Not a debate...why pray the Rosary?

[Dark_Lite]

"It's not vain" as in the repetition of the prayers involved in the rosary are not vain.

 

[RevAngel]

I guess it is a matter of theology that is not important to argue over. If it is how you chose to do it then i pray that Gods makes it fruitful for you. I however learned from said verse to speak to my Father as a son speaks to a Father.

 

[RevAngel]

"It's not vain" as in the repetition of the prayers involved in the rosary are not vain.

Any prayer to the created is in Vain since our prayers are to be directed to the creator...our Heavenly Father in Jesus name. That is the way the Jesus , the Bible, and the Apostles teach prayer. Even when the Saints at Ephesus or anywhere else asked for intercessory prayer it is directed to the Father in Jesus name.
That is why I believe in directing my prayer ONLY to God Almighty YHWH.

 

[MamaZ]

I pray to the Father also. I can go to my Father boldly and ask of Him anything. No need to go to a mediator to go to Jesus to go to the Father.. Jesus is our mediator between us and the Father. His act on the Cross tore the curtain and I can go to the Father through Him.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Any prayer to the created is in Vain since our prayers are to be directed to the creator...our Heavenly Father in Jesus name. That is the way the Jesus , the Bible, and the Apostles teach prayer. Even when the Saints at Ephesus or anywhere else asked for intercessory prayer it is directed to the Father in Jesus name.
That is why I believe in directing my prayer ONLY to God Almighty YHWH.

Well, "praying to the Saints" is actually the same as asking someone else to pray for you. The Apostolic Churches believe in the communion of saints, both living and "dead." They are alive in Christ.

 

[polishbeast]

I pray to the Father also. I can go to my Father boldly and ask of Him anything. No need to go to a mediator to go to Jesus to go to the Father.. Jesus is our mediator between us and the Father. His act on the Cross tore the curtain and I can go to the Father through Him.

So you never ask anyone to pray for you?

 

[MamaZ]

Cant ask a person to pray for you if you cannot contact them. Where is it ever written we can contact those who are not in the earthly rhelm to ask them anything other than God?

 

[MamaZ]

Scripture does not teach us that these that are now clothed in their heavenly home can be contacted by those who are still in their earthly tent..

 

[RevAngel]

So you never ask anyone to pray for you?

Matthew 18:18-20

Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.

How can a deceaced person agree with you?
We are the Saints here in this world.
Just as Lazarus could not help the man in torments neither can deceased people help you in this realm. That is how I see the scriptures. Only the Blessed God of the Universe can do anything for you. Not people who have left this realm.

God Bless
angel

 

[Cardinal John H. Newman]

Matthew 18:18-20

Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.

How can a deceaced person agree with you?
We are the Saints here in this world.
Just as Lazarus could not help the man in torments neither can deceased people help you in this realm. That is how I see the scriptures. Only the Blessed God of the Universe can do anything for you. Not people who have left this realm.

God Bless
angel

The may be deceased but they are now more alive than we are on the other side of heaven.

A more official word Catholics use for praying to the Saints is intercession. 1 Tim. 2:1-5

Cardinal Newman

 

[Cardinal John H. Newman]

Scripture does not teach us that these that are now clothed in their heavenly home can be contacted by those who are still in their earthly tent..

Yes it does.

Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).

Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.

Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.

Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14). That’s something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.

In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.

In addition, even the Early Church Fathers prayed to the saints as well.
In A.D. 80, Hermas:

"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Hermas was alive when some of the Apostles were still alive. Why didn't they condemn him? Another note: Hermas was around in A.D. 80 (when the Bible didn't even exist yet), we are around in 2009. Who was closer to the Apostles? Who was around during when some of the Apostles were still living (for example, the Apostle John who outlived Hermas and died in A.D. 90)?

Another from St. Clement of Alexandria in A.D. 208:
"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Even though there are many more, I will end with this one:
Origen:
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

Cardinal Newman

Thanks and Enjoy!!!

 

[RevAngel]

Yes it does.

Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).

Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.

Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.

Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14). That’s something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.

In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.

In addition, even the Early Church Fathers prayed to the saints as well.
In A.D. 80, Hermas:

"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Hermas was alive when some of the Apostles were still alive. Why didn't they condemn him? Another note: Hermas was around in A.D. 80 (when the Bible didn't even exist yet), we are around in 2009. Who was closer to the Apostles? Who was around during when some of the Apostles were still living (for example, the Apostle John who outlived Hermas and died in A.D. 90)?

