LDS Non-Mormons Read This Before You Read the Book of Mormon!

dzheremi

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Oh no...not that Godmakers cartoon again...now another thread will be turned into whining about that! Please get that out of here, Evan Briggs.

Anyway, please answer my question, Jane. How can you maintain that there is no distinction to be made between past and present prophets in terms of being guided by Christ while at the same time maintaining, when convenient, that the earliest sources ought to take priority over anything later, as these earliest sources are (apparently) untainted by the later 'corruption' characteristic of Christianity after 200 AD (or 170, or 150, or 325, or whenever)?
 
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Jane_Doe

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Oh no...not that Godmakers cartoon again...now another thread will be turned into whining about that! Please get that out of here, Evan Briggs.
Lol.
Anyway, please answer my question, Jane. How can you maintain that there is no distinction to be made between past and present prophets in terms of being guided by Christ while at the same time maintaining, when convenient, that the earliest sources ought to take priority over anything later, as these earliest sources are (apparently) untainted by the later 'corruption' characteristic of Christianity after 200 AD (or 170, or 150, or 325, or whenever)?
You're mixing up concept Dzheremi, as I said.

Proper theology: Christ teaches all disciples, including current prophets. Continual Truth from the source.

Improper theology: hand-me-down. No prophets, no continuing revelation, no new scripture. Just people copying people in a gaint game of telephone. In which case, obviously a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy is progressively worse and worse. Further and further away from the source.
 
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Evan Briggs

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“But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬



I present this in love. The Jesus of the Book of Mormon is not the same Jesus of the Bible.

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 
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Jane_Doe

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Respectfully, please present to me the facts. I am interested.
Ok then. For starters, let's talk about your cartoon: it is made by a man who literally made a living lying to Evangelicals about LDS believe. Not a single sentence in that thing is truthful. Heck, even the title is lying to you. Just ditch the entire piece of junk.

Now I'll give you a video about actual LDS beliefs. Let's start with the biggest and most important topic: Jesus Christ.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Yeah, another video taken by a liar!

“But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Now that's an actual LDS belief. (Hint: the video before was not of people saying their prayers, something the poster deceitfully neglected to tell you).

I present this in love. The Jesus of the Book of Mormon is not the same Jesus of the Bible.
With all do respect, you videos thus far are full of falsehoods, not actual LDS beliefs. I would suggest that you to learn what LDS *actually* believe before you can make any such calls. Did you watch the video I posted?
 
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Evan Briggs

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Yeah, another video taken by a liar!


Now that's an actual LDS belief. (Hint: the video before was not of people saying their prayers, something the poster deceitfully neglected to tell you).


With all do respect, you videos thus far are full of falsehoods, not actual LDS beliefs. I would suggest that you to learn what LDS *actually* believe before you can make any such calls. Did you watch the video I posted?

Please present to me what the true beliefs are.
 
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NYCGuy

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Lol.

You're mixing up concept Dzheremi, as I said.

Proper theology: Christ teaches all disciples, including current prophets. Continual Truth from the source.

Improper theology: hand-me-down. No prophets, no continuing revelation, no new scripture. Just people copying people in a gaint game of telephone. In which case, obviously a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy is progressively worse and worse. Further and further away from the source.

Of course, Christians believe that God is intimately involved in the Church and the perpetuation of the Truth, down the ages. The Source has never left us on our own.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Please present to me what the true beliefs are.
Did you not watch the video I posted?





If you want a 1 page text posting, I'll go with the Articles of Faith:

1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remissionof sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormonto be the word of God.

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Link for you to check them out yourself: Articles of Faith 1
 
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dzheremi

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Okay...I can see I'm probably not going to get an answer to my question.

Is it somehow unclear what I am asking? I am meaning to ask how it is that Mormonism can maintain a belief that learning from Christ is "nothing isolated to just the original 12 apostles" but is something that is characteristic of all members (Jane's point), and also maintain at the same time that if you do not quote from a specific generation or era (earliest is preferred/required), your sources cannot be taken as accurate summations of what Christianity has believed through all time since the apostles themselves (Peter's point in the other thread, which I linked to in my reply to Jane), because the great apostasy happened. These two stances seem contradictory to me because if you accept that teaching continues from Christ to later people beyond the apostles/first generation, then simply continuing to request earlier and earlier sources so as to make sure you're not doing "hand-me-down theology" (as Jane puts it) completely misses the point. And yet that is what Mormonism forces its people to do because of its idea of a 'Great Apostasy', which revolves around the idea of the true faith not being passed down.

