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Non-Catholic's view of RC Catechism

Virgil the Roman

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What kind of sophists' retort is that? All you did was employ sophistry: you did not address my concern nor give me a reply. It was a vagary and not really much of an answer; you seemed to side-step the question. If I were to follow your advice, I'd be better off a pagan or a Gnostic than a Christian. At least, then, I'd have something more tangible than a Christianity devoid of justice and value; particularly the value of Christ's Holy Passion.
 
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ANM29

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What kind of sophists' retort is that? All you did was employ sophistry. If I were to follow your advice, I'd be better off a pagan or a Gnostic than a Christ. At least, then, I'd have something more tangible than a Christianity devoid of justice and truth.

Well, go for it. Since you are bothered by God's love for his creation ( besides you).

Go and become a pagan, Gnostic, or :thumbsup:atheist.

God does not stop saving and loving because you do not understand something.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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What kind of sophists' retort is that? All you did was employ sophistry: you did not address my concern nor give me a reply. It was a vagary and not really much of an answer; you seemed to side-step the question. If I were to follow your advice, I'd be better off a pagan or a Gnostic than a Christ. At least, then, I'd have something more tangible than a Christianity devoid of justice and value; particularly the value of Christ's Holy Passion.
LLOJ once agains heads for the dictionary/wiki! :blush:

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

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Sophism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Sophistry)

Sophism can mean two very different things: In the modern definition (from Plato), a sophism is a specious argument used for deceiving someone. In Ancient Greece, the sophists were a category of teachers who specialized in using the tools of philosophy and rhetoric for the purpose of teaching aretê — excellence, or virtue — predominately to young statesmen and nobility. The practice of charging money for education, and providing wisdom only to those who can pay, led to the condemnations made by Plato in regard to their profession itself being 'specious' or 'deceptive', hence the modern usage of the term.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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LittleLambofJesus

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Dark_Lite

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I am not God, I do not claim to have ALL the answers. ;) I can admit if I do not know something or understand it.

Not everybody claiming, "Lord, Lord" is truly in the Body of Christ. God knows who are truly his and who are truly following him, not me.

I did not say it is some 'small' group of people either, where did you get that from? :confused: The Body of Christ is HUGE!

Ok, so if the body of Christ is now huge, why would there be one dominant visible organization that's "polluted" with non-Christian teachings that has two huge visible groups within it? And why didn't this supposedly large group attempt to make the truth really known for the first 1500 years?

The only instances you could really point to are the few isolated incidents right before the Reformation (Tyndale, etc). But those are well, isolated...
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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*snip*

The only instances you could really point to are the few isolated incidents right before the Reformation (Tyndale, etc). But those are well, isolated...
My goodness! Does your Denomination really view Tyndale and the reformers as being that bad!?
Shame on you and your Denomination :p
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Not really ranting about Tyndale or such. Just using him as a possible example.
What kind of example? Just curious :groupray:

Edit to add: Btw, W. Tyndale is my patron Saint :blush: :priest:
 
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Tangible

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I pose the same questions to you. Why would God let this wrongness spread so far if it was truth from the beginning that the Church is not a visible institution? Where is the historical evidence that the Church is only invisible? Why would it even be invisible?

Your take on this really sounds like Protoprotestantism Lite. There isn't any credible evidence for the notion of an invisible Church completely and utterly separate from the visible Church up until the 16th century when Luther and co. decided it would be a good idea to justify their existence with.

In the beginning of 1 Corinthians, Paul certainly alludes to a Church that includes all those who are "sanctified in Christ Jesus, [and] called to be saints."

1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

Yet in Galatians 1:6-9 and 2:4, Ephesians 4:14, Titus 1:9-16, and other places, Paul makes it perfectly clear that not all those who gathered together were true Christians and that false believers and false teachers were also among them. Our Lord even warned of false teachers who would try to destroy the faith of the redeemed.

Matthew 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

The universal body of Christ, the Church Catholic, is made up of all those who have been graciously justified by God through faith in Christ alone. Only God knows for certain who these are and whether true saving faith in Christ is present in them.

These members of the one true Church stand side-by-side with hypocrites, false teachers, deniers of Christ, wolves in sheep's clothing, and those whose faith looks not to Christ's work on their behalf alone but to their own good works for their justification. This true Church is invisible to the human eye and quite often imperceptible to the human heart.

As we confess in the Apostle's Creed, we believe in the "communion of saints" and "the holy catholic (universal) church." In the Nicene Creed we confess that we believe in "one holy catholic and apostolic church."

That is why it is known as the Invisible Church, it is invisible to the human eye and we must accept it as an article of faith.
 
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ANM29

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Ok, so if the body of Christ is now huge, why would there be one dominant visible organization that's "polluted" with non-Christian teachings that has two huge visible groups within it? And why didn't this supposedly large group attempt to make the truth really known for the first 1500 years?

The only instances you could really point to are the few isolated incidents right before the Reformation (Tyndale, etc). But those are well, isolated...

Why can't it be polluted? Your focus on 'size' is the problem, the size of an organization does not mean God approves of it. God does not approve of many things in this world and he has not stopped or changed them.

