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Paidiske

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... and listening to a preacher who has faults?

Every preacher has faults. (Oh, how I know!)

But the way I see it is, when I preach I offer people the possibility to make new connections between the text and their own lives. Maybe I get some things wrong. But I hope that a sermon I give, prayerfully and thoughtfully prepared, can also offer the people who hear and read it something of value. And I hope if I do get something wrong, someone will raise it with me so that I can also learn from the process.

It's not a matter of the preacher telling you what to think or believe, but resourcing and equipping you for your own thinking, believing and living as a Christian.

Does that make any sense?

I'm glad that preachers/pastors might feel offended.
They are making money off of the Gospel...and that is disgusting and offending to God.

Well, that depends. Some of us are in paid positions, sure. And of course there are ministers who exploit that.

But by the same token, for someone like me, the stipend I'm paid is much less than I could be earning in a secular job. But it's enough to put food on the table, to clothe my family. It frees me to devote all of my working time to the work of ministry, which I could not do if I had to earn income elsewhere.

Have a look at Paul's argument in 1 Corinthians 9, if you need to see a justification for ministers being financially supported in their work.
 
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tickingclocker

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@Returner

You dont need a preacher, i agree. Not if you're mature in understanding, which really isnt that hard. Maturity is about being separate from the world, separate from its politics, patriotism, and other carnal things, because these things war against our soul. Our citizenship is in heaven, as paul teaches us. We are not supposed to be divided over political parties and nations, but rather be united in Christ alone and seek the kingdom, not a worldly nation.

Im not sure preachers are actually equipped to teach this nowadays though. They dont see where people are stumbling over such things, and they dont teach their flock to avoid them. Lots of people use that Hebrews scripture to suggest that its commanded to go to Church, however that was when Church was actually run by real apostles. We are however in the end times now and its better to search the scriptures and find the truth, rather than listening to any preacher.

If people truthfully wanted to stir each other up into love and good works they would be exhorting us to stop following the worldly division and contentions of politicians and denominations, and instead speak the same thing which is Christ and him alone. THey would not forsake the assembly of this website by arguing over politics and religion, but instead would use it to preach the word. However, a lot of people dont endure sound doctrine anymore, and would rather debate politics and theology.
I have a sinking feeling that pastors/ministers are very slowly but surely becoming 'dumbed down'. I can't remember the last time I heard of a bible study for teaching new believers how to study... the bible. There were loads of them around when I was newly converted. Now? It's amazing to hear of even a church bible study. If there is? Nine times out of ten it consists of some aspect with End Times. A sure draw if ever there was one. Have one on the love of God or witnessing? Three people show up, and one is the custodian there to fix something.

Reading through the works of some of the great spiritual preachers of the late 19th to early 20th Century this year as a discipline has truly spoiled me for great bible teaching. Pink, Spurgeon, Murray, Mueller, E. M. Bounds, Anderson, the list goes on and on. Today? Preachers like Joel Olsteen make me take a nap. Not rush out and earnestly win souls for Jesus Christ. He's the only "popular" one I can think of.

Yet church attendance consists of much more than just preachers. I was flabbergasted by how many folks actually missed me when I had been unable to attend my beloved church a few weeks back. Then shame set in after realizing I never noticed someone else (MUCH quieter) had been missing for far longer. That person was so overjoyed to finally be remembered by her brothers and sisters, she thankfully forgave us all! That's what church should be about. Family. It's not all about us. It's about everyone.
 
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Trouble is we are all deluded into thinking our particular faith holds the absolute truth.
We like to think, "ah at last I can relax and be on the winning team."
example... "those poor catholics who worship Mary", "those poor protestants who worship a Jesusless cross."
Just when I start thinking like that? God moves 'the end and be all', shaking my faith up!

I have a feeling He's doing it deliberately.
 
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Paul, with your first sentence, I started thinking.... What if we changed Dr. Martin Luther King's famous "I Have a Dream" speech to read Christians?:

"I have a dream that one day Christians will rise up and live out the true meaning of Jesus Christ's Gospel: “We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all Christian denominations are created equal in the eyes of God."