So on the one hand it was or is (so long as you're a Mormon, even though Mormonism as a distinctive theology and faith is not found in any Christian texts of any era prior to Joseph Smith's teaching on what the Bible and the faith 'really' mean), and on the other hand it wasn't or isn't (if you're a Christian, because Christians are just doing "hand-me-down theology" from some sinner to some other sinner in the horrible 'apostate' non-Mormon Church).

This is not about dispensations or Mormon theology vs. Christian theology. This is a question of how Mormonism can embrace these two stances at the same time. And it's a question I'd like an answer to.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Okay...I can see I'm probably not going to get an answer to my question.

Is it somehow unclear what I am asking? I am meaning to ask how it is that Mormonism can maintain a belief that learning from Christ is "nothing isolated to just the original 12 apostles" but is something that is characteristic of all members (Jane's point), and also maintain at the same time that if you do not quote from a specific generation or era (earliest is preferred/required), your sources cannot be taken as accurate summations of what Christianity has believed through all time since the apostles themselves (Peter's point in the other thread, which I linked to in my reply to Jane), because the great apostasy happened. These two stances seem contradictory to me because if you accept that teaching continues from Christ to later people beyond the apostles/first generation, then simply continuing to request earlier and earlier sources so as to make sure you're not doing "hand-me-down theology" (as Jane puts it) completely misses the point. And yet that is what Mormonism forces its people to do because of its idea of a 'Great Apostasy', which revolves around the idea of the true faith not being passed down.

So on the one hand it was or is (so long as you're a Mormon, even though Mormonism as a distinctive theology and faith is not found in any Christian texts of any era prior to Joseph Smith's teaching on what the Bible and the faith 'really' mean), and on the other hand it wasn't or isn't (if you're a Christian, because Christians are just doing "hand-me-down theology" from some sinner to some other sinner in the horrible 'apostate' non-Mormon Church).

This is not about dispensations or Mormon theology vs. Christian theology. This is a question of how Mormonism can embrace these two stances at the same time. And it's a question I'd like an answer to.
Dzheremi, when YOU quote church leaders, LDS perfer earliest because your church fathers are preaching copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of doctrine. It is best to simply just go back to scripture, when prophetic revelation was still continuing.

When it comes to LDS quotations, we believe that prophetic revelation is still continuing in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. When quoting when prophetic revelation is still continuing, most recent is best, to address most recent circumstances.
 
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dzheremi

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So preferring earlier witnesses is completely separate from the LDS idea of the 'great apostasy'...? Because that's not how I've come to understand that same idea, from Mormons on this message board. When Peter writes that the great apostasy happened circa 200 or 150-170 or whenever, it is generally set against where (he feels) LDS doctrine can be found in writers earlier than those times, as in St. Justin Martyr (again, according to him).

Is it just that Peter is an anomaly in attempting to find any historical ties to the early Church at all in actually-preserved texts from the apostolic fathers? Is that not something that your religion attempts to do at all?

Because if that's the case than there's a whole new set of questions that can be sensibly asked, such as how your religion can claim to be a restoration of something that you not only have no evidence of, but have no desire to even attempt to find evidence of, because "most recent is best".

(I'm kind of not seeing the point of the Mormon 'restoration' now...)
 
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Rescued One

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Please present to me what the true beliefs are.

I present a smidgen:

"We believe the Bible to be the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly."
Articles of Faith 1

"Wherefore, thou seest that after the book [the Bible] hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God."
Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13:28

'Now, all the world today, I am sorry to say, with the exception of a handful of people who have obeyed the new and everlasting covenant, are suffering this spiritual death. They are cast out from the presence of God. They are without God, without Gospel truth, and without the power of redemption; for they know not God nor His Gospel. In order that they may be redeemed and saved from the spiritual death which has spread over the world like a pall, they must repent of their sins, and be baptized by one having [LDS] authority, for the remission of sins, that they may be born of God. That is why we want these young men to go out into the world to preach the Gospel. While they themselves understand but little perhaps, the germ of life is in them.'"
(President Joseph F. Smith, Conference Report, Oct. 1899, p. 72)
Book of Mormon Student Manual, Copyright 1989, p. 111