Did God ever approve of sin? Yet, it entered into creation from his first creations. He has not stopped it, he has chosen to allow it to continue on. With this has come contamination, corruption, deception and everything else very present in any organization, even those with the name "Christian".

I do not have all the answers, but I do know that we live in a fallen world and with that comes issues. We are sinners, corrupt at the core, in need of the Grace of God.
 
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Dark_Lite

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In the beginning of 1 Corinthians, Paul certainly alludes to a Church that includes all those who are "sanctified in Christ Jesus, [and] called to be saints."

1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

Yet in Galatians 1:6-9 and 2:4, Ephesians 4:14, Titus 1:9-16, and other places, Paul makes it perfectly clear that not all those who gathered together were true Christians and that false believers and false teachers were also among them. Our Lord even warned of false teachers who would try to destroy the faith of the redeemed.

Matthew 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

The universal body of Christ, the Church Catholic, is made up of all those who have been graciously justified by God through faith in Christ alone. Only God knows for certain who these are and whether true saving faith in Christ is present in them.

These members of the one true Church stand side-by-side with hypocrites, false teachers, deniers of Christ, wolves in sheep's clothing, and those whose faith looks not to Christ's work on their behalf alone but to their own good works for their justification. This true Church is invisible to the human eye and quite often imperceptible to the human heart.

As we confess in the Apostle's Creed, we believe in the "communion of saints" and "the holy catholic (universal) church." In the Nicene Creed we confess that we believe in "one holy catholic and apostolic church."

That is why it is known as the Invisible Church, it is invisible to the human eye and we must accept it as an article of faith.

I was really more interested in extra-biblical sources. The Bible can be made to say almost anything one wants it to say. Are there any early Christian writings that clearly support an invisible church that is utterly separate from a visible institution?
 
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razeontherock

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I pose the same questions to you. Why would God let this wrongness spread so far if it was truth from the beginning that the Church is not a visible institution?

Yah, that last word there? That's where my eyes glaze over. Jesus did not come into this world to create an institution. We are told very specifically why He did so, and that's just not even part of it.

Christianity was first a Body of believers.

When it got to Rome, they turned it into an institution. That didn't stop God, but neither did it affect what the Church truly is. Something about gates not prevailing ...
 
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Dark_Lite

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Yah, that last word there? That's where my eyes glaze over. Jesus did not come into this world to create an institution. We are told very specifically why He did so, and that's just not even part of it.

Christianity was first a Body of believers.

When it got to Rome, they turned it into an institution. That didn't stop God, but neither did it affect what the Church truly is. Something about gates not prevailing ...

There goes that eyes glazing over thing again ...

Why are your eyes "glazing?" What problem do you have with historical evidence? The Bible can be interpreted in a wide variety of ways, as the very existence of Protestantism shows. Surely if it was such that an invisible Church was established from the beginning, this would be found in the writings of the Apostolic Fathers and the writings of their own students. These people were contemporaries of and one generation removed from the apostles. It's not like they are writing thousands of years after the events in the New Testament (which was written quite awhile after the actual events took place anyway).

If the invisible Church is true, surely there should be some mention of it in the early Fathers. Or, maybe they were all just interpreting the Bible (that didn't yet exist) wrong... ;)
 
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Dark_Lite

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What kind of example? Just curious :groupray:

Edit to add: Btw, W. Tyndale is my patron Saint :blush: :priest:

As an example of someone in this supposedly invisible body within the bounds of the visible body. The question was asked that, why if this invisible body was so large, did they all just kind of hang out and do nothing for 1500 years?

All of this is under the assumption that there was never any protoprotestant group or groups. Most people get around this question by attempting to identify these pre-Protestant Protestants in history, and then claim they were suppressed by the Big Bad Catholic Church. But as we have already established... that doesn't really work as all those groups had beliefs that are nowhere near modern-day Protestantism.
 
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Tangible

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I was really more interested in extra-biblical sources. The Bible can be made to say almost anything one wants it to say. Are there any early Christian writings that clearly support an invisible church that is utterly separate from a visible institution?
Augustine, writing against the Donatists.
 
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Dark_Lite

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Augustine, writing against the Donatists.

Link to the text in question? Keep in mind I'm not looking just for an invisible Church. I'm looking for an invisible Church that is completely and utterly separate from a visible Church. I believe it is fairly well-known that Augustine believed in a visible institution.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Link to the text in question? Keep in mind I'm not looking just for an invisible Church. I'm looking for an invisible Church that is completely and utterly separate from a visible Church. I believe it is fairly well-known that Augustine believed in a visible institution.
I did a google search concerning Augustine and the "visible/invisible" Church and didn't find much.
Whatever happened to the simplicity of the Gospel? :D

The Church as Visible and Invisible

Advanced Historical Theology The Theology of Augustine

..........Augustine’s theology is summarized as follows: his theory of knowledge revolved around two ideas: whether knowledge was possible and if it is possible, how was it acquired?......

........ This holiness, though, is a work of God. This divine grace comes to men in and through Jesus Christ, but in the context of the communion of the church.

The visible church comprises local meeting houses of the membership of those that have professed faith in Christ and their children; all those people who are part of the church and are alive today.
The invisible church are all the elect from all time. .........
 
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