Non-Catholic's view of RC Catechism

[LittleLambofJesus]

What are the views of non-RCs of the Catechism of the CC? Just curious. Thanks

Edit to add: Including ex-RCs.........

 

[MamaZ]

To me it preaches a different Gospel than the one layed out in the scriptures..

 

[E.C.]

Puts all the doctrines and so forth of the Roman Church in a nice nutshell.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Puts all the doctrines and so forth of the Roman Church in a nice nutshell.

Is that a pun

 

[simonthezealot]

To me it preaches a different Gospel than the one layed out in the scriptures..

Yes,

4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

What are the views of non-RCs of the Catechism of the CC? Just curious. Thanks

I've studied every single word of it. All 800 pages.


Some comments:


1. It's BIG. There's a LOT there. And it's just the tip of the iceburg; all just very brief summeries of doctrines far, far more extensive. It's not exactly apples to apples, but I have two Catechisms here at my desk. My Catholic one has 800 pages. My Lutheran one has 8.


2. What struck me is the almost entire lack of substantiation. Occasionally, there's a tiny foot note that gives us a Bible reference (almost never with the actual quote). I looked up and studies EVERY SINGLE ONE of them. At times, it seemed either entirely moot to the discussion or actually made the point in the Catechism problematic.


3. It's VERY articulate. OBVIOUSLY the language is very, very intentional and well thought out - to an extent very rarely seen in religion and even doctrinal books. LOTS of thought went into this. I always respected that, and still I use the book at LOT - I just like the clarity and precision of it.


4. I overwhelmingly agree with it. But here and there, something is said that just seems unsubstantiated. A dogmatic fact is made - perhaps remarkable - either with no attempt to document it as true, or if it does, that attempt is entirely inadequate to the point made. I - at times - found myself concluding that there's no reason to determine this is incorrect but also no reason even given to conclude it's correct. And those almost always tended to be issues where the CC departs from all other denominations, distinctives of the CC. Purgatory. Infalliblity of the Papacy. Transubstantiation. Immaculate Conception. Those issues.


5. CCC # 87 makes a foundational claim that should be solidly heard before one opens the Catechism (it should be in those early introductory points). Catholics are required to accept whatever the book says "with docility" as Jesus Himself speaking. This is on a par with Scripture. I think too often people read it as a sort of summery of what Catholics teach, they are to evaluate and consider it or perhaps use it as a reference book for Catholic theology. Wrong. They are to accept every word "with docility" as Jesus speaking. Read it as listening to Jesus. Accept every letter as such (and be a Catholic) or have the integrity to admit that you don't and leave.


It's one of the most referenced books in my library. I HIGHLY recommend it for all Christians. Not as infallibly correct, but as a very articulate and typically very excellent summery of Christian doctrine.




.

 

[winsome]

I've studied every single word of it. All 800 pages.

Wow, that's more than I have done.

1. It's BIG. There's a LOT there. And it's just the tip of the iceburg; all just very brief summeries of doctrines far, far more extensive. It's not exactly apples to apples, but I have two Catechisms here at my desk. My Catholic one has 800 pages. My Lutheran one has 8.

There is a Compendium which is a simplified version in question and answer form. It follows the structure of the main Catechism and has references to the appropriate paragraphs in the main one for further study.
Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church

Still almost 200 pages, though its a smaller size book.

2. What struck me is the almost entire lack of substantiation. Occasionally, there's a tiny foot note that gives us a Bible reference (almost never with the actual quote). I looked up and studies EVERY SINGLE ONE of them. At times, it seemed either entirely moot to the discussion or actually made the point in the Catechism problematic.

Well its not an apologetics book. It does tend to reference a lot of earlier Church statements as well as scripture.

 

[GailMc]

Oh goodie! Being an Baptised as an adult Catholic, Roman rite, I think I'll share a little - the catechism I got in RCIA was swell but it is showing a little wear these days. We've got another one out that has a green cover, a little bigger than the last. The Holy Spirit is a swell guide to understanding the simple texts contained in it and if that ain't enough, you'll want to look up some of the other texts He wrote through the ages as well. In all of that I don't think you'll find many excuses for staying away from the Church.

Peace and all good,

Gail

P.S. If some of those texts leave you crying, YIPPIE!!!!!!!! You're on your way to ROME! I hope I get to be the first to say welcome home!!!!!

P.P.S. Don't ask me - I'm still nuts over the stuff.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Oh goodie! Being an Baptised as an adult Catholic, Roman rite, I think I'll share a little - the catechism I got in RCIA was swell but it is showing a little wear these days. We've got another one out that has a green cover, a little bigger than the last. The Holy Spirit is a swell guide to understanding the simple texts contained in it and if that ain't enough, you'll want to look up some of the other texts He wrote through the ages as well. In all of that I don't think you'll find many excuses for staying away from the Church.