Salvation from Ignorance.
Many people live in a state of darkness, not knowing the light of the restored gospel. They are "only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it" (D&C 123:12). Those who have a knowledge of God the Father, Jesus Christ, the purpose of life, the plan of salvation, and their eternal potential are saved from this condition. They follow the Savior, who declared, "I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life" (John 8:12).
True to the Faith Salvation

"...the Book of Mormon remains secure, unchanged and unchangeable, ...But with the Bible it was not and is not so....it was once in the sole and exclusive care and custody of an abominable organization (Christianity), founded by the devil himself, likened prophetically unto a great harlot, whose great aim and purpose was to destroy the souls of men in the name of religion. In these hands it ceased to be the book it once was."
- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, The Joseph Smith Translation, p. 12, 13


"Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth" (Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10).


"The worshipers of Baal were far more consistent than apostate Christendom; for they had a faint hope that Baal would hear and answer them; but modern divines have no expectation that their God will say anything to them or to their followers.
"After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon." (Gospel Truth, pg.324).
Wilford Woodruff (4th LDS President)

"A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ ...From the facts already stated it is evident that the Church was literally driven from the earth; in the first ten centuries immediately following the ministry of Christ the authority of the Holy Priesthood was lost among men, and no human power could restore it."
James Talmage, The Articles of Faith, pp.200,203

"The significance and importance of the great apostasy, as a condition precedent to the re-establishment of the Church in modern times, is obvious.
"This is the only true church ...This is not a church. This is the Church of Jesus Christ. There are churches of men all over the land and they have great cathedrals, synagogues, and other houses of worship running into the hundreds of millions of dollars. They are churches of men. They teach the doctrines of men, combined with the philosophies and ethics and other ideas and ideals that men have partly developed and partly found in sacred places and interpreted for themselves" W. Teachings of Spencer Kimball, p.421

"Presumptuous and blasphemous are they who purport to baptize, bless, marry, or perform other sacraments in the name of the Lord while in fact lacking the specific authorization."
Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.55


"What is the church of the devil in our day, and where is the seat of her power? ...It is all of the systems, both Christian and non-Christian, that perverted the pure and perfect gospel ...It is communism; it is Islam; it is Buddhism; it is modern Christianity in all its parts."
Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah, p.54-55

"As with other doctrines and ordinances, apostate substitutes of the real thing are found both among pagans and supposed Christians" (Mormon Doctrine, pg.72).
"When inquiring and scientific minds delve into the narrow and bigoted creeds of the apostate sects of Christendom it is not surprising that they rebel against those dogmas falsely set forth as the tenets of true religion."
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.107

"Christianity is the religion of the Christians. Hence, true and acceptable Christianity is found among the saints who have the fullness of the gospel, and a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom." Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.132

"Mormonism is Christianity; Christianity is Mormonism; they are one and the same, and they are not to be distinguished from each other in the minutest detail... Mormons are true Christians; their worship is the pure, unadulterated Christianity authored by Christ and accepted by Peter, James, and John and all the ancient saints."
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.513
 
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Ironhold

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Please watch...



This... again?!

Every time someone posts this video, Christ bleeds another drop for the world's sins.

Yes folks, we went over this some weeks ago when it was last posted.

It was never banned; rather, both the National Council of Christians & Jews and the Anti-Defamation League of B'Nai B'Rith condemned the larger movie it was part of for being hate speech.

If you have a good ad-blocker, then here's my response.

Response to Ed Decker no. 2
 
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NYCGuy

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Dzheremi, when YOU quote church leaders, LDS perfer earliest because your church fathers are preaching copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of doctrine. It is best to simply just go back to scripture, when prophetic revelation was still continuing.

When it comes to LDS quotations, we believe that prophetic revelation is still continuing in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. When quoting when prophetic revelation is still continuing, most recent is best, to address most recent circumstances.

Sorry, but as a Catholic, my church fathers are preaching the Faith originally taught by Jesus Christ and His apostles. We believe that God has never stopped being intimately involved with His children, and that Jesus Christ is active in guiding His Church. We believe that the Holy Spirit is active and guides the unfolding and understanding of the Faith given by Jesus Christ, for the last 2000 years.

What is the most recent LDS prophetic revelation that can be quoted?
 
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