I have a dream that one day on every street in the world Christians will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood in Christ.

I have a dream that one day even the most talked about and despised church, sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that all God's children will one day live in a world where they will not be judged by the label of their denomination but by the content of their character, and their love for God and neighbors.

I have a dream today." And I WILL have it every day until I see His Face.

Someday the Bride of Christ will have all her denominational parts combined together in love, in Jesus Christ. Ever see a bride so beautiful and radiant that she literally took your breath away? That's her. I can see her. You just have to keep focusing at ALL of HER, not on those who want to tear your focus away to what they demand you see. They wish to imagine her without one of her eyes, or hand, or elbows, because they don't happen to agree with those bits. But she's not their Bride. She's the Bride of Jesus Christ, and He loves every bit of her just as equally.
That was sensational ticking clocker. Thank you so much.
I was starting to think I looked like a trippy hippie, after starting this thread.
My conclusion is , better to be too idealistic, than too cynical! :)
 
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...My conclusion is , better to be too idealistic, than too cynical! :)

Is that's like saying its better to be too loving than not obnoxious enough? Why, yes, it is. Every time.

It may make him as sad as we are over the state of the world, but I don't think Dr. King would mind the liberty. (And all you theological exegetists, if that's a word, please don't crawl out of the woodwork and explain to me like I'm some idiot child that there is no sadness in heaven, etc., etc., etc..)
 
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God sends us curve balls, just when we think we've got it all worked out.
Good! Keeps us focused, on Him. Not us. And, it makes us rightly suspicious of those who insist we pay attention to their viewpoints. I came out of a cult into Christianity. It's still a sore spot when encountering such people who think they have the corner on the market of "truth", as if they can sew the Holy & Just God of All Creation up into some nicely embroidered hanky and tuck Him in their pocket. After years of unending sameness of "truth", where everyone believed the same wrong things, I literally revel in so many different spiritual outlooks available among my brothers and sisters! Every one has some shining value to it. You wish you could shout to doctrinally rigid people, that it could be much worse than you ever can know. Sameness isn't all its cracked up to be.
 
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Paidiske

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I have a sinking feeling that pastors/ministers are very slowly but surely becoming 'dumbed down'.

I suspect there may be some truth to this, actually.

But if it is, it's partly because our culture is being dumbed down. Once upon a time, judging by books of published sermons, the average Protestant congregation had the attention span and the intellectual skill to listen to a relatively long, robust sermon and digest it, integrating it into their understanding in the same way that they might integrate material from a complex book or article. Today we are often preaching to people whose attention span has been shaped by Facebook and Twitter, and who complain if you preach for longer than ten minutes. Knowing at what level to pitch your sermon can be quite difficult; I have had people tell me that my sermons are "too academic" and that they want a different style. (Partly that's about delivery and I needed to learn that, too, but it illustrates my point somewhat).

I'm currently running a study series on mission of the local church in the local context, across two neighbouring churches, and I've struggled to get more than two or three people to come. Everyone is too busy, too overcommitted, too stressed to take on another thing, no matter how worthy, and a study group is felt to be optional.

So there are significant barriers to a vibrant and effective teaching ministry. I find I end up doing a lot of teaching informally, one-on-one, in cafes and the like; but even then the focus tends to be on the pastoral rather than the teaching dimension.

It's something which frustrates me because I worry about cultivating a shallow faith in the congregation, but I don't necessarily have the answers as to how to overcome it. I suspect we could make much better use of church websites and blogs as teaching spaces; I dabble in this a bit, but find it difficult to get older congregation members to take online resources seriously.

What do you think might work?
 
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tickingclocker

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I suspect there may be some truth to this, actually.

But if it is, it's partly because our culture is being dumbed down. Once upon a time, judging by books of published sermons, the average Protestant congregation had the attention span and the intellectual skill to listen to a relatively long, robust sermon and digest it, integrating it into their understanding in the same way that they might integrate material from a complex book or article. Today we are often preaching to people whose attention span has been shaped by Facebook and Twitter, and who complain if you preach for longer than ten minutes. Knowing at what level to pitch your sermon can be quite difficult; I have had people tell me that my sermons are "too academic" and that they want a different style. (Partly that's about delivery and I needed to learn that, too, but it illustrates my point somewhat).