Peace and all good,

Gail

P.S. If some of those texts leave you crying, YIPPIE!!!!!!!! You're on your way to ROME! I hope I get to be the first to say welcome home!!!!!

P.P.S. Don't ask me - I'm still nuts over the stuff.

Thanks for your input, and I am sure your fellow Roman Catholics share the same zeal of it as you do.
But this thread is how non-RCs or even ex-RCs [of which I am one] view it

 

[GailMc]

Oh shoot - how to pray for understanding: Here's a good one - Come O Holy Spirit and fill the hearts of Your faithful..........but I don't remember the rest. First, make the sign of the Cross and pray this: O God I understand too much and not enough! HELP!!!!! Oh Lord, I do believe! Heal my unblief! Quick before I get any crazier! Those darned Catholics were right and I've been a stupid, stupid fool...........till your mom gets home and says something smart like this.......save it for the Confessional you idiot! The trash needs taking out! And the car you borrowed needs gas so how many lawns are you going to cut before it runs out? Oh my!

Peace and all good,

Gail

 

[simonthezealot]

Catechism

vs.

Scripture




Justification is a transformation of the soul in which original sin is removed and sanctifying grace infused [1987-1995].
Justification is an act of God in which He declares a sinner to be righteous in His sight, having forgiven his sins and imputed to him God's own righteousness (Romans 3:21-4:8).

Initial justification is by means of baptism [1262-1274].
Justification is by faith alone (Romans 3:28).

Adults must prepare for justification through faith and good works [1247-1249]
God justifies ungodly sinners who believe (Romans 4:5) Good works are a result of salvation, not the cause (Ephesians 2:8-10).

The justified are in themselves beautiful and holy in God's sight [1992, 1999-2000, 2024]. The justified are In Christ holy and blameless before God (Ephesians 1:1-14).

Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works [1212, 1392,2010]. Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). In Christ the believer has been made complete
(Colossians 2:10).

Justification is lost through mortal sin [1033,1855,1874]. Justifications cannot be lost. Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 5:8,9).

Catholics guilty of mortal sin are justified again through the sacrament of penance [980, 1446]. there is no second justification. Those whom God justifies, He also glorifies (Romans 8:30)

Salvation from the eternal consequences of sin is a lifelong process [161-162, 1254-1255]. Salvation from the eternal consequences of sin is an instantaneous and secure act of God coinciding with justification (Romans 5:9)

Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith, good works, and participation in the sacraments [183, 1129, 1815, 2002]. Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Good works are the result, not the cause, of salvation (Ephesians 2:10)

Faith is belief in God and the firm acceptance of all that the Church proposes for belief [181-182, 1814]. Saving faith is the entrusting of oneself to Christ as Lord and Savior (Romans 10:8-17).

Sanctifying grace is a quality of the soul, a supernatural disposition that perfects the soul [1999-2000]. Grace is the undeserved favor of God (Ephesians 1:7,8)

The sacraments are necessary channels for the continual infusion of grace. They bestow grace in virtue of the rite performed [1127-1129]. The child of God is the constant object of the Father's grace (Romans 5:1,2).

Grace is merited by good works [2010, 2027]. Grace is a free gift (Romans 11:6).

Venial sins do not incur eternal punishment [1855, 1863]. Every sin is punishable by eternal death (Romans 6:23).

Serious sins must be confessed to a priest [1456-1457]. Sin is to be confessed directly to God (Ezra 10:11).

The priest forgives sin as a judge [1442, 1461]. No one can forgive sin but God alone (Mark 2:7).

When the guilt of sin is forgiven, temporal punishment remains [1472-1473]. When God forgives sin, He completely forgives (Colossians 2:13; Isaiah 43:25).

Acts of penance make satisfaction for the temporal punishment of sin [1434, 1459-1460]. Jesus made perfect satisfaction for all sins (1 John 2:1,2).

Indulgences dispensed by the Church for acts of piety release sinners from temporal punishment [1471-1473]. Jesus releases believers from their sins by His blood (Revelation 1:5).

Purgatory is necessary to atone for sin and cleanse the soul [1030-1031]. Purgatory does not exist. Jesus made purification for sins on the cross (Hebrews 1:3).

Poor souls suffering in purgatory can be helped by those alive on earth offering up prayers, good works, and the sacrifice of the Mass [1032, 1371, 1479]. Those who sleep in Christ need no help. To be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8).

No one can know if he will attain to eternal life [1036, 2005]. The believer can know that he has eternal life by the Word of God (1John 5:13).

Eternal life is a merited reward [1821, 2010].
Eternal life is the free gift of God (Romans 6:23).

The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation [846]. There is salvation in no one but the Lord Jesus Christ, "for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

 

[Dark_Lite]

And then that's when context reared its ugly head.

