of the Pope, the Magesterium, the historical Church, the Great Councils and all the great Fathers, Doctors and Saints of the last 2000 years?"

This is one of the reasons I very much dislike talking to you. You're really, for lack of a better word, sad. You disvalue people and their ideas, and that is so far from Christ it's really sad. Why should you? Because I'm a christian. that's exactly what Zoo, KC, and wols where saying, but I guess you disagree with them too.

 

[Kirkland1244]

"Yes, but it all boils down to YOUR OPINION. And when weighed against that of the Church, your opinion is NOTHING"

and I disagree, Jesus valued options, why shouldn't you?

Do you mean "opinion"? The terms opinion and option are not similar in meaning at all.

the catholic church's option is just that...an option,

No, it is not. The Church's positions are time-tested, solid, and based on more than just reading a series of letters and books. The Church interprets the Bible in the light of the teachings the Bible was written to support, and has as its foundation the writings of the earliest Christians, both about the books of the Bible, and about issues that Scripture doesn't even touch.

its just based on tradition and the on the bible, mine is just based on the bible.

Your private interpretation of a translation of the Bible, which is taking place some 2000 years after the books were written, and is totally disconnected from the historical Church which throughout the centuries has guarded and preserved the teachings of the Apostles. Not a very solid foundation.

You disvalue people and their ideas, and that is so far from Christ it's really sad.

Not everyone's ideas and thoughts are of equal value.

Just because someone thinks something, doesn't mean that thought is worth anything. To think that all men, regardless of understanding, education and historical knowledge can look into the Bible and find "the Truth" is utterly naive.

Why should you? Because I'm a christian.

That doesn't make your opinion equal to that of a learned scholar like Karol Wojtyla. What credentials do you have that trump 2000 years of continuous Catholic teaching?

Kirk

 

[LouisBooth]

"The Church's positions are time-tested, solid, and based on more than just reading a series of letters and books. "

and I would disagree. I would put wieght on thost "church fathers" but I would not say that are unfaultable in their opinions.

"and about issues that Scripture doesn't even touch. "

Ahh..and i would say that scripture touches ALL issues.

"Your private interpretation of a translation of the Bible, which is taking place some 2000 years after the books were written, and is totally disconnected from the historical Church which throughout the centuries has guarded and preserved the teachings of the Apostles. Not a very solid foundation."

This is where you are wrong. I have studied history and put a high value of putting it into context. As a guide I also read works of your "church fathers" but I know they are men just as I am and are capible of mistakes. You assume I have no foundation. That's a VERY BAD assumption.

"To think that all men, regardless of understanding, education and historical knowledge can look into the Bible and find "the Truth" is utterly naive. "

Exactly, and I would wager I have more historical knowledge and education on the bible and the text there in. Again, you made a bad assumption. i am not some job blow off the street, but you usually aussume everyone that doesn't believe the same as you is, again, a VERY BAD assumption.

"What credentials do you have that trump 2000 years of continuous Catholic teaching? "

So? I can point you to people with credientals that believe as I much greater then him. so what's your point?

 

[Kirkland1244]

"The Church's positions are time-tested, solid, and based on more than just reading a series of letters and books. "

and I would disagree.


And no one cares. Why? Because this is not a forum for YOU to give YOUR opinion. This is a forum for CATHOLICS. If you have questions

I would put wieght on thost "church fathers" but I would not say that are unfaultable in their opinions.

Who ever said that they were? They were just men, and they were also Catholics. "To immerse one's self in history is to cease to be a Protestant."

Ahh..and i would say that scripture touches ALL issues.

That is the Protestant position. As such, it has no place in a Catholic discussion corner.


I have studied history and put a high value of putting it into context. As a guide I also read works of your "church fathers" but I know they are men just as I am and are capible of mistakes.

Again you accuse me of ascribing infallibility to the Church Fathers. Whatever.

You assume I have no foundation.

You have a foundation. It's just not a very good one, since you have split yourself off of God's Church, the only body which is protected from doctrinal error. You might have a compass, you might have a flashlight, but you don't have a map.

"To think that all men, regardless of understanding, education and historical knowledge can look into the Bible and find "the Truth" is utterly naive. "

Exactly, and I would wager I have more historical knowledge and education on the bible and the text there in.

I don't doubt that you know your way around the Bible. Big deal. You, an individual, cannot be more solidly grounded than the entire Magesterium of God's Church, as reprsented by not only its current leaders, but every great Catholic thinker on down to the time of Christ. The Church is founded upon an unmovable rock. In the end, all you can turn to is your opinion, and your interpretation of the Bible, and any other documents you might read.

"What credentials do you have that trump 2000 years of continuous Catholic teaching? "

So? I can point you to people with credientals that believe as I much greater then him. so what's your point?

And where did they get those credentials? From a Protestant university? Then they mean nothing to me. And in any case, you stand in defiance not only of the Pope, but of all the Popes, and Aquinas, a Kempis, Francis of Assissi, Augustine and all the other great Catholics of history. No matter how bright you, or any Protestant is, you will never outshine the combined brilliance of the Saints, Doctors, Fathers and leaders of the Catholic Church over the last 2000 years.