Another from St. Clement of Alexandria in A.D. 208:
"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Even though there are many more, I will end with this one:
Origen:
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

Cardinal Newman

Thanks and Enjoy!!!

Forgive me Cardinal but to argue a point about praying to Saints for intercession in Heaven is really just pointless to us who are not Catholic, since we see it as idolatry. So using the words of men that are not in the canon of scripture is not helping your cause.

I dont intend any disrepect, i just want to lay my cards on the table.

God Bless you
angel

 

[RevAngel]

"One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion."

That is what praying in the Spirit is for.

But you, beloved, keep building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. -- Jude 20 (WEB)
In the same way, the Spirit also helps our weaknesses, for we don't know how to pray as we ought. But the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings which can't be uttered. He who searches the hearts knows what is on the Spirit's mind, because he makes intercession for the saints according to God. -- Romans 8:26-27 (WEB)

 

[Cardinal John H. Newman]

Why pray the rosary?
Why pray for intercession from the saints?
and Why the need for memorized scripted prayers?
Just a few question for the Catholic brothers and sisters.

I noticed that one of your original questions was "Why pray the Rosary?"
On the website www.catholic.com; here is a link that may be helpful:
The Rosary

If you need any more help for understanding, I recommend taking a look at www.chnetwork.org where there are many former Protestant and other christian pastors and theologians who can give you further insight on the Rosary.

For me, as a lifelong Catholic, it is hard to put my mind in a Protestant mindset and attempt to explain Catholic beliefs (from your point of view). So I often use links or take quotes (from links) and paste them in my answers and still remember to give a citation, of course.

Cardinal Newman

Thanks and enjoy!!!

 

[Cardinal John H. Newman]

Forgive me Cardinal but to argue a point about praying to Saints for intercession in Heaven is really just pointless to us who are not Catholic, since we see it as idolatry. So using the words of men that are not in the canon of scripture is not helping your cause.

I dont intend any disrepect, i just want to lay my cards on the table.

God Bless you
angel

I didn't intend that the quotes of the Early Church Fathers would prove anything. I just wanted to show the ancient historical significance of intercession to saints.

Cardinal Newman

 

[RevAngel]

How is this asking for the Saint to pray with you?



PRAYER OF CONFIDENCE
O Holy Virgin Mary, who to inspire us with boundless confidence, hast been pleased to take the sweet name of Our Mother of Perpetual Help, I implore thee to come to my aid always and everywhere in my temptations, after my falls, in my difficulties, in all the miseries of life, and above all, at the hour of my death. Give me, O loving Mother, the desire and the habit always to have recourse to thee trusting that thou wilt be faithful and come to my assistance. Obtain for me the this grace of graces, the grace to pray to thee without ceasing and with childlike confidence, that I mayest ensure thy perpetual help and final perseverance. O Mother of Perpetual Help, pray for me now and at the hour of my death. Amen.

It isn't asking her to pray for you.

The highlighted parts are directed to her instead of the Almighty. That is my definition of idolatry.

 

[RevAngel]

I noticed that one of your original questions was "Why pray the Rosary?"
On the website www.catholic.com; here is a link that may be helpful:
The Rosary

If you need any more help for understanding, I recommend taking a look at www.chnetwork.org where there are many former Protestant and other christian pastors and theologians who can give you further insight on the Rosary.

For me, as a lifelong Catholic, it is hard to put my mind in a Protestant mindset and attempt to explain Catholic beliefs (from your point of view). So I often use links or take quotes (from links) and paste them in my answers and still remember to give a citation, of course.

Cardinal Newman

Thanks and enjoy!!!

Thank you for your patience with me...lol

 

[RevAngel]

"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Hermas was alive when some of the Apostles were still alive. Why didn't they condemn him? Another note: Hermas was around in A.D. 80 (when the Bible didn't even exist yet), we are around in 2009. Who was closer to the Apostles? Who was around during when some of the Apostles were still living (for example, the Apostle John who outlived Hermas and died in A.D. 90)?

Another from St. Clement of Alexandria in A.D. 208:
"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Even though there are many more, I will end with this one:
Origen:
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

These dont say he prayed to angels nor saints...it suggests that they pray along side him...to the Father no doubt.

