North or South?

[Kevin Wier]

I am interested to see who wishes that the South would have won the Civl War and why.

 

[Douger]

I think that a quick victory by the South would have allowed the slavery issue to be solved peacefully and without the enduring racism that still plagues America.

Also it would have been a decisive blow in favor of state rights instead of against, which would still be seen today with stronger states and a weaker federal government which would also mean less US interference in the rest of the world.

Note that I said "quick victory" as in the case of a long drawn out war (like what actually happened) I'm not as sure if an eventual Southern victory would have done as much to end slavery and racism as the Northern victory did.

 

[keith99]

Once it was war the North winning was the lesser of 2 evils.

A convincing case that a Southern victory that resulted in succession would have been bad, not just for the U.S. but the entire workd is made by Harry Turtledove in his alternate reallity novel 'Guns of the South'.

 

[Kevin Wier]

Wait so you would rather have black people still be slaves just so there would be no racism like there is today? (Which is pretty false anyways because there was tons of racism back then too)

 

[Douger]

Kevin Wier,
you have greatly misrepresented what I said. I did not say I would "rather have black people still be slaves"
If you just started this thread as a flame trap, then you shouldn't be posting in this forum.

 

[keith99]

Wait so you would rather have black people still be slaves just so there would be no racism like there is today? (Which is pretty false anyways because there was tons of racism back then too)

You really should have read what he wrote.

He proposed that a quick victory by the South had a good chance of Slavery fading out. A far better result for black people as opposed to the hostility they face in many palces to this day. Add in no reconstruction which fanned the falmes of racial hatred.

I'm not sure I'd agree that an orderly end to slavery would have resulted, but the chances would have been higher.

 

[platzapS]

You really should have read what he wrote.

He proposed that a quick victory by the South had a good chance of Slavery fading out. A far better result for black people as opposed to the hostility they face in many palces to this day. Add in no reconstruction which fanned the falmes of racial hatred.

I'm not sure I'd agree that an orderly end to slavery would have resulted, but the chances would have been higher.

Reconstruction was the best thing that ever happened to the south, but the stupid "redemptionists" came in and instituted Jim Crow and the federal government wimped out and allowed it.

 

[keith99]

Reconstruction was the best thing that ever happened to the south, but the stupid "redemptionists" came in and instituted Jim Crow and the federal government wimped out and allowed it.

I guess you think the Morgantheau plan would have been the best thing to ever happen to Germany too.

 

[platzapS]

I guess you think the Morgantheau plan would have been the best thing to ever happen to Germany too.

The Morgantheau plan was colossally stupid and immoral. I haven't studied the Reconstruction in depth, but it seems like it was generally a good thing--vigilant anti-racists helping blacks get education and equal rights, a rebuilding and revamping of southern public schools, and a move towards racial equality that wasn't matched until the 1960s, if even then.

 

[keith99]

The Morgantheau plan was colossally stupid and immoral. I haven't studied the Reconstruction in depth, but it seems like it was generally a good thing--vigilant anti-racists helping blacks get education and equal rights, a rebuilding and revamping of southern public schools, and a move towards racial equality that wasn't matched until the 1960s, if even then.

You are viewing the reconstruction of the South as it might have been had Lincoln lived. What it was instead was the first of many swings of a pendulum that is still swinging today, creating ill will and injuring one side or the other with each swing. Look up carpet baggers!

EDIT: That you even know what the Morgantheau plan was (or if you did not that you were willing to take the time to look it up) increases my respect for you, and changes my perspective. I'm inclined to think while we may differ on points we are both people trying to think reasonable about a complex issue.

On that I want to raise a point. If 9 out of 10 who came into the South for reconstruction were really good men and tried to be fair, but the 10th were made up of those seeking personal gain or to punish the Southern white man, guess which the typical Southern white man would remember (same as with most groups). And when they finally leave, guess who the Southern whites take their built up resentment on?

 

[platzapS]

You are viewing the reconstruction of the South as it might have been had Lincoln lived. What it was instead was the first of many swings of a pendulum that is still swinging today, creating ill will and injuring one side or the other with each swing. Look up carpet baggers!

On that I want to raise a point. If 9 out of 10 who came into the South for reconstruction were really good men and tried to be fair, but the 10th were made up of those seeking personal gain or to punish the Southern white man, guess which the typical Southern white man would remember (same as with most groups). And when they finally leave, guess who the Southern whites take their built up resentment on?

Good point. I've barely read anything on Reconstruction, so I'm highly biased in one direction. Thinking about it now, I'm sure there were lots of opportunists who took advantage of a ravaged South for their personal gain. I really need to learn more.

EDIT: That you even know what the Morgantheau plan was (or if you did not that you were willing to take the time to look it up) increases my respect for you, and changes my perspective. I'm inclined to think while we may differ on points we are both people trying to think reasonable about a complex issue.

Interesting that you mention it. It was just in the last month or two that I learned about it. In fact, I think I stumbled onto it on wikipedia "researching" for the WWII thread in the History forum here. I'm amazed that (West) Germans recovered so quickly not only after war, but the cruel deprivations of the immediate post-war years.

It's cool talking with you.

 

[mpok1519]

North, definately.

There is absolutely no reason why the South should have won; theres absolutely no reason why the South should have wanted to cecede from the union, and this is concluded after rigorous research and history class.

 

[huldah153]

North, definately.

There is absolutely no reason why the South should have won; theres absolutely no reason why the South should have wanted to cecede from the union, and this is concluded after rigorous research and history class.

Agreed. Some people also insist that the war was not fought primarily over slavery, but there's no evidence for this claim. Lincoln himself said that "without the institution of slavery ... the war could not have an existence." Southerners also like to claim that slavery would have been abolished anyway regardless of the war. But Robert E. Lee et al. expressed pro-slavery sentiment, and suggested that it would not end any time soon. Southerners used the most ridiculous excuses to justify slavery, including the "curse of Ham".

 

[ahiggs]

I am interested to see who wishes that the South would have won the Civl War and why.

what do you mean wishes? i lived there a couple of years and there are a bunch of them that think they did

 

[Kevin Wier]

That is a good point. You really could argue that they did win the war. Other than a downturn the economy and many casualties during the war, the South eventually came out on top after Reconstruction was over. Racial inequality was reinstated by separate but equal. It still has a lasting effect on our society to this day. Especially considering this separate but equal was overturned until the 1950's, and was not enforced until 20 years after that.