In another post you were asked about followers of Christ who happen to Policemen who understand that it is part of their job to commit acts of non-paficist violence and you seemed to shrug it off as if it didn't matter not caring about whether they have received "the word of God", while at the same time depending upon them to preserve your own and your families safety.
Clearly as followers of Christ they have received a different word from that which you have received.
Well, I am not saying that Christians cannot be misguided on a wide range of issues or topics in the Bible. But Jesus calls us to follow in His footsteps and not our own. You will not find Jesus even once defending Himself using violence. Yet, the Scriptures say that we are to imitate Christ and use Him as our example. This right here should let you know that using lethal force to defend one self is not a New Testament practice.
I believe in time, a believer's career will become less and less important to them and they will find a way to serve the LORD in His ministry 100%.
In any event, by what you said so far, I am leaning towards the thinking that you may not believe in New Testament Non-Violence. What verses in the New Testament makes you think this way?
Anguspure said:
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Now, a good majority of Romans 8 does in fact deal with Soteriology.
Anyways, in Romans 8:1, you forgot to quote the other part of the verse that is essential to the truth here.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1).
In other words, if you walk after the flesh and not after the Spirit, there is condemnation. How so? Let's see what else the Bible says in regards to the "condemnation."
19 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (John 3:19-21).
To put it to you another way.... as part of the condemnation (as it says above here): Those who do evil hate the light and have not come to the light (i.e. Jesus) unless their deeds are reproved (Which is obviously done if they repent of their sins). Repenting of your sins involves both confessing and forsaking sin. For Jesus defines repentance for us in Matthew 12:41 by pointing us to Jonah 3:6-10. For the Ninevites shall rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah 3:6-10: You would see that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to cry out to God and to forsake their evil ways. When God had seen that they turned from their wickedness, the LORD had then turned away from bringing Wrath or Judgment upon them.
Anguspure said:
For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death.
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:2).
Notice how there are TWO laws here in Romans 8:2 and not just one.
For there is the:
#1. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (A New Covenant Law).
#2. The Law of Sin and Death (Law of Moses or Old Covenant Law).
The Law of Sin and Death got it's name by the fact that you would face physical death (capital punishment) if you were to break certain moral laws of God within the Law of Moses. This is not the case today under the New Covenant. For the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12); And if you were to stumble on occasion in sin (in your walk of becoming more holy with the LORD), you have an advocate that you can go to so as to confess your sin (1 John 2:1; 1 John 1:9) and so as to forsake it (1 John 1:7) (Also see Proverbs 28:13).
Anguspure said:
For what the Law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous standard of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
This is talking about our past life of when we were an unbeliever and not a believer. For when you read Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23, you also have to read Romans 3:11 that says, "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11). In other words, if you are of the position that there is none righteous (Including the saints), then you also have to conclude that that the saints (including yourself) have no understanding and do not seek after God, too. So surely Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 do not mean what you have been led to believe.
In fact, Romans 8:3 says "what the Law could not do" is clearly in reference to the Old Law and not the New Law. For why would any New Law be applied to this statement? It clearly is in reference to the Old Law or the Law of Moses. For the New Covenant did not begin until Christ's death.
Also, the righteous requirement of the Law is to be fulfilled in us according to Romans 8:4. These are they who walk not after the flesh (sin) but they who walk after the Spirit.
Romans 8:13 says that if you live after the flesh you will die. This is said to believers and not unbelievers.
Anguspure said:
Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s Law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.
Yes, those who are controlled by the flesh (sin) cannot please God. There are numerous other verses that say the same thiing.
5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them."
(Colossians 3:5-7).
Anguspure said:
You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet the Spirit gives you life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead
c will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who dwells within you.
A person has to have Jesus living in them in order to have life (See 1 John 5:12). In other words, a person who is saved knows Jesus. However, those who claim they know Him and do not keep His Commands are a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4 cf. 1 John 2:3-6). For it is Christ that works in you to do God's work and it is not by your own power alone in doing good works (See John 15:5).
Anguspure said:
Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no Law.
Yes, this is the heart of salvation. If one has the LORD living within them, then good fruit and not bad fruit will be evident within their life. If bad fruit is the only fruit that is there, then they need to repent and get their heart right with the LORD.
Anguspure said:
But remember this it is not who is inside the fence and who is outside the fence, rather it how one is orientated towards Christ Jesus, the Spirit in relationship with Him.
Actually, there are several passages that tell us that you cannot be out of fellowship with God and be saved.
#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.
#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).
#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.
#4. Psalms 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).
#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.
#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.
Anguspure said:
Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s Law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.
But the way out is not by following a set of rules. This is the knowledge of good and evil, rather it is by following and eating of the Vine of life, walking in accordance with His spirit that we find the way. Loving, Hoping, Trusting, Listening and Obeying Him, not some set of rules.
I am not in disagreement that we need Jesus and faith to be saved. That is the foundation of our faith whereby we seek to obey Jesus. Be we are not our own Lord's and masters. Oh, and yes. Obeying God's laws is a part of the package deal in salvation. You cannot do evil and claim you are of God. It doesn't work like that. If you do evil or sin, then you are evil. It's how you know the good guys from the bad guys when you turn on your TV or go out into the world. Granted, I am not saying that God's people cannot sin and that there are not cases where some were saved primarily by God's grace (Like the thief on the cross, Samson, and Solomon). But believers who generally live out their faith and are truly saved shine forth the light (good works) of Christ within them.
Anguspure said:
Yes, and now we are given access to this same vine in Christ Jesus, on a physical level.
Even when believers are not always in God's will, the Lord our God is still sovereign. So yes. I agree. It is the one thing that Christians who are not pacifists have a hard time accepting.
Very much so.
Those who do evil (with no repentance) are not saved (Regardless of whether they call themselves a believer or not). While God can use both believers and evil unbelievers for his ultimate plan for good, that does not mean God approves or saves those who do evil.
Anguspure said:
I am disturbed because of this saying of Christ: Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come.
Luke 17:1-3 is talking about false believers in GOD who make little children and or new spiritual brethren to stumble into sin. Jesus says it would be better that a milestone be hung about this person's neck and they were cast at sea if they were to do this.
Jesus speaks elsewhere about this.
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves" (Matthew 23:15).
In other words, new converts end up being twofold the child of hell than their teachers are (in regards to sin). No doubt, there is nothing new under the sun. There are religious people today who teach that you can sin and still be saved (or that sin cannot separate you from God). This type of teaching would obviously lead religious people to live even more sinfully then their masters or teachers. For today, many erroneously believe that you are automatically forgiven of your present and future sins. This is taking away the consequence of sin leading a person to believe they can live however they like with the thinking they are saved. For many in this camp believe they can continue in sin (with no repentance in some cases) and still be in God's good graces. But the Bible, life, and morality does not teach such a thing.
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