I'm currently running a study series on mission of the local church in the local context, across two neighbouring churches, and I've struggled to get more than two or three people to come. Everyone is too busy, too overcommitted, too stressed to take on another thing, no matter how worthy, and a study group is felt to be optional.

So there are significant barriers to a vibrant and effective teaching ministry. I find I end up doing a lot of teaching informally, one-on-one, in cafes and the like; but even then the focus tends to be on the pastoral rather than the teaching dimension.

It's something which frustrates me because I worry about cultivating a shallow faith in the congregation, but I don't necessarily have the answers as to how to overcome it. I suspect we could make much better use of church websites and blogs as teaching spaces; I dabble in this a bit, but find it difficult to get older congregation members to take online resources seriously.

What do you think might work?

I wish I had gone back and inserted the word "'systematically' are very slowly and surely being dumbed down'". You do have a very good point, Paidiske. It's the times more so than anything. Our social mindset is gradually transferring to automatic tidbit dispenser, like hamster food! We are eating more than we realise, but its somehow not doing us much ultimate good. You sound very wise, very aware of your abilities, with a deep understanding of your congregation. Maybe its time you tell them the heartfelt concerns you just told us? You might be surprised that they were thinking along the very same lines. If not, help them to think like that! Pray for God's direction, preparation, and release. I'll be doing the same for you. Being honest with others may sting at first, but it fades. Except for those who don't like honesty. But then, they don't like anyone's honesty.

Seeing the sheer power and authority these old time preachers of God's Word utilized? Makes you wonder. Where did that go off to? When did we Christians think we don't have the rights to engage those in a more powerful way? Keep everyone happy? When and where did Jesus say that? The more these men of God convicted people of personal sin, the more they wanted to turn their hearts to the Lord?! Huh? It seemed nothing stopped the message of salvation then: People read the bible daily. Families prayed together thinking nothing odd of it. Packed evangelistic tent meetings sprang up all over. Bible studies were attended by almost every church member. People attended each other's churches for special meetings. Prayer meetings sometimes went round the clock. Most outside of 'regular church hours', too?! What did they have that we don't?

For a few months a while back I was forced to remain at home, and decided to watch a few of these celebrity televangelists on TV. I was astounded. Every single one spoke of the power and authority of Jesus Christ in the believer's life to affect the world for God's glory like it was supposed to be a common occurrence. Can't say I've ever heard that before in such a meaningfully profound way. Of course, they promoted their ministries. Give, give, give. And there's the dichotomy of, don't they believe in the divine power and authority they proclaim? Well, yes, they do. You don't get if you don't ask. Same principle applies to God. You don't get what you never ask Him for. And He yearns to give, give, give! Just don't use it for your own ends. He's not fond of that. At all.

It's all very confusing, even now. But it did get me thinking about 1 Peter 2:9 and Rev. 1:6, where both Apostles Peter and John tell believers (including women, guys), that we ALL have the same equal authority and power of a priest in Jesus Christ. Really? Can't say I ever recognized that significance, plodding along this comfortable path toward heaven. That was a genuine turning point in my spiritual plod. Now I know a bit more of why the Lord made me SIT STILL for so long (when doing so goes against my nature). I know He is God, alright! Like Job, I was falling into surreptitiously settling for facts 'about' God. I didn't really know Him or that His power and authority in His name... was already mine? Really? Now I want to know the why. For some reason He's directed me to keep studying those old time preachers' heart for the Gospel, and for believers ongoing sanctification I 'accidentally stumbled into'. I first blew them off as too old-fashioned. No longer! The church needs to remember and access that divine power more often today. God wants to use it for His glory. I no longer want dumbed down now.

I want GOD. It's become almost a daily prayer... demand. Hey, I want my rights, in Him. What can I say?
 
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Paidiske

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TickingClocker, you might find Jürgen Moltmann's book, Theology of Hope, a good read to give some thought to the "Why?" question you ask so poignantly.

This is one part of teaching, too, I find; pointing people towards books which speak to their particular live questions.
 