 

[simonthezealot]

And then that's when context reared its ugly head.

Pick one and lets perseverate in it.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Pick one and lets perseverate in it.

Ummm no. Let's not and say we did ehehe....
You can start a thread on that, as I do not want a RC vs non-RC debate here. Thanks

 

[simonthezealot]

 

[winsome]

Catechism

vs.

Scripture




Justification is a transformation of the soul in which original sin is removed and sanctifying grace infused [1987-1995].
Justification is an act of God in which He declares a sinner to be righteous in His sight, having forgiven his sins and imputed to him God's own righteousness (Romans 3:21-4:8).

Initial justification is by means of baptism [1262-1274].
Justification is by faith alone (Romans 3:28).

Adults must prepare for justification through faith and good works [1247-1249]
God justifies ungodly sinners who believe (Romans 4:5) Good works are a result of salvation, not the cause (Ephesians 2:8-10).

The justified are in themselves beautiful and holy in God's sight [1992, 1999-2000, 2024]. The justified are In Christ holy and blameless before God (Ephesians 1:1-14).

Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works [1212, 1392,2010]. Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). In Christ the believer has been made complete
(Colossians 2:10).

Justification is lost through mortal sin [1033,1855,1874]. Justifications cannot be lost. Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 5:8,9).

Catholics guilty of mortal sin are justified again through the sacrament of penance [980, 1446]. there is no second justification. Those whom God justifies, He also glorifies (Romans 8:30)

Salvation from the eternal consequences of sin is a lifelong process [161-162, 1254-1255]. Salvation from the eternal consequences of sin is an instantaneous and secure act of God coinciding with justification (Romans 5:9)

Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith, good works, and participation in the sacraments [183, 1129, 1815, 2002]. Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Good works are the result, not the cause, of salvation (Ephesians 2:10)

Faith is belief in God and the firm acceptance of all that the Church proposes for belief [181-182, 1814]. Saving faith is the entrusting of oneself to Christ as Lord and Savior (Romans 10:8-17).

Sanctifying grace is a quality of the soul, a supernatural disposition that perfects the soul [1999-2000]. Grace is the undeserved favor of God (Ephesians 1:7,8)

The sacraments are necessary channels for the continual infusion of grace. They bestow grace in virtue of the rite performed [1127-1129]. The child of God is the constant object of the Father's grace (Romans 5:1,2).

Grace is merited by good works [2010, 2027]. Grace is a free gift (Romans 11:6).

Venial sins do not incur eternal punishment [1855, 1863]. Every sin is punishable by eternal death (Romans 6:23).

Serious sins must be confessed to a priest [1456-1457]. Sin is to be confessed directly to God (Ezra 10:11).

The priest forgives sin as a judge [1442, 1461]. No one can forgive sin but God alone (Mark 2:7).

When the guilt of sin is forgiven, temporal punishment remains [1472-1473]. When God forgives sin, He completely forgives (Colossians 2:13; Isaiah 43:25).

Acts of penance make satisfaction for the temporal punishment of sin [1434, 1459-1460]. Jesus made perfect satisfaction for all sins (1 John 2:1,2).

Indulgences dispensed by the Church for acts of piety release sinners from temporal punishment [1471-1473]. Jesus releases believers from their sins by His blood (Revelation 1:5).

Purgatory is necessary to atone for sin and cleanse the soul [1030-1031]. Purgatory does not exist. Jesus made purification for sins on the cross (Hebrews 1:3).

Poor souls suffering in purgatory can be helped by those alive on earth offering up prayers, good works, and the sacrifice of the Mass [1032, 1371, 1479]. Those who sleep in Christ need no help. To be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8).

No one can know if he will attain to eternal life [1036, 2005]. The believer can know that he has eternal life by the Word of God (1John 5:13).

Eternal life is a merited reward [1821, 2010].
Eternal life is the free gift of God (Romans 6:23).

The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation [846]. There is salvation in no one but the Lord Jesus Christ, "for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

If you are going to quote from the Catechism and from Scripture please quote from them not give your own faulty interpretation of what you think they say under the pretence of a quotation.

 

[simonthezealot]

If you are going to quote from the Catechism and from Scripture please quote from them not give your own faulty interpretation of what you think they say under the pretence of a quotation.

So now people can't just read and get proper interpretation of the catechism either? Maybe you'd like to cite one of my faulty interpretations?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LLOJ Mod Hat on

Please.....no debating

LLOJ Mod hat off

 

[winsome]

So now people can't just read and get proper interpretation of the catechism either? Maybe you'd like to cite one of my faulty interpretations?

I was just about to when the Mod intervened so I will desist.

 

[simonthezealot]

You're right ll i posted my view of the catechism, i'll leave it at
~i find many contradictions~
the ones listed above a but a small taste.