Kirk

 

[LouisBooth]

"And no one cares. Why? Because this is not a forum for YOU to give YOUR opinion. This is a forum for CATHOLICS. If you have questions"
:lol: whatever kirk, whatever..


"Who ever said that they were? They were just men, and they were also Catholics. "To immerse one's self in history is to cease to be a Protestant.""

That's a bunch of crap :lol: to immerse one's self in history is NOT IN THE LEASE to cease to be a protestant...oh..didn't you know that certain church fathers where cannonized..I guess not.


"That is the Protestant position. As such, it has no place in a Catholic discussion corner. "

:lol: whatever kirk, whatever. If you're in a discussion then people offer counter explainations and then you say why you don't believe them, this is NOT the polical world man get a clue.

"Again you accuse me of ascribing infallibility to the Church Fathers. Whatever."

Ya don't know much about your relgion do you krik?

"You might have a compass, you might have a flashlight, but you don't have a map"

Right, right..and wrong..so much for 3 for 3.

"You, an individual, cannot be more solidly grounded than the entire Magesterium of God's Church, as reprsented by not only its current leaders, but every great Catholic thinker on down to the time of Christ"

Funny..I bet Thomas A. heard the same thing from people of his day too.

"The Church is founded upon an unmovable rock. "

That's right, the catholic church is not, but as you have expressly pointed out, I'm not going to debate that here.

"Then they mean nothing to me. And in any case, you stand in defiance not only of the Pope, but of all the Popes, and Aquinas, a Kempis, Francis of Assissi, Augustine and all the other great Catholics of history"

Wrong again there kirk. You need to do some reading. Some of the people of past disagree with what the catholic church now teaches. If you want to e-mail me I can show you which ones and where, but I think you're comfortable pointing fingers and the like and generally insulting people that don't believe what you do, I think you would have fit in quite nicely during the spanish inquistion.

 

[Kirkland1244]

"To immerse one's self in history is to cease to be a Protestant.""

That's a bunch of crap to immerse one's self in history is NOT IN THE LEASE to cease to be a protestant...

Don't tell it to me, take it up with the man who wrote it. I suggest you read his book, "The Development of Christian Doctrine" by John Cardinal Newman.

didn't you know that certain church fathers where cannonized..I guess not.

The term "Church Fathers" generally doesn't apply to the Apostles and writers of the Sacred Scripture, but instead the leaders of the Church from the second generation through to the Edict of Milan (some Fathers, like Augustine, post-date Milan, but rarely by much).


"That is the Protestant position. As such, it has no place in a Catholic discussion corner. "

whatever kirk, whatever. If you're in a discussion then people offer counter explainations and then you say why you don't believe them, this is NOT the polical world man get a clue.

The whole world is political. Otherwise, life wouldn't be any fun.

And this is not a discussion forum for Protestants to pick on the teachings of the Church. There are plenty of other places here, and disreputable Fundie boards, where you can do that. This is a forum for Catholics. We have to put up with ignorant Protestants picking on us everywhere else we go on the Internet... and now you people follow us here with your cloying questions, arrogant suppositions and disrepectful attitudes.

"You might have a compass, you might have a flashlight, but you don't have a map"

Right, right..and wrong..so much for 3 for 3.

Even knowing the Bible by heart backward and foreward will only get you so far without the guidance of God's Church.

"The Church is founded upon an unmovable rock. "

That's right, the catholic church is not, but as you have expressly pointed out, I'm not going to debate that here.

Your opinion. I'll give it exactly the wieght it deserves.

I think you would have fit in quite nicely during the spanish inquistion.

I doubt it. I'm not Spanish. You do realize that the Spanish Inquisition was a tool of the Crown to rid his nation of foreignors, Moors and Jews don't you? The Church had virtually no control over the Inquisition in Spain.

Kirk

 

[AngelAmidala]

This is a forum for Catholics. We have to put up with ignorant Protestants picking on us everywhere else we go on the Internet... and now you people follow us here with your cloying questions, arrogant suppositions and disrepectful attitudes.

I normally don't get involved in stuff like this, but I just wanted to clarify. You do not mean all Protestants do this here, do you?

If so, I would like you to point out specific quotes where I have said something to that effect. Please.

I am not asking that to be rude, nasty, or a pain in the neck. I would like to think of myself as a Protestant who would like to know more about Catholicism (sp?) because it's a major part of the Church's history in general. And because I find it interesting. So if I have ever said anything in this forum or to any of you that would portray a view other then what I think of myself, I would like to stop that.

Thanks.

Love in Christ,
AngelAmidala

PS...I also apologize if any of the questions I've asked sound childish. I'm trying to learn, and what may sound like a basic question to you is a complicated one for me.

Edited to add this...because I forgot. Kirk, I think it was you who mentioned Augustine. Is Augustine considered a saint or not? I'm doing some of my research on saints in the Canterbury Tales and there are some references in some of the tales to St. Augustine, but if he's not really a saint I don't want to be trying to only find stuff on St. Augustine when I should just be trying to find stuff on Augustine. (did that make sense?)