Non-Messianic Posters

Zeek · Jul 14, 2012

Originally Posted by Zazal

Chavak...you may be non-Messianic in the way it is stated here...but in a wider sense, all Jews are Messianic, it is just that many do not yet recognise Yeshua as the Messiah spoken of in the Tenakh.

Marie Lynn said:
I realize this comment was for Chavak but was somewhat surprised to see this statement in a Messianic forum.

Marie Lynn said:
Is this a standard belief among Messianics that the Jews are "yet" to discover their savior and messiah in the person of Jesus/Yeshua? Would you be referring specifically to Romans 11: 25, the hardening until the fullness of the Gentiles, or were there more in the New Testament?

quote=Chavak...'I wasn't surprised to see it, and I figured it is standard belief amongst Messianics that someday we will recognize their savior as the messiah.'

I guess that little word 'yet' just slipped out in my comment...I believe there are more Jews coming to know Yeshua as Mashiach in these days than at any time since the second century, and it is my understanding from Scripture that one day the nation of Israel as a whole will turn to the Messiah that many have been longing for throughout history; but before this event takes place there will be a huge amount of heart-ache that will still befall the nation of Israel.

It is not based on just Romans 11...but is also throughout the prophets.

I believe totally in Torah...and that if a Jew faithfully follows Torah today it will still take Him to Messiah as it can lead to no other place.

Our righteousness is only found in G-d...and good-works will not save anyone...there is no such thing as a 'good person' that can ever make the 'grade' because everyone without exception has fallen short of the glory of G-d. So I reject this sort of wishy-washy theology.

ContraMundum · Jul 14, 2012

yedida said:
But since He was Hebrew and not Greek, why would I care to call him by a greek term? It's not like Mashiach or Messiah is too terribly difficult to say....And I refuse to call him a non-name like jesus, so why on earth would I call him christ? His given name was/is Yeshua, and He is God's Messiah. Therefore, I'm His disciple and that's what I call myself. I just don't identify with the terms christ, christian (not the teachings of the christian church) and I'm perfectly happy not being connected with the malevolent history of christianity against its own and against His own.

The only comment I would make is that the people who knew Him and learned from Him had no problems with transliterating His Name into Greek or using the Greek word for Mashiach when communicating it. Works either way for me though. I'm getting too old to stress about such things.

Lulav · Jul 14, 2012

yedida said:
I'm glad I'm not alone in that thought!!

Deu 6:25 It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to obey all these mitzvot before Adonai our God, just as he ordered us to do.' "

But Deuteronomy also says:

18. I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him.
19. And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him.

And that is included in the 613 commandments.

Clare73 · Jul 14, 2012

duplicate post

cupid dave · Jul 14, 2012

Lotuspetal_uk said:
Amen! But we weed out the troublemakers using their IP addresses if necessary.

But wasn't this demand to weed out people how Christianity was born?

Isn't the gospel about gathering a new judaism and leaving the old where the Jews of 32AD assumed that they were the one's who were right about what scriptures says?

I am always amazed that denominations will knock on one;s door or intrude with their own understandings into the space of others, but are deaf to other commentary and even scared to death that they will become so convinced as to convert to new insights and leave their old ones.

Such fears are the beginning of knowledge, but fools dispise wisdom?

cupid dave · Jul 14, 2012

Clare73 said:
Well, you do realize, right, that some of your reporting is not accurate here?

Well, did Elijah create all things?

Did he atone for the sin of God's people?

Is he the mediator of a New Covenant in his own blood?

Is he the new eternal High Priest in the order of Melchizedek?

Did he forgive sin?

Did he give law as God gave law?

Was he sinless, keeping the Law perfectly?

The duplications list is superficial and insignificant.
Both of them also ate, drank, bathed, wore sandals, loin cloths, washed their hands, etc., etc., etc., but it doesn't mean anything.

Hmmm... not unless he had returned in 32AD and was the Christ,...

cupid dave · Jul 14, 2012

Zazal said:
Lol...I don't know about the 'sane and rational' tag...I feel like copying that and framing it on my wall. I struggle along with many other Believers in somehow trying to throw off much of what I have been taught in the past, and struggle to get past traditional differences, and even some theological differences if they are not insurmountable.

I find that in engaging people from different traditions it helps rid me of some of my misconceptions, hypocisy and prejudices if I remain open to seeing G-d at work in my fellow man and companions in faith and am open to seeing further change wrought in myself as I acknowledge my weaknesses. Sometimes it is not easy because of the fear of compromise...but hopefully one learns to better discern what is worth fighting for and what is best left alone.

Yes I agree there is a great deal of denigrating those from different traditions...I guess it is a pride thing...or we focus on some bad aspects of their theology to bolster what we see as our better insight...there has to be some sort of balance without compromising our understanding of Scripture but loving our brethren with a love that is unfeigned...

Kind regards. Zazal

You must also admit to the practical side of the issue.

These organized group which proudly set a sign above their heads, calling themselves this faith and that denomination build expensive meeting halls, and gather tithe paying congregations.

Bills must be paid, and a working staff must get its wages.