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TickingClocker, you might find Jürgen Moltmann's book, Theology of Hope, a good read to give some thought to the "Why?" question you ask so poignantly.

This is one part of teaching, too, I find; pointing people towards books which speak to their particular live questions.
Thank you for the suggestion! I'm a true bookworm. Yummy!

Edit: Just looked the title up on Amazon. Wow. "The book is NOT for the casual reader. It is single space and packed with material, but every page was well worth the read."

Ordered it. You betcha!
 
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ml5363

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I haven't found any Christian denominations that helped me grow in faith.
All I know is that most churches that I visited were more worried about tithes/donations than really educating their members.
I just read my Bible and reflect on the verses in order to help become a better Christian.



In regards to this I suggest you find a smallcountry church...they tend to be focused on the gospel and not the money/politics side of religion
 
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ml5363

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I wish I had gone back and inserted the word "'systematically' are very slowly and surely being dumbed down'". You do have a very good point, Paidiske. It's the times more so than anything. Our social mindset is gradually transferring to automatic tidbit dispenser, like hamster food! We are eating more than we realise, but its somehow not doing us much ultimate good. You sound very wise, very aware of your abilities, with a deep understanding of your congregation. Maybe its time you tell them the heartfelt concerns you just told us? You might be surprised that they were thinking along the very same lines. If not, help them to think like that! Pray for God's direction, preparation, and release. I'll be doing the same for you. Being honest with others may sting at first, but it fades. Except for those who don't like honesty. But then, they don't like anyone's honesty.

Seeing the sheer power and authority these old time preachers of God's Word utilized? Makes you wonder. Where did that go off to? When did we Christians think we don't have the rights to engage those in a more powerful way? Keep everyone happy? When and where did Jesus say that? The more these men of God convicted people of personal sin, the more they wanted to turn their hearts to the Lord?! Huh? It seemed nothing stopped the message of salvation then: People read the bible daily. Families prayed together thinking nothing odd of it. Packed evangelistic tent meetings sprang up all over. Bible studies were attended by almost every church member. People attended each other's churches for special meetings. Prayer meetings sometimes went round the clock. Most outside of 'regular church hours', too?! What did they have that we don't?

For a few months a while back I was forced to remain at home, and decided to watch a few of these celebrity televangelists on TV. I was astounded. Every single one spoke of the power and authority of Jesus Christ in the believer's life to affect the world for God's glory like it was supposed to be a common occurrence. Can't say I've ever heard that before in such a meaningfully profound way. Of course, they promoted their ministries. Give, give, give. And there's the dichotomy of, don't they believe in the divine power and authority they proclaim? Well, yes, they do. You don't get if you don't ask. Same principle applies to God. You don't get what you never ask Him for. And He yearns to give, give, give! Just don't use it for your own ends. He's not fond of that. At all.

It's all very confusing, even now. But it did get me thinking about 1 Peter 2:9 and Rev. 1:6, where both Apostles Peter and John tell believers (including women, guys), that we ALL have the same equal authority and power of a priest in Jesus Christ. Really? Can't say I ever recognized that significance, plodding along this comfortable path toward heaven. That was a genuine turning point in my spiritual plod. Now I know a bit more of why the Lord made me SIT STILL for so long (when doing so goes against my nature). I know He is God, alright! Like Job, I was falling into surreptitiously settling for facts 'about' God. I didn't really know Him or that His power and authority in His name... was already mine? Really? Now I want to know the why. For some reason He's directed me to keep studying those old time preachers' heart for the Gospel, and for believers ongoing sanctification I 'accidentally stumbled into'. I first blew them off as too old-fashioned. No longer! The church needs to remember and access that divine power more often today. God wants to use it for His glory. I no longer want dumbed down now.

I want GOD. It's become almost a daily prayer... demand. Hey, I want my rights, in Him. What can I say?

Sounds like u are craving some meat of faith and have out grown the milk stage..is a sign of maturing in ur faith..we are holding a back to the bible crusade at her church in hopes of setting our area on fire for the lord, of having a revival like those ib the past..requests for prayers that this will all be done for His gliry
 
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In regards to this I suggest you find a smallcountry church...they tend to be focused on the gospel and not the money/politics side of religion
I love my church. They do spread the Gospel and have no reason to focus on money/politics side of religion.