 

[RevAngel]

By the way...I'm not a protestant, not a baptist, not an evangelical, none of those thing am I. I am a Christian. In love and completely sold out to the will of our Heavenly Father in His Son Jesus the Christ, as I learn to follow the Spirit.
Amen

 

[Cardinal John H. Newman]

How is this asking for the Saint to pray with you?



PRAYER OF CONFIDENCE
O Holy Virgin Mary, who to inspire us with boundless confidence, hast been pleased to take the sweet name of Our Mother of Perpetual Help, I implore thee to come to my aid always and everywhere in my temptations, after my falls, in my difficulties, in all the miseries of life, and above all, at the hour of my death. Give me, O loving Mother, the desire and the habit always to have recourse to thee trusting that thou wilt be faithful and come to my assistance. Obtain for me the this grace of graces, the grace to pray to thee without ceasing and with childlike confidence, that I mayest ensure thy perpetual help and final perseverance. O Mother of Perpetual Help, pray for me now and at the hour of my death. Amen.

It isn't asking her to pray for you.

The highlighted parts are directed to her instead of the Almighty. That is my definition of idolatry.

It is asking her to pray for me. Let me explain a little more, you call this idolatry which means worship.

Explanation: Mother Mary is the Mother of God (not God the Father but God the Son, Jesus), so she then prays to her Son, Jesus for help. Following the Commandment of "Honor your Father and Mother," Jesus honors (honors is different then worship) His mother Mary by granting her prayer requests. Think of the wedding at (I believe it was at) Canaa and Jesus follows His mother's requests to perform a miracle by turning the water to wine.

So, when Catholics pray the Rosary, we are honoring Mother Mary the same way that Christ set an example to us by honoring His mother.

Another point I would like to discuss is: the definition of worship.
The word "worship" has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.

For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as "Your Worship," although Americans would say "Your Honor." This doesn’t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods (in fact, they may even despise a particular magistrate they are addressing). It means they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.

Outside of this example, however, the English term "worship" has been narrowed in scope to indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is due to God. This change in usage is quite recent. In fact, one can still find books that use "worship" in the older, broader sense. This can lead to a significant degree of confusion, when people who are familiar only with the use of words in their own day and their own circles encounter material written in other times and other places.

In Scripture, the term "worship" was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is due to God and which is not.

As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = "beyond dulia"), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.

All of these terms—latria, dulia, hyperdulia—used to be lumped under the one English word "worship." Sometimes when one reads old books discussing the subject of how particular persons are to be honored, they will qualify the word "worship" by referring to "the worship of latria" or "the worship of dulia." To contemporaries and to those not familiar with the history of these terms, however, this is too confusing.

Another attempt to make clear the difference between the honor due to God and that due to humans has been to use the words adore and adoration to describe the total, consuming reverence due to God and the terms venerate, veneration, and honor to refer to the respect due humans. Thus, Catholics sometimes say, "We adore God but we honor his saints."

Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call "worship"—is to be given only to God.

Though one should know it from one’s own background, it often may be best to simply point out that Catholics do not worship anyone but God and omit discussing the history of the term. Many non-Catholics might be more perplexed than enlightened by hearing the history of the word. Familiar only with their group’s use of the term "worship," they may misperceive a history lesson as rationalization and end up even more adamant in their declarations that the term is applicable only to God. They may even go further. Wanting to attack the veneration of the saints, they may declare that only God should be honored.

Both of these declarations are in direct contradiction to the language and precepts of the Bible. The term "worship" was used in the same way in the Bible that it used to be used in English. It could cover both the adoration given to God alone and the honor that is to be shown to certain human beings. In Hebrew, the term for worship is shakhah. It is appropriately used for humans in a large number of passages.

For example, in Genesis 37:7–9 Joseph relates two dreams that God gave him concerning how his family would honor him in coming years. Translated literally the passage states: "‘ehold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf arose and stood upright; and behold, your sheaves gathered round it, and worshiped [shakhah] my sheaf.’ . . . Then he dreamed another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, ‘Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were worshiping [shakhah] me.’"

In Genesis 49:2-27, Jacob pronounced a prophetic blessing on his sons, and concerning Judah he stated: "Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father’s sons shall worship [shakhah] you (49:8)." And in Exodus 18:7, Moses honored his father-in-law, Jethro: "Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and worshiped [shakhah] him and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the tent."

Yet none of these passages were discussing the worship of adoration, the kind of worship given to God.

Cardinal Newman

Thanks for being patient as I prepared this for you and enjoy!!!