A fly in the ointment of what they are essentially "selling" to the new members upon whom they will rely for growth and financial support into the nest generation, and the sheep they have corralled nevery week must be kept from dialog that would steal them away to some other ministry.

cupid dave · Jul 14, 2012

Marie Lynn said:
Well I noticed my question wasn't answered, but found it to be (to say the least) very assuming. Perhaps they (Christians, Messianics) one day will recognize that the Jews do not see Jesus/Yeshua as their savior/messiah and maybe they will realize that although the Jewish people are looking for a messiah it is not Jesus/Yeshua that they are looking for because he is not the one prophesied about according to the Tanach. Perhaps they might modify their beliefs on who the messiah could be.

What about Elijah?
Arethey looking for him?

How would they know him when he appeared???
Do they remember that he must do miracles?
Do they remember the Tradition of the Seven Miracles, their own Kabbalah and its relationship to the Oral Torah??

visionary · Jul 14, 2012

Wouldn't it be wonderful that one who served the Lord perfectly had the financial support it needs to be a great shepherd.

Clare73 · Jul 14, 2012

Steve Petersen said:
Personally, I couldn't care less if you do or don't.

Being a good person is enough in my book, and Paul's too.

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

And elsewhere he explains that patient continuance in seeking glory, honor and immortality means keeping the law perfectly and living a perfect life (Gal 3:10). If anyone could do this, he would receive eternal life. But no one can do this, so there will be no eternal life based on seeking glory, honor and immortality by law keeping and living a perfect life.

Paul also wrote:

Ro 3:21-25 - "But now a righteousness from God apart from law, has been made known to which the Law and the Prophets testify. The righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. . .For God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in his blood."

Ro 9:31-32 - "the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as it were by works. They stumbled over the 'stumbling stone.' As it is written:
'See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.' "

Gal 3:5-6 - "Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard (Ed: i.e., the gospel)? Consider Abraham: 'He believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.' "

Gal 3:10 - "All who rely on the law (Ed: i.e., for righteousness) are under a curse, for it is written: 'Cursed is the one who does not uphold the words of this law by continuing to do everything in carrying them out.' "

Lulav · Jul 14, 2012

Clare73 said:
Is there supposed to be signifcance here somewhere?

Except that Peter was not Christ's successor. Christ has no "successor."
Christ wrote no letter, John wrote the letter. After his ascension, Christ gave revelation to Paul as well as John.

It would be great if you were more accurate in your reporting of the Word of God written.

I think you may have been mis-lead by the title of this thread. Just because it says 'non-Messianic Posters' does not mean that this thread is a free for all for non- messianic posters to start debates in.

For this forum, we don't use 'Christ', he is the Messiah as a title, His given name is Yeshua.

Yeshua did have a successor, and that was his brother James, or Jacob.

And to compare the book titled the Revelation of Messiah Yeshua, to the sketchy references of a revelation by Paul is like comparing a child's drawing of a dollar bill to one freshly printed at the US mint.

If Paul's revelations were correct, then why did Yeshua have to come to john and speak to him 22 chapters worth of real Revelation?

Something to think about but not to debate here, sorry.

yedida · Jul 14, 2012

Lulav said:
But Deuteronomy also says:

And that is included in the 613 commandments.

That's right!

suzybeezy · Jul 14, 2012

MOD HAT ON

Thread closed for review

MOD HAT OFF

Jere209 · Jul 20, 2012

MOD HAT ON
THIS THREAD IS BEING CLOSED PERMANENTLY DUE TO THE FOLLOWING RULE VIOLATION:
MJ Statement Of Purpose (new)
House Rules:
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here:
http://www.christianforums.com/rules/#faq_rule_0
In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic and subject to staff action.
MOD HAT OFF

Tishri1 · Jul 21, 2012

ChavaK said:
Because I honor the Messianic Only tag, I did not respond to Steve's thread regarding non-Messianic posters. I will post my thoughts here and anyone is welcome to add to them and give their views.

If Jews are not wanted here, simply say so. I left another forum recently when it was made clear by the forum owner I was not wanted there (although I was not told directly "get out", it was very evident from the post). A shame because I was enjoying it. But I don't go where I'm not wanted.

Personally, I enjoy the interactions with others outside my faith. I try to be respectful and stay within the rules, but yeah I probably do stray outside of them on occasion.

It seems to me the non-Messianics here are helping to keep this forum alive. Most people left for a different forum, and if you want to keep this
place going, you need people to post here. Why chase off people who don't cause problems (at least not intentionally, anyway)?

And to be honest Steve, you haven't been around in a long time, and you don't post much. Why is this issue now being brought up? Do you view this as a problem that keeps you from fully participating in the forum?

I agree with you Lulav about the issue of Palestinians and Muslims....and Yonah, it's not a suggestion that we leave. It's being thrown out. Which is okay, people here have the right to do with forum as they see fit.

I haven't read Steve's thread so just to explain why this thread was closed.....the title and the post is a call out to another thread and baits non MJ folks to come in and debate MJ issues which is against the rules

That was all......as far as seeking answers to the basic question I think it was answered alright as well

BTW everyone is welcome to come and fellowship with MJ folks here . The only thing we state is no teaching or debating against the tenents of their faith which are stickied above.....and no procelitising which would be pushing MJs to believe something contrary to the tenents of their faith-

Please see the stickie above to know what is important as far as MJ beliefs in this forum , as many shades of gray exsist and that's ok , just dont teach or debate about them if it's going directly against what the stickie describes

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