It's not always about the church. Sometimes its all about the sinner.... most times.

Me.
 
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tickingclocker

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Sounds like u are craving some meat of faith and have out grown the milk stage..is a sign of maturing in ur faith..we are holding a back to the bible crusade at her church in hopes of setting our area on fire for the lord, of having a revival like those ib the past..requests for prayers that this will all be done for His gliry
Are you okay? The spelling in your posts is a little concerning.
 
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Thank you. Some of the people here came to this one because of all the debating about how many angels can (or should to some) dance on the head of a pin.... or some such nonsense. Enough. I don't blame them for seeking out a quiet place to worship God, and share His glories among ourselves, focusing on HIM. Where you don't need denom labels. Just love. I just found this forum, too, for the same reasons. Please don't debate here. We're thoroughly sick of it.
Deeper Fellowship isn't just a place of quite worship of God but also a place of nondebate for all denoms to feel safe to worship w/o being attacked for their particular beliefs. Unlike the individual forums where particular beliefs are discussed Deeper Fellowship focuses on the common denominator of love for our Lord. That's what's unique about this forum whereas there are particular forums for finding a church, questions regarding christianity etc.
When the outline for this forum was put in place it was because people were coming here to debate doctrine instead of focusing on fellowship in Christ. It's not lasted long but as I mentioned at one time the love for Jesus was all that prevailed here and hopefully will once again, God willing, which I'm sure he is :)
 
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Thank you. Some of the people here came to this one because of all the debating about how many angels can (or should to some) dance on the head of a pin.... or some such nonsense. Enough. I don't blame them for seeking out a quiet place to worship God, and share His glories among ourselves, focusing on HIM. Where you don't need denom labels. Just love. I just found this forum, too, for the same reasons. Please don't debate here. We're thoroughly sick of it.

What surprises me less and less me is how consistently and intolerantly those who, under the banner of "tolerance and unity," try to silence others who contend for the truth. Hypocritically, such intolerant people are the quickest to accuse those who are "fussing over the details" of intolerance and division. But truth - especially God's truth - is not flexible, and changeable, and all-encompassing. No, God's truth divides (Matt. 10:32-39) and excludes (Jn. 14:6) and challenges (Eph. 5:5-13), which is why it is so often despised and forsaken by those who have embraced a more relativistic, and open-minded, and ecumenical "Christian" (and, ironically, intolerant) perspective. Any place where the peace of God reigns among believers it does so because there is unity in His truth. To think that peace and harmony - real godly peace and harmony - can be had through any other means is to deny the plain declaration of God's Word to the contrary.

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


2 Corinthians 4:2
2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.


Ephesians 5:9
9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth),


1 Corinthians 1:10
10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.


Ephesians 4:13-15
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ--


The more believers drift from the truth of God's word the more intolerant they become toward it and those who are careful to preserve and defend it. Strangely, these "drifters" like to pose as the truly spiritual ones, as the ones who are on the right track with God, even though spiritual depth depends upon a thorough knowledge of, and obedience to, the truth of God's word. They rebel against the pastors and teachers God has gifted and given to them as guides, servant overseers and disseminators of His truth, and in their pride soon wander into falsehood and doctrinal error.

Both Christ and the apostle Paul warned of false teachers, deceivers who would work to corrupt the truth of God. From the very beginning of the Church, God's truth has been under attack. And it still is today - perhaps more now than ever before. God has used those who "fuss over the details," who debate and refine carefully their understanding of God's word, to defend and preserve His truth. It certainly isn't the "Christians" who condemn these defenders of the faith as divisive and contentious who are keeping its truth pure and clear. They crow about unity but are often islands unto themselves. They urge peace and happiness among believers but often refuse to submit in any way to any community of them. I would much rather be part of a church of a dozen believers committed to Christ, his truth, and each other than a church of hundreds or thousands of "believers" who are proudly independent, doctrinally-intolerant and have as a consequence drifted into error and, inevitably, into sin.

Selah